Posted: July 28 2002,21:29
OK since you asked.
Ok, fair enough.
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...nothing more than ample ignorance.keeping leos isn't by any means rocket science,...
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OK, first, this isn't taken in context, but it captures both halves of the issue:
Ignorance: lack of knowledge/understanding. Nothing wrong with that, people don't like the word ignorance, but simple ignorance isn't a crime, and it doesn't mean a lack of intelligence, only knowledge.
Not rocket science: Simple truth. Leos are easy to keep, and a good choice for a starter breeding project. Which means if you don't go out and get the readily available knowlege, your ignorance is willful ignorance, which isn't condonable.
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...to learn basic husbandry before you even think about breeding or selling.
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Ok, you don't agree with this? I'm at a loss, here. Of COURSE you need to learn the basics before you try to breed an animal, or try to sell one you may have acquired, at least to the point that you can tell what kind of shape it's in. The most visible problem with the leos pictured on the site is retained shed, which is a basic husbandry issue.
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Remaining ignorant in the care of your animals with such readily available information is criminally neglegent.
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That's an opinion, see my comment on willful ignorance above. I don't see any problem with putting it this way. Do I mean it literally, no, just a way of strongly stating that there's no excuse not to go out and get the information available. Plenty of people have tried to help him find that information, and from his public statements, it appears that those suggestions have been ignored.
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Get rid of every gecko you currently own. Period. They are suffering both for lack of knowledge on your part and you are in no way equipped to rehab one gecko let alone several.
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I stand behind that statement. If the numerous pics on his website aren't enough to convince someone of that, then the fact that he's got leos in poor condition up for sale should say something.
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This takes care of the first problem, which is your neglegent abuse of your animals.
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That's a bit strong. I'll agree with you there. However, all indicators that I've seen are that the kid is being neglegent in the care of his animals, so the comment stands.
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...and you are not knowledgeable enough to be trusted with sanitizing used equipment and enclosures...
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Do I need to give him a quiz on this to confirm it? I don't think so. It's an assessment of his abilities, and I'll stand by it. I think it was you who asked what if the kid got these animals in poor shape and recieved bad advice, right? Well, that's really your worse case scenario in terms of sanitizing the enclosures. If someone foisted off these animals on him, they could well have any number of things that he shouldn't have to deal with getting rid of. Coccidia is a royal pain to get out of an enclosure, particularly if it's an aquarium, b/c the stuff can get into the silicone enough to be almost impossible to remove. Adenovirus is just plain bad sh-- and tossing the equipment is probably the wisest thing for anyone to do. I seriously he's asware of these issues considering what we've seen from him so far.
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After all of this research, go do some field research.
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I don't see your problem with this. I suggested he read up, then ask a lot of questions, then go see some properly kept animals first hand. All of which are things I do before buying a new species.
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THEN,buy ONE and only ONE example of this species.
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Are you objecting to the use of caps for empahsis or suggesting that someone new to a species should go out and get a bunch of animals to learn on? If it's the caps, I don't know what the problem is. If you think it's a good idea to get multiple animals you don't know how to care for, then I just disagree. Now, I also suggested he raise that one to maturity then buy a second and raise it to maturity. Chances are, if he did this, he'd not follow that bit of advice, but the idea is to get more animals only after you know how to care for the first one.
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You've aptly demonstrated the results of a rush job to us with your pics. Don't continue on your current path.
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I agree with myself here. How many times have you seen posts from people (of any age) wanting to get adult animals to start breeding for money who also post questions that show they've done absolutely no research on the species? Or posts from people with injured or damaged animals who rushed in instead of starting out slowly, and learning with a single animal, then a small, manageable group?
And...
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As to your post with the two leos, you've not chosen the worse animals on his site, so it's an intellectually dishonest question, but I'll answer it anyway.
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Let me answer that again for you since your a little slow to catch on here.
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Everyone knows I'm an Arboreal snake guy, so when it comes to gexs I have no clue.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Actually, if you have no clue, why are you arguing about the condition of the geckos?
So bad remarks like this you included them in that blanket statement.
I think what you mean is that if not all the animals are in bad shape, I shouldn't have told him to get rid of all of his animals? I disagree. If your theory is correct that someone could have shafted him, he has no idea what unseen problems the animals may have. It's not possible to examine an animal thoroughly online, but based on what
is visible, and based on how he has said he is keeping them, the condition of ALL of his animals is suspect. It's best that he start over with healthy animals from a good source, at least in my opinion.
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Get rid of every gecko you currently own. Period. They are suffering both for lack of knowledge on your part and you are in no way equipped to rehab one gecko let alone several.
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So in all do respect you claimed they where suffering so I asked how.
Have you seen the missing toes and the retained shed on his animals? I don't know about arboreal snakes (other than they look very nice) but I'm pretty sure you don't let snakes suffer from retained shed to the point that they lose appendages, do you?
Well put......
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I think we are getting a little off topic here. What I believe Tim's real concern and mine is the welfare of the animals, which is the most important factor at this point. I don't think it's feasible to say Randy is going to give up all his geckos and throw away all his cages and things related, so maybe its best we try to eduacate this kid as a whole in the community even as reluctant as he might have been...But let's take it to a higher level now and educate this kid as he obviously has interest in reptiles one way or another ,and will most likely keep them one way or another, so let's attempt to help him. I know a lot of people here have offered help and he has refused or not really known how to take it, but noone is a lost cause.
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I agree that that was well put, and assume that the rest of the post doesn't pertain to me. As for it going off on a tangent, I didn't address you directly until you decided to label me as a "prick" and I'm guessing that's where things got off track.
I'm willing to bet you don't go around calling people you barely know "pricks", normally. Either I've been way out of line, or you're just being a bit cranky, but I'm willing to let the whole tangent drop if you are. More than happy to disagree with you or answer your concerns without resorting to that kind of stuff.
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