Albino Ball Python Died!!

[CheriS]

Adam

I think you should name the breeder of this very young sold snake, we can already see on this thread some to avoid that feel selling ones a few days old and the stress of a trip/show does not matter to them.

For us that beleive this is dangerous to very young and that want to avoid buying anything from anyone that advocates that, this would be a service and help them avoid problems later on that the animals could have suffered unknown to us.

Even if bought from their locations when the animals are older, we would have no assurance that they had not be exposed to the same situatiuon like transit across county and shows, under less than ideal circumstances PRIOR to us buying them.

People can use their own judgment if they want to deal with someone who practices business like this and feel it is appropriate

Like I said earlier, they can not be held legally responsible, but they can be held ethically responsible by others that feel differently if we know who they are. That makes this post a information post and proper for this board.

That not saying they are at fault, you can not prove that, you are simply saying this person sold reptiles only a few days old under such circumstances and this baby died of gout which is known to take several weeks to become visable(many times too late) and can be caused by stress to too young reptiles, lack of proper temp/fluids and this is an option to avoid the same problem.

This post also serves as an information source to breeders that were not aware that gout can and has develop several weeks later in stressed young snakes who go for even a few days without water and proper temperature. Making it a valuable post to them and their future hatchlings as it informs others of a possbile risk to avoid and they can take measure to assure that does not happen

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Adam,

I have been reading this entire thread and I have decided to post. First off, there is NO PROOF in this case that there is a genetic defect. Therefore there is no responsibility for the seller. The animal was outwardly healthy, and showed great health for the months you had the snake. It is a tragedy that the snake perished, but without any proof that there is in fact a genetic flaw, and that the seller/breeder knew about the flaw there is nothing that can be done. Some sellers will honor and give a replacement long after their guarantee is over but that it completely up to the seller/breeder and not the buyer. I can understand how you feel about the snake and the desire to want a replacement but like I said it is the sellers call and not the buyer, partner of the buyer, or a third party like in all of us here at the BOI. I myself have had situations that happened months down the road after making large purchases of animals (animals perished for no apparent reason even after Necropsy) and I did not expect the seller to do anything about it. As far as the Gout situation, a baby ball Python can become dehydrated in a matter of 2 days if the animal is not drinking on its own. Was this snake witnessed drinking on its own all the time? I have seen baby Balls drink without problems for weeks and then all of a sudden decide they do not want to drink from a bowl and require daily misting to ensure they stay fully hydrated. I am not saying this is what happened with your animal but it could be a possibility.

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Rob.... I'm SO sorry, buddy.... but, I just CAN'T resist this one.... I just LOVE this line YOU wrote....

...animals perished for no apparent reason even after Necropsy)...

You mean.... they even perished AFTER the necropsy???? (ya think?).... lmao

That was just perfect!... ROFLMAO

But, to get on subject.... you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!.... As I've said from the beginning.... I'm going with the breeder on this one!

OK.... Time to watch the BUCS KICK BUTT!
(27-10, BUCS WIN!)

....Neil

 

[Arboreals of the Rainforest]

I have to agree with Rob on this one. He makes some great points. Did you witness the animal drinking daily in you care? Most probably not is the honest answer. I have a nice colony of higher end animals and I can honestly say that is my answer and I look in on them every night.

It is highly possible that animal was eating and simply to stressed to drink in your care and developed gout weeks after you got it home. That, in and of itself is not genetic and is not the original breeders fault. Seems kind of hard to pin point what the real cause of the problem was and who is at fault.

The other point I wanted to say, is, when does the responsibility of the animal become the buyers and not the sellers?

In this case, the breeder sold a very young animal in outwardly perfect health and the buyer accepted that fact when they purchased it. I know I give a 30 day no if's, ands or buts return policy. But much after that your on your own. To many things can happen such as this case that can't be linked to the original owner/breeder. You can't prove genetics, you can't prove it didn't have water in his care, you can't prove that it drank enough in your care to not develope gout. When do you feel it is your responsibility to properly care for and keep healthy the animal in your charge and accept full responsibility? When is the seller no longer to blame? Poor husbandry, lack of knowledge, inability to assess problems prior to them becoming fatal, any number of things that are not in the sellers control can ultimately lead to the death of any animal. Not that these are the cases here. But possible.

I am not busting your chops or placing blame on anyone, but simply playing the devils advocate in this one.

When is it no longer the sellers fault?

What you're saying is that if somebody sells an animal. And say this snake has IBD (like gout incurable) and when you get the snake it looks to be in excellent health. You're saying that if it dies two months later because it was sold to you with IBD that the buyer is out the money and the seller has no accountability there?

If you know it came with IBD why wait 2 months. From a sellers perspective, the animal was healthy and fine in his care and suddenly ended up with IBD 2 months later in your care? As a seller I would question that scenario HIGHLY.

On the same accord you're also saying that if a snake is sold to you with some protozoa and needs to be taken to the vet that the buyer is 100% responsible for any costs in bringing the animal back to health?

Depends on what protozoa and when you found it. 2 months later, most likely not. Could have gotten it any number of ways in your care. Very first poop in your care and its positive, yes.

 

[Adam Block]

You're all making some very valid points. However, not one of them applies to this situation. Please go to Google.com and do a search on gout in snakes. In doing so you will find the animal died due to a condition over a long period of time and it could not have played out in the 6 weeks the animal was in my care. What happened to my snake has happened 1000s of times over the past 10 years all in animals less then 2 months old.

To drive that point home, a local pet store bought 500 CH balls last year and based their price on a 50% loss. Each and every person that bought one and had it die within a couple months got a replacement snake. In the end 200 of the 500 died. Please before you comment again on this, look into gout and answer based on what you know and not what you think.

I feel a seller has the responsibility to provide animals that are healthy at the time of their sale. That was not the case with this animal. If you think a little more about this. How many breeders when faced with having a clutch worth $15,000 would decline taking them to the show in favor of their health when faced with that amount of money? I can't answer that and don't say it applies here; I do feel however that many snakes are bred or sold when they shouldn't be based on money.

As for the snakes drinking. I of course can't say it drank each and every day. I will however say I never saw the snake go more then 5 days without taking a dip in it's water dish.

Adam Block

 

[Neil Gubitz]

Adam.... sorry, pal.... but, in this instance, you are way out of line.... YOU have NO CLUE how that animal got gout.... I don't care what ANY book says.... you might know what causes it, in MOST instances, BUT NOT THIS ONE!.... You have no right at all to blame the breeder for this one.... NONE!!.... Where is your PROOF??.... It just goes to prove my point, in the very beginning of this thread, as far as your MOTIVES were.... There is no way in hell that YOU will take ANY BLAME for this, will you??.... I'm sure there's absolutely NOTHING that you could have done for this to happen???.... Obviously.... it HAS TO BE THE DEALER.... right???.... WRONG!!.... You are coming up with the biggest load of crap to TRY and persuade YOURSELF.... you're certainly NOT persuading us.... You KNOW he had the snake for a very short time.... yet, YOU bought it anyway??.... Caveat Emptor.... and you've been doing this for TWENTY YEARS???.... YOU should have known better!.... Don't, for one minute, blame the breeder for this.... why is YOURS the only one that died from that clutch??.... Crap happens.... sometimes you just have to live with it, and mark it off to experience.... I bet the next time, you're probably going to ask for a HEALTH guarantee of some sort.... which is all fine and good.... had you asked for one this time, you MIGHT not be in this situation.... of course, I STILL don't know ANY dealer or breeder who is going to guarantee the health of their animals for 2 MONTHS???.... Do you??

....Neil

 

[Arboreals of the Rainforest]

OK Adam, I did as you suggested and came with this;

GOUT IN REPTILES


by
Edward M. Craft
Gout is a condition that is commonly presented in reptiles that are fed a diet that is high in the wrong type of proteins. Proteins are an important part of the diet for all animals, to include reptiles. Not all proteins are the same, there are animal proteins and there are plant proteins. The particular type of protein that a specific species requires is based on whether or not a reptile is carnivorous, insectivorous or herbivorous.

Carnivorous and insectivorous reptiles require proteins that are derived from animal and insects, while herbivorous reptiles require proteins derived only from plants. Providing a reptile with the wrong type of protein may have serious long-term results that may eventually lead to gout. This is commonly seen in iguanas that are fed a diet high in animal proteins while they are young to increase their growth rate. As the iguana grows and becomes older they begin to suffer from illnesses that are directly related to a diet of inappropriate proteins early on in life.

Gout is not a condition that typically presents itself overnight; there are exceptions to this rule, as we will see later on. This condition is usually develops slowly over a long period of time. There are three forms of gout that may effect reptiles, visceral, articular and pariarticular. These three forms of gout may be broken down into two basic classifications, primary and secondary. The primary classification occurs when uric acid in the blood is present as monosodium urate. When uric acid and uric salts are present in high amounts in the bloodstream the condition is referred to as hyperuricemia. To put it simply, hyperuricemia is the overproduction of uric acid and uric salts. This overproduction of uric acid and salts may be the result of a genetically inherited defect. When this occurs it is classified as primary gout.

Secondary gout is also caused by hyperuricemia, but it is usually the result of a chronic disease or the side effects of drugs used in treating other illnesses. Chronic diseases that may effect uric acid levels leading to secondary gout in reptiles are renal disease and starvation. Metabolic disorders may also play a role in the development of gout.

Since most reptiles suffer from secondary gout it is usually the result of a poor diet and a lack of a clean and fresh water supply, which helps to flush excess uric acids from the body. Temperature and humidity are also very important in the disease process of reptiles, particularly in species that receive most of their water requirements from the moisture in the air.

As stated earlier, gout may be the result of another illness or drug. For this reason it is important to understand that determining the presence of gout may be difficult. Radiographs of the joints may show lytic lesions, but the best method for determining its presence in reptiles is to obtain a sample of the fluid in the joints in order to look for the presence of monosodium urate crystals.

Anytime a reptile is suffering from an illness involving the renal system, gout should always be considered. The same is true when a reptile is being treated for an illness with a drug that is known to have the potential for effecting the renal system. Remember that it is the secondary classification that is commonly presented in reptiles, which means that the signs and symptoms of this condition will most likely not be presented by themselves. In most cases this illness will be masked by the symptoms of a disease involving the renal system. Treatment of gout in reptiles is very poorly understood, as is the condition itself. Most treatment methods currently available for reptiles have been based on those of humans that suffer from this condition. Antihyperuricemic and uricouric drugs are used to treat the gout itself, while anti-inflammatory drugs and corticosteriods are used to treat the associated arthritis attacks.

Successful diagnosis and treatment of this condition may be very difficult and recovery rates in reptiles are very low. One of the reasons for this is that by the time the condition is diagnosed it has been present for a long period of time and is usually very well progressed. For this reason it is very important to prevent the illness by providing a proper diet with the right type of proteins throughout all life stages and to ensure a fresh, clean water supply is always available.

And

I feel a seller has the responsibility to provide animals that are healthy at the time of their sale.

Simply stated, prove it. Prove he knowingly sold a sick animal and your freind got dooped into buying it.

Based on the article I posted there are two distinct possibilities on this case.

1) the seller did something wrong
or
2) the buyer did something wrong

The seller is in the postion that the animal was alive, thriving, and outwardly healthy at the time of the transaction. So was the buyer or I hope he wouldnt have bought it. The Buyer is out money 2 months later and looking for compensation.

But again, when is it no longer the sellers fault?
1 week, 1 month, 2 months, 5 years, when does the sellers responsibility end?

 

[CheriS]

Wait Neil!!! It's only half time and Tampa Bay has a history of losing it in the last quarter But I think this time they may pull it off.. keeping finger crossed!

LOL your also a bit excited and its showing on your post.

I don't think Adam started this thread for any reason other than trying to find info if anyone else had the same problems with like pythons from the Daytona show or what MAY have contributed to it. He's not named the breeder, or made it a bad guy post, he was seeking information or inquiring, which I understand is allowed on this board, not just complaints or applauds of breeders.

Did I miss where this was the only one in the clutch that died? Has the dealer stated that?

I agree, its a Caveat Emptor situation and there is no recourse, but to inform the seller this happen, what happens after that is totally within his hands and the law is on his side in it.

BUT... even without naming the breeders, this post was informative and I think appropriate for BOI. People reading it are learning of a common problem in young pythons and how to avoid it. Hopefully also being leery in the future to buy snakes under a certain age and avoid those dealers that sell them without that consideration. Breeders can see potential problems with transport and shows and take actions to avoid them.

As far as Adam's contributon to the demise of the baby python in his care, although possible, very unlikely as it takes several weeks for damage to show up in their system and die from it.

I am not sure this thread was looking to blame anyone, but to inquire and inform and I think it has done both.

 

[WebSlave]

Neil - I think you are getting a bit carried away. This is a discussion, so stop trying to turn it into an argument. Your posts are a perfect example of what I have been hearing scares off some people about posting on the BOI. And I want it to cease, NOW.

I believe Adam's posts have been logically presented and he has done an admirable job of keeping emotions out of his postings. Something I think you would do well to take notes on. IMHO.

So make your factual statements as well as opinions, but leave the emotion and flames on your side of the keyboard, please.

 

[Neil Gubitz]

OK.... Rich....

....Neil

 

[Adam Block]

Neil, because you have a lack of regard for the posting of other and showing no signs of reading them I will not respond to your statements as they have no foundation in what I've laid out or said not to mention they are way off base on my motive. If you would like to take the time to read my posts again and respond to my statements with out your assumptions I would be happy to address your questions or issues. Until that time I thank you for your responses however you are very obviously missing something major. I will lay those points out for a few of your comments so as to keep you from scratching your head.

There is no way in hell that YOU will take ANY BLAME for this, will you??....

You must have missed the following: I feel that puts 65% plus of the money loss on myself and is very fair to us both.

You KNOW he had the snake for a very short time.... yet, YOU bought it anyway??.... /

Again you must have missed the following: This snake was born the same month of the show, something not mentioned at the time and only recently brought to my attention.

why is YOURS the only one that died from that clutch??....

Yet again Neil you must have missed the following: If you’ve had a snake die in a similar manner/situation I would very much like to hear about it. As I said this post is meant to bring out the facts and go from there if there is in fact anything else that needs to be addressed.

had you asked for one this time, you MIGHT not be in this situation....

And again: I was assured that I was getting a healthy animal free of any troubles

of course, I STILL don't know ANY dealer or breeder who is going to guarantee the health of their animals for 2 MONTHS???....

Again: I offer a 6-month promise on my snakes so my customers know they will be doing well. This covers a genetic issue as well as poor feeding, biting or anything else.

Neil, your posts are always very well put together but being a big dealer and considering the volume of snakes you sell this post may hit a little too close to home for you to look at it objectively. You have made it very clear that you are not reading anything I post only responding with the same thing each time. We have heard from you and your points and feelings on this are clear. However I ask that if you’re not willing to take the time to read the posts then please stop responding to this thread. I’m trying very hard to have more respect for Rich and his goals with this site and there is no way I’m going to let this turn into a name calling session. If I can’t keep my emotion out of a post then I will not make it from now on.

Some of your quotes are also very contradicting to what you’re saying here. I will point out the following just to see where it is that you do stand on this however I have a feeling this post will in large be ignored by you. The first two go against what you’re saying about who is in question. There is doubt here for sure and I’m willing to accept 65% of that. The rest I believe falls on the breeder.

Here are those quotes:

There are times in this biz when you just have to bite the bullet and do the right thing.... even if it means you lose money.…

when in doubt, side with the customer!.... You will be a HERO in their eyes!

And you wonder why I DON'T say negative things about some of the other places that help me make a living??.... I won't cut off my nose to spite my face....

Yes, Dave did sell me 10 large WC Balls for $5 each....I sell them in my store ONLY.... I have NEVER posted Ball Pythons (with one "Melting Ball" exception) on ANY forum!! They're not worth it! I tell EVERYONE that wants one in the store that they ARE WC...The one's that have eaten...we sell first...the one's that haven't eaten, I tell them! Angie tells them!
I also have about 25 CH babies in the store....I explain to everyone what captive "hatched" means...

The last two I think show that you’re a big reptile dealer and wouldn’t side with a buyer because you ultimately see it as something that could cost you money.

With the very last quote what I want to know is? Of the 35 animals listed above, 25 of them coming into direct question regarding this exact issue. How many have died and are you also saying that because you’ve warned them they take the loss and you would be totally unwilling to refund or replace any of those dead animals? That to me looks very bad and is what you’ve implied so far.

Adam Block

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Here are a few excerps I have found on a few pages on

gout in reptiles

from google.com.

In secondary gout, the high level is due to the inability of the kidneys to adequately excrete the uric acid. This can be caused by medications, chronic diseases, kidney disease, starvation, improper diet, decreased water intake or chronic dehydration, and other environmental factors which affect the kidneys' ability to eliminate uric acid.

With reptiles, environmental factors are most often implicated in gout leading to renal failure, especially chronic dehydration, diet, and suboptimum temperatures for the species

Renal and visceral gout also has been seen in reptiles where there is no previous history of drug therapy or exposure to toxicologic agents. This condition has been seen sporadically in crocodilians and is due to an accumulation of uric acid at multiple extrarenal sites. Appleby and Seller (1960) reported on an alligator of unknown age which had extensive uric acid deposits in the epicardium. I have seen visceral gout in juvenile farm-reared American alligators. Visceral gout may be either primary, resulting from excess protein catabolism or secondary, caused by renal failure, or dehydration (Frye 1981). Visceral gout is occasionally seen in young alligators which are fed maximally (Coulson et al 1973). If alligators ingest protein and digest it faster than amino acids can be removed by protein synthesis, nitrogen from unused amino acids is converted into either ammonia or uric acid. In maximally fed alligators which developed visceral gout, paralysis was seen to occur first in the front legs and later in the back legs, and they would eventually die if they continued to feed. If alligators were fasted for one week after appearance of the first signs of paralysis, all recovered quickly.

As I said before there is absolutely no proof that there is any genetic flaw, or that the Breeder did something wrong. It really sucks that the animal perished but there is nothing you can do about it with the breeder. Sorry Adam.

 

[Stardust]

Adam,

I hope you continue on your quest for information. I have been keeping up with this post and find it very informative.
As someone who is possibly in the near future going to get a snake, I would not hesitate talking with and buying one from you.
Just by your posts you seem knowledgable and willing to learn and above all a business man who cares not only for the snakes he sells but the customer as well.


Rozann Lamont

 

[Adam Block]

Rozann, thank you very much! Just don't have me ship you any dry goods (I've now stopped selling them). I'm such a slow shipper when the P.O. is involved that it's become almost a joke.

Adam Block

 

[Janie Manaski]

I usually would never want to get into a discussion on the BOI since I am a total reptile novice with only a year of keeping under my belt. But the point that comes to my mind is that if the snake was healthy enough in appearance for your friend to purchase, and then did seemingly well for two months, then how could the breeder possibly know that he was not selling a healthy snake? (IF indeed the snake developed gout in the breeder's care.) Of course he couldn't unless there had been a history of it in his colony.

You said, "I feel a seller has the responsibility to provide animals that are healthy at the time of their sale. That was not the case with this animal."

How do you know? The animal MUST have been outwardly healthy if your friend laid down $2500 for it. Did the friend who purchased the snake give it water on the way BACK from the show? How do you know it didn't contract gout at that point? This thread is a great heads-up, but I feel that you can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was genetic or the breeder's fault. That fact another of the same breeder's snakes died this way may be a simple coincidence. Just beacuse two brothers grow up to be alcoholics, it doesn't necessarily mean they carry the gene that predisposes them to become a drunk.

Very sorry about your loss

Janie

 

[Rob @ RK Reptiles]

Adam,

Ok I have a few questions for you. First you say your reason for posting was to decide which way to go with this situation. Well the way to go seems clear to me. It is not the Breeders responsibilty and the consensus is just that.
Second, you have been stating that you offer a 6 month guarantee on your animals right?

Again: I offer a 6-month promise on my snakes so my customers know they will be doing well. This covers a genetic issue as well as poor feeding, biting or anything else.

well this next quote if direct from your Web page.

I'm so confidant that you will be happy with your purchase from IMPACT Reptiles that I'll give you a full refund (refund applys to cost of snakes only) within the first three months if you are not (Snakes must be shipped back to me alive and in good health).

That is not exactly 6 months to me. Hell 3 months is a great guarantee but why stretch the truth and try to convince everyone that you offer 6 months?

Another thing. What is this charging extra to guarantee live arrival? (Direct from your web page)

You are responsible for all shipping costs at a charge of $39.00 (liability assumed by you). Because of this I'm willing to guarantee live arrival for a surcharge of 20%.

I am confused how you can sit here and try to make it sound like this breeder/seller in responsible for this animal when it was in all appearances HEALTHY and was Healthy enough for your partner to purchase it and you do not even offer the Guarantee of live arrival on your own animals? I am sorry that this is a little off the subject but it all falls into the same grey area. It really seems to me that you are not really wanting the information and thoughts of others on here to decide which way to go, but rather hoping someone will agree with your side so you can try to get a replacement animal. I am sorry but this does not jive with me.

 

[Adam Block]

Rob, what you failed to mention in the quotes you supplied is that you were talking about secondary gout. Defiend as:

Secondary gout is also caused by hyperuricemia, but it is usually the result of a chronic disease or the side effects of drugs used in treating other illnesses. Chronic diseases that may effect uric acid levels leading to secondary gout in reptiles are renal disease and starvation. Metabolic disorders may also play a role in the development of gout.

This does not apply here as the snake was free of any disease and was feeding. The situation your speaking of is something that takes time and wouldn't be seen in a 2 month old snake.

What does apply from that same link is this:

Gout is not a condition that typically presents itself overnight; there are exceptions to this rule, as we will see later on. This condition is usually develops slowly over a long period of time. There are three forms of gout that may effect reptiles, visceral, articular and pariarticular. These three forms of gout may be broken down into two basic classifications, primary and secondary. The primary classification occurs when uric acid in the blood is present as monosodium urate. When uric acid and uric salts are present in high amounts in the bloodstream the condition is referred to as hyperuricemia. To put it simply, hyperuricemia is the overproduction of uric acid and uric salts. This overproduction of uric acid and salts may be the result of a genetically inherited defect. When this occurs it is classified as primary gout.

I'm not saying that is the case. However, because it is far more likely I feel my request of a snake valued at 35% of the one that died leaving 65% of that doubt on myself is more then fair.

I think this quote from that link also applies:

Successful diagnosis and treatment of this condition may be very difficult and recovery rates in reptiles are very low. One of the reasons for this is that by the time the condition is diagnosed it has been present for a long period of time and is usually very well progressed. For this reason it is very important to prevent the illness by providing a proper diet with the right type of proteins throughout all life stages and to ensure a fresh, clean water supply is always available.

Adam Block

 

[Uffern]

I believe the point that everyone seems to be missing is that it is not a good practice (for the snakes) to sell right out of the egg. If you ask me, the gout isn't so much the issue here, as much as the selling of the snake mere days after it hatched. How many of you are willing to ship a snake that is ten days old? This may not be the best comparison, but I think it is fairly accurate to describe the stress of being taken to a show. No, he cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is the breeder's fault, but does that mean that it can't be the breeder's fault? How many of you feel alright about selling a two week old snake? I'm not a snake person, but I don't sell my dragons until they are six weeks old or six inches long, whichever comes last. IMO, there is enough of an indication that the breeder is at fault that if it were me, I would replace the snake.

 

[Adam Block]

Good point Rob. I don't put a time frame on that in all honesty. I take it on a case by case and for a very long time it was six. That was my slip as I must have changed that last time I updated that section. Either way that isn't set in stone and I would bake my snakes and stand behind them for live depending on the situation.

As for the guarantee of live arrival. That is something I do offer however it is not something that FedEx offers and the quote you posted is addressing shipping, the snake I'm talking about was bought at the show and wasn't shipped. My charge on that is insurance and that idea came from the man himself, Rich Z.

Agree with me or not has nothing to do with it. I would have rather not had any of these responces as this post was about finding information and has gotten off topic. This breeder is far too hard headed to replace the snake and from what I hear would cut his arm off long before he would say he may have done somehting wrong. Be that the case or not I'm looking for infomation and not a debate as the dollar amount of the snake is fairly small and was one of the least costly snakes bought over the past few months. It's the point and the breeder actions not the cost in this case.

Adam Block

 

[Seamus Haley]

Primary and Secondary in this case are not designations made because of the likelihood of their occurring but rather the source of the difficulty...

In a very small amount of research on the subject, combined with a few of the posts other have made here, it seems as if Secondary gout is a far more common condition than anything with a genetic basis... I have also found wildly varying lengths of time listed for the duration it takes for secondary gout to become lethal if untreated, Adam had the snake for a significant enough period of time that the condition could have easily evolved while it was in his care...

This is one of those situations where it's an impossibility to determine the exact cause of the condition and as such, blame can not be placed on any of the parties involved. Since it's apparently well outside of the guarantee period, this leaves the buyer S.O.L. in this instance, especially when statistically, it seems more likely that the condition developed after the animal had been purchased.

The request for 35% of the snake's value in trade or as a refund is absurd Adam, there's no proof that they created any condition which led to the animal's demise- but it had been in your care for a fairly respectable period of time when it occurred, guess who a court would side with.

And Neil... you were way off, 48-21 was a much nastier beating than you predicted.