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Albino Ball Python Died!!

Hmmmm

What happened to:

I ask that you please keep this thread on topic and if you feel the need to address other issues please either start a new thread or email me. I would like to keep this free of insinuations, insults, threats and allegations.

Because Neil has formed an opinion based on what's in the thread, now it's about Neil's integrity? Did he have anything to do with this animal?
 
OK, nip it right here. This thread will NOT become an Adam versus Neil thread.

Adam - there are PLENTY of threads about Neil that you can use for quotes about and from him. They do not need to be here.

Neil - please use email when it would be more appropriate than posting something publicly here.

If anyone wants to talk about anything other than this specific instance of an Albino ball dying or something directly related to this issue, please start your own thread about the new topic.

Thanks.
 
You are correct and I do apologize! I asked Neil a question on page 4 and felt his responce while avoiding everything else asked of him was only to cause trouble as Neil has made his points clear and those points aren't the issue at hand.

Sorry webslave,
Adam Block
 
Two quick things I'd like to address:

The first is now moot because the seller/breeder has already identified himself. However, if I'm not mistaken, the BOI is for inquiries about specific companies/people and names are to be cited. Adam, I understand your position of not wanting to smear someone's name needlessly, but that is what the General Business Forum is provided for. True, you addressed the possibility that this might need to be elsewhere eventually, but I would suggest that it belonged in the GBF and from there might be posted to the BOI in part or in whole. Even so, as I stated above, it is a moot point given the way things have played themselves out; I would just hate to see a precedent established here.

The second is this: What about the apparent inconsistencies of the time line you've offered, Adam? I'm certain that there is a reason for the differences you've cited in the time frame, but I think you need to address this for us all. First the snake's picture was taken within five days of dying, then it was taken about an hour before (or was it after?) it regurged its last meal (and you had previously stated that the last regurge preceeded death by about twelve hours). Now, it is true that twelve hours is "within five days," but this hardly seems to explain the odd manner of description inconsistencies. Any help you can offer would be appreciated here.

Let me just say this. Adam and I have locked horns on the BOI before. It has been quite personal in the past, and I have absolutely no intention of allowing it to get that way again. I have spoken with Adam on the phone (for quite some time while standing in the cold without a jacket, thank you very much Adam!), and I take him to be a basically honest person who, at times, simply has a different way of looking at things than do I and has made some decisions that I would certainly not have made. However, I do not believe that Adam has gone about to cheat NERD, nor do I think that he is intentionally being deceptive here. I just wanted to say those things so that you all will understand where I am coming from when I ask for the above clarification about the time line.
 
As I'd said before the timeline that I'd laid out was there to give a basic idea of the period we were looking at. I was meaning to lay it out in a month/year format and I myself confused that as a month/day format. I was trying to relay that the snake was in my care three days after it was purchased.

With regard to the photo. I wanted to get some idea as to the consensus of the animals appearance. That's why I mentioned the photo was taken within 5 days of the animals death instead of posting the exact day the photo was taken. Having this issue arise on a weekend night I took the photo as I felt it not only reflected the snake’s health at that time but was also the only photo I'd had of the snake to that point. I'd intended to contact James Jarchow the following day to see if I could take her in to be looked at.

When I woke I checked on the snake only to find her dead. When I went to bed she was still alive and I don't sleep well (6-7 hours tops) so I assumed when I found her she'd been dead less then 6 hours. At that point I put the snake in the fridge as it was Sunday and the UofA wouldn't be open until the following day. Promptly Monday Morning she was taken directly to the UofA so the necropsy could be performed.

Does that clear things up a little?

I don't intend to get off track at all with this issue. I'm not upset about this in the least. I feel as if the ethics behind the sale of this snake come into question and have done nothing more then decide to probe deeper to find if there are any other things that back this up besides the snake I'm speaking of and the 282 gram two year old I've heard they sold well undersize.

Adam Block
 
Let me see if I have this time line correct:

8/02 The Python hatched in New England(exact date unk?)

8/17-18/02 Taken to the show in Daytona From New England(do we know how?)

8/22-23/02 Adam receives the Python in Arizona(where was it prior to this time.. We know with a partner, but where was it kept, how was it brought to you?)

The python appeared okay and ate 5 times (once a week?)

After the 5th or 6th time eating, it regurgitated 2 days later

Within 12 hours it died.

If my math is correct from what I gather from the post, this would have placed it dying the very end of Sept or very early Oct. That would have made it under 2 months old

It also seems this would have placed a hatchling traveling for over a week either by plane, but I think from what I have picked up, by auto/truck.

Is this correct? Please correct or fill in any dates that are wrong
 
Now it has all come to a head. Adam, your trying to insinuate that this make believe genetic problem is with N.E.R.D.'s animals. Kevin and NERD are some of the most well known and respected breeders and sellers in the Reptile industry today. Now I know why you would not state their name because it really shows that the possibility of a genetic problem is not there. I would suggest that you take this whole situation and learn from it. Something happened to the snake while it was in your care. There is no responsibility on Kevin or NERD PERIOD.
 
quality

I have read through this thread and found it very interesting. I do not know what may have happened here for sure, in fact none of us do. I do know that whether you like Kevin or not, his collection (especailly ball pythons) is second to none. The quality can be seen just by looking at his displays at shows. I know his animals are kept in the best caging and under all of the right conditions. As far as i am concerned there is no misrepresention of any animals that he sells. This is the first time i have ever heard of a problem with animals from this company in the 15 years i have been in this business. Like i said, exactly what happened to this animal, who knows? I just don't feel like anyones company should suffer from this forum if it is not completely backed up.
 
"I just don't feel like anyones company should suffer from this forum if it is not completely backed up."

Let me just say that people (and/or their companies) do not "suffer from this forum" unless one of two (or both) scenarios is/are true:


1. Proof is offered by an injured party which shows the person in question to be a "bad guy" in the true sense of the term

Or . . .

2. Someone who has been accused acts a fool and causes everyone's opinions of him to drop precipitously


These are the only two ways I have ever seen a person's reputation be damaged here on the BOI. I have seen variations on these two themes over and again, but it is always well deserved whenever someone's reputation suffers, in my opinion.

I'm not saying either party in this discussion has damaged his reputation by what has thus far been posted. I just wanted to address what was worrying the poster above.
 
Regardless of what Kevin's or Adam's reputations may be, looking at this based on what has been said by the two parties involved, the evidence is inconclusive as to who was responsible for the snake's demise. I think it is illogical to say that it could not possibly be Kevin's fault simply because he is Kevin. The man has a good reputation, a lot of people know who he is, but that does not make him infallible.
 
The sad truth is, snakes die...as do every other living thing.

Why must there always be blame? The animal was drinking, eating, soaking...and while it may have developed gout AT ANY POINT, how would one have known that? Did everyone involved with that animal act responsibly in the manner it which it was cared for? I'm quite certain they did, to the best of their ability and knowledge.

I've never met Adam, but I have no doubt that he's quite capable of caring for ball pythons of any age. I did meet Kevin at the White Plains show a few months ago, and each of his animals were beyond reproach and gorgeous. I can't imagine that Kevin doesn't know how to care for ball pythons, either....hatchling or not.

Adam, are you thinking that this is a genetic defect that is manifesting itself for the first time in this clutch? If so, can you conclusively say how many animals were born of this clutch, and how many of them perished because of gout? It seems that a genetic predisposition to gout is a long shot, and the likelihood of that decreases exponentially if you're talking about one animal. Throughout this, has anyone else come forward that has another animal from that clutch that has died? Has the confusion over which animals were from which clutch been cleared up?

I just think that entertaining the option of this being a genetic defect is really a wild hare with the information that exists.

In your initial post you stated that:

Per the breeder this animal was born in August and based on this information there is no possible way the time frame of two months would have allowed the animal to be dehydrated for a long enough period of time that it’s uric acid or uric salt levels could have reached a point to cause it’s death from gout as opposed to dehydration. With that in mind the conclusion is that this overproduction of uric acid and salts may be the result of a genetically inherited defect.

I know you've researched the causes of gout. Have you researched whether or not it is possible for a hatchling to become dehydrated over the time frame of 2 months, or are you basing that assumption on something else?

You stated that you thought the snake looked "like crap". What did it look like when you got it? If you didn't think it was in good condition, did you contact the seller then? Did you take it to a vet? Your posts indicate that you didn't think a thing was wrong with the snake until the regurge, yet you think the snake looked like crap. One regurge is not going to change an animals appearance noticably at all.

I just think that maybe there's alot of pride involved here. Adam stated that he hadn't had a snake die for no reason in a long time. He obviously feels he did everything right with this snake. So does Kevin. Most likely they both are right. Sometimes animals will develop a condition that is unforeseeable. IT HAPPENS. It doesn't happen often with good breeders/keepers, and both Adam and Kevin certainly fit into that category. Yet, it can and does and WILL happen.

I think there's alot to be learned from this thread, from this situation, if the primary agenda of proving who is at fault can be dropped.
 
And the Truth shall set us free.....

Well, I got what I was looking for and much, much more. I suspected from the beginning that it was one of a small handful of breeders in the US. I figured either Kevin, Dan and Collett Sutherland, Bob Clark, Ralph Davis or possibly 1 or 2 others who's names don't ring quite as loudly. BHB and Ralph were eliminated fairly quick so I was just waiting to see where it landed. Guess I should have known. I didn't figure it was Bob as he'll tell you he's not as "handy" at breeding the ball pythons as he is with burms and retics (still misses as much as he hits with breeding efforts sometimes.) So, that pretty well eliminated him and left only a couple more.

Darnedest thing is that if you want to know all about ball pythons, you go to the most knowledgable and that leaves the Sutherlands and Kevin...coast to coast. Want to know about high-end, perhaps Ralph needs mentioned, but heck, it seems that 2 names generally ring loudest when talking balls.

I'm glad that Kevin posted here and at least told his side of things. What I found funny is that my previous post seems almost a premonition of what was to come. (don't believe me, just go back a few pages and take a look.) I remember a few years ago when I needed some serious advice on a ball python and didn't have a way to get a photo to send for a visual aid. Kevin spent the better part of an hour on the phone with me and I'd done little more than write back and forth on a newsgroup once in while. I wouldn't know the man if he walked up and kicked me in the shin (of course, the same is true with Adam.) But I do know that I'd buy an animal from him without hesitation. Strange thing is that I believe I'd do the same with Adam. So, which one is right? Which one do I trust? One thing that my parents drilled into my head when my first wife left and we got divorced was "there's always 2 sides to every story and both will claim that their side is right." I'd trust and purchase from either of these guys.

So, my take is that regardless of blame or errors, this was simply an extremely unfortunate incident to which there may never be an answer. Lessons learned? Sure. But probably not the kind some would like to have been learned. Myself, I learned about an ailment which can and does attack snakes and I learned about ways it can happen. Smarter, wiser, glad? You bet.

Kev, thanks for letting us all know it was you who was going unnamed here. Considering the way it was going down, I'd say it took a pretty "big" man to jump up and say "hey, it's me! and here's my side of things." A lot of folks would have simply set back and let it play out while remaining silent. Kudos to you and all I can say is..."integrity before our eyes."

David
 
Well, what about this?

You know, I think you're all missing the point by a long shot. There is no blame, the animal is dead and weather it was caused by Kevin or myself doesn't matter to me. I've also never said it was genetic. I don't know how it got gout and haven't left any possibility out. For all I know it wasn't able to or just didn't drink water weather it was there or not. None of those are my points but those are the only things being focused on.

As of yet not one person including NERD has addressed the 282 gram two year old they've sold. Not one person has looked at the issue and motive behind them selling an animal fresh out of the egg and not mentioning it.

I don't have an issue with Kevin as a person. I have an issue with the way he dealt with me on the phone. Animals die and I don't mind loosing the money. I do mind a breeder telling me without a doubt his animals are fine and there isn't a chance there could have been an issue on his end. I do mind buying an animal out of the egg and not being told this. I do mind hearing this breeder sold somebody else a 282 gram two year old ball.

If you want to focus on some things why don't you ask Kevin himself, if that's possible?

One thing I found odd, look at Kevin's post on here signed as Kevin. Look at the writing style closely.

I received a response to a PM I sent Kevin from Kara. Here is a quote and writing style sample from that PM:

Adam, Hope you don't mind me speaking for Kevin - we often do so for each other. Evidently several things between your post & the phone conversations (and emails) you've had with Kev were written out of context in your post. You gave "your side" of things, so did Kevin. Between your emails and your posts, there are several things mentioned that could be construed at veiled threats, so considering the way you word things (which I'm sure you do) might not be a bad idea.

You will note the same style appears in the post signed as Kevin himself. That's fine as many people use the same grammar. However, I was looking at Kevin's distinct style of writing in an email he sent me and something seems fishy to me. Here's a sample of that:

Hey Adam...why did you start posting all over the board of inquiry? Someone told me you did. I know very little about that stuff.

The het was a BABY!! Not a yearling!!!!! I think you have the snakes mixed up!

I am going to track down where the other albino littermate that went went too(in FLA).....I want to see if there was any problems there..

If you notice, not one use of a comma in Kevin's email even though they grammatically were called for. Also, there are a huge number of exclamation points and most sentences are ended with multiple punctuations. Neither the style of the post in the BOI however following suit with Kara’s writing style.

This may of course be chance but I don't know anybody that uses two sets of grammar! My question is, the email was from Kevin's email address and I don't know whom this post was from, Kevin or Kara? It may be Kevin but I would find it fairly upsetting if he is sending people here to post and sign his name.

With that I would like to ask:

1) Did Kevin write the post on the BOI?
2) Why was your 2 year old snake only 282 Grams?
3) Was this snake given water while on it's way to the show?
4) You mention the great record keeping you maintain, would you be willing to tell us who else bought babies from that clutch?
5) How many meals was that baby fed before being sold?
6) We've established your excellent reputation, with that said, why did you choose to bring such a young baby to be sold at the show?

I think these are all fair questions and would leave a foundation for where this thread should be taken. I have the answer to a few of these for fact but I would like to remove all doubt and hear what Kevin has to say before I address anything else.

Thanks for reading,
Adam Block
 
Adam,

I think that you have way too much time on your hands by trying to grasp at straws by this new conspiracy theory about whether or not it was Kevin who posted or Kara.

I am very sorry about your ball python. Like others have said, this happens and there is nothing anyone can do. I have had snakes die before, and it was years after purchase. After reviewing everything I did and find no logical explanation, the fact remains that animals die, and a lot of the time we will never find out why.

If I were you, instead of having a friend buy snakes for you, especially expensive ones, save those purchases for when you are able to be there or are able to correspond personally and ask all the questions you want to ask and find out the information you need to know. That is what I would do. By doing that, you may have saved yourself a lot if not all of this by perhaps deciding not to purchase the snake.

Take care!

Billy Fraser
 
The time line on the first page of this thread gave the impression that the BP didn't even shed before it was taken away to the show. "8/02" "born in the same month" Those facts change everything.
I have purchased several Hets from NERD including 1.1 Het High Contrast Albino. All arrived healthy and plump and ate a defrosted rat within3- 4 days of arriving. All were at least 5 mos old except the .1 HetHiC Alb. My records show that she was hatched in August 2001 and she arrived @ the airport 10/11/01 so she wasn't necesarily 2 mos old when I recieved her. My mistake. They are all healthy adults now and have never had any health issues.
I also find it very hard to believe that Kevin would have and sell a 282 gram 2 year old Ball Python or that one would live for two years @ that weight. I received a 5 month female from him that weighed 625 grams.
I wouldn't hesitate to purchase more animals from Kevin.
I'm sorry about your loss Adam.
Rob
 
Adam,

Well, now these are all points that are way off the initial thread, but what the heck....
Secondly, if you would like to stick to saying the het was a baby you are surely helping my case, as that snake was 200 grams heavier then the albino. It may have been a littermate but is sold you sold it as a yearling. I would very much watch what you point out as fact and fiction as I intend to post the receipt and the report from the UofA so before you state fact think about what I may have to back up my story.
I think you should do that. Kevin has already said they were littermates. If you have proof that they were represented differently, post it. The necropsy report would be good too.
Kevin, you've also yet to address the 282 gram 2 year old you sold to Rusty Davis that ended up dying.
I think Kevin addressed that with:
I have no idea about this other person and if they did buy anything from NERD.
Get Rusty Davis to post the relevant information.
12) The snake had a 1275-mile trip down to Daytona with or without water.
Kevin says the snake had water. How about that 2000 mile trip from Daytona to Tucson? How many days did it take, and what were the conditions?
Not one person has looked at the issue and motive behind them selling an animal fresh out of the egg and not mentioning it.
Kevin stated:
The clutch had hatched out prior to the show and had shed and began feeding, this period is typically at least 4 weeks before they understand what food is and begin to act like they understand what life is all about. All of the animals were feeding and fine when I brought them to the show, this fact is simple.
Now, it would be good if Kevin posted an actual hatch date, but keep in mind, Adam, that your dates/times, etc. have been a little sketchy on this one. Additionally, it seems you have vouched for your partner's knowledge of herps. With a snake that size, how old did he think it was? Did he ask? What was he told?
1) Did Kevin write the post on the BOI?
For the life of me, I can't understand what you're getting at here, except that possibly Kevin took the time to read the post and correct any grammar/spelling/yadayadayada before clicking that send button. Or maybe he had Kara type for him? Does it matter? Are you thinking maybe Dark Villain is involved here as well?

Adam, come on. Read your first post. Read your latest post. Do you see a big swing?

You said YOURSELF the snake was healthy and eating and drinking. YOU WEREN'T DISSATISFIED WITH THE SNAKE OR ITS CONDITION UNTIL IT DIED SUDDENLY. Now you think the snake was too young to be sold. Now it may not have had water at the show. Now Kevin has a history for selling 2 year old emaciated snakes.

Adam, you believed that snake was healthy. Kevin believed that snake was healthy. It was obviously thriving when you received it and continued to for several weeks. No one's fault. Let it go.
 
Adam,
In my opinion I would either prove it a genetic problem (if you can) or something resulting from the breeders practices!
If you can't do either one of those. I would let it go!!
As far as, this other guy (Rusty Davis)! Why is he not on here stateing his problems??
Kevin at Nerd is a top notch guy! I have spent hours on the phone with him while he was nice enough to answer my questions. I also personally know of an incident involveing another guy that Kevin made good on.
I am not saying this excuses him from any faults! We are all human. I am just saying prove it or let it go!
Just my opinions!!
Gilbert Thompson
 
My understanding is the demise of the ball python was caused by a build up of uric acid in the animal (gout). I won't pretend to be an expert on this subject but I can tell you I've seen many animals over the years with calcium salt blockages in the small intestinal tract area just prior to the vent. Whenever a new animal comes in or I inspect animals at a show it's one of the many things I check for. It tells me how aware the seller is of the animal's condition prior to sale and also explains why sometimes an animal looks bloated in the posterior area. In my own collection I constantly monitor for these white chaulky buildups by palpitating the rear ventral surface of EVERY animal I own on at least a weekly basis and each time I handle them. If I do detect a blockage I gently message the lumps towards the vent and out. Once the ball or lumps escape an immediate noticeable gush of urine follows sometimes under considerable pressure. From my personal experience with snakes this condition can happen in as little as two weeks. I'm not sure of the cause but whatever the reason I'm quite certain the animal's health is in jeopardy if the blockages remain unchecked.
In larger animals this is virtually never a problem but I do see it frequently in yearlings or less. The reason I'm bringing this up is, isn't it possible that this type of blockage could have caused the buildup of uric acid in the animal leading to it's death? After all if excretion is blocked the urine has nowhere to go and the snake will build up toxic levels of uric acid in it's system as a result. I also believe this may have been the reason why the animal regurged it's meal. The food from it's stomach simply had nowhere to go. With the regurge now even more fluids were lost furthur concentrating the uric acid in the animal's system and it may have just been the final straw.
Again, I'm not an expert but I do believe something as simple as this condition may have been the culprit for the Gout. I bet if each of you who reads this checks the animals in your collection right now you may find these deposits present and up until this point have never given it a second thought. Perhaps 99.9 % of the time nature corrects itself by eventually expelling this matter. There is, however, that 0.1% chance that it may not and a dead animal's the result. Everyone who's ever owned snakes has seen this white calcium salt excreted and knows what I'm talking about. Isn't it possible something as simple as this caused this animal's death?
In the past I've brought animals into NERD for Kevin to personally examine as they're only 30 min. from my location here in Southern NH. You know what one of the first of many things he does upon examining the animals? You guessed it, he palpitates the ventral surface from head to vent looking for any problems. I think anyone out there who doesn't do the same should consider adding this as a standard regiman of inspection for their animals. I know it helps me sleep better at night especially when big ticket high end animals are involved. Just a thought.
 
It's great to hear all of these assumptions from you folks and it's nice that you're taking the time to post. However, what you think is something totally different then what Kevin may have to say. Why don't we, including myself leave any further posts to stay on topic.

If you have something good to say about Kevin say it. If you have had something like what I've outlined happen please say that as well. Otherwise, there is no need to assume as Kevin is posting and I am posting. If he chooses not to respond to my questions I'll have my answers, if he chooses to I'll have answers. Either way Kevin's responce or lack of will very much help me clear up my thoughts in this matter.

At this point I can't understand what any other posts asking questions about this can do. If nobody is concerned with the things I've asked of Kevin that's good enough for me. I wouldn't drop another $3000 plus with somebody who does business like that but that's only my feelings on it.

Adam Block
 
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