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Allen Belcher / Big Daddy's Wholesale ... WARNING

Jim,

Allen a friend of yours too? Sure wish you apply the same "unbiased" stance to Allen's post as you have Bryon's. Go ahead, pick it apart, make all kinds of innuendos and hypotheticals. Since after all you are unbiased and just seeking the truth right?


Bryon,

Outside of the pictures you have nothing to worry about as long as what you have said here is true. And I do believe what you have said here is true.
 
Herpluver, I am a little confused by what you mean ...

And I don't think I'm getting your assumption, much less hypothetical conclusion. Whatever the case, this is what Allen says in his statement about the pictures:
......the pics were taken on my property while working for me and without permission .....
Click to expand...

I don't see a need to speculate that he means anything else. Bryon says one thing, and Allen says something else. They say that the truth often lies somewhere in the middle !!
 
Sammy,
Respectfully. Besides what I have posted directly here, I have also mentioned that I have traded PM's with Bryon, and that I spoke to Allen for the first time in my life today. He did post his phone number, did he not? Very early in the thread I stated that I knew neither, and had never done business with either one. Do you need to create false relationships to bolster your opinion or undermine the credibility of those you disagree with? I have often admired yor posts, and we have both given the other rep points many times. I believe that the answer to my question would be "No" most of the time, so why now do you resort to such? You are enough of a word-smith to not need to go there.
 
Before my previous reply gets skipped over by "the man", could you please be sure to take a quick peek so I can get some answers??? I think I posted on page 20 but there's been quite a few replies regarding other posts since then so I just don't want Big Daddy to miss it.
 
No need to be confused Jim,

But I'm pretty sure, Allen means he didn't specifically say to Bryon "You may post those photo's on fauna or any other site you wish"

If you don't give specific written restrictions or verbal even, after giving someone permission to TAKE the pictures, then that person may use those photo's as he/she See's fit i do believe.

I wont even guess, but i will say i KNOW that man gave Bryon permission to take pictures. I'm a fairly decent judge of character, and Bryon just isn't the type to falsify any statements to further his own means. The interaction was probably Bryon; "Hey Allen, mind if i shoot some pics of these morphs man to show off to some friends on the net" Allen; "Sure man, shoot away".

Could've happened many different ways. But if he never said "Keep them to yourself" or anything similar, then there now Bryon's pictures i do believe? Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
One thing makes me wonder, If he has 287 racks of animals, how did he think one person could clean all those cages in a 40 hour week? How many tubs per rack? How many animals per tub? Then also to be able to seperate and feed each individual animal? Now I only have 3 racks with snakes and 3 with rats. It takes me at least an 60- 90 minutes per rack to spray and wipe out the tubs, wash and fill water bowls and feed the animals. Then add in the extra time when cleaning in a quarintine area (if he really has one) and that time doubles! Do the math. :rofl:
 
I have to defend Jim on this one as his words here are only to seek the entire truth. As we have all learned many times here, there are always 2 sides to every story. I don't see Jim as taking sides here but only goading both sides to find out the entire truth. What I, or anyone else here, chooses to believe is up to them. For me, pictures speak loudly. I have had a couple hundred snakes at once and NEVER did my snakes enclosures look like that. I did take a lot of heat from the then wife for spending so much time with the reptiles instead of her and the kids but as I stated before, these animals do not choose to live in a plastic box with there own feces. I check my cages everyday, sometimes a couple times a day so I can spot clean. I would have to say I would not choose to do business with a person who lets his animals live in these conditions because of the chance of bacteria and germs on those conditions. What anyone else chooses to do is there own business. I do agree that Allen does need to take better care of these animals as snakes don't normally poop 2 or 3 times a day and the one pic had numerous piles of poop in it. OK there was 5 or six snakes in that enclosure (another no-no IMHO) but still, don't let it sit there.
I think both parties have valid complaints Bryon's being the animals living conditions and Allen's being as to why Bryon brought this public. The fact remains that the animals pay the price and this should be the focus of attention.
 
Jim,

If you want to address my post on a personal level I am more than will to talk to you in PM where it belongs.

Now on to my post as it pertains to this thread. I did not create a "false relationship". I asked a question. Once. To create false relationships to bolster my opinion or undermine the credibility of those I disagree with I would need to make statements insinuating that there was a relationship between the two of you. Which I did no such thing. I simply asked a question.
 
his words here are only to seek the entire truth. As we have all learned many times here, there are always 2 sides to every story. I don't see Jim as taking sides here but only goading both sides to find out the entire truth.
Click to expand...
I agree.
 
I have to say that I agree with Sammy here. All throughout this entire thread you (Jim) have questioned Bryon's motives and credibility, yet it seems as though because Allen said it, it proves Bryon does have questionable motives. How is this unbiased. You are not showing the same responses to that less than dignified response Allen posted. Not one time did Bryon bring in personal issues with Allen, yet Allen does. That was completely unnecessary to bring up Bryon's personal business. No one needs to know he was behind on child support or anything to do with his kids! JMHO
 
Well ........

Here's what you said Sammy:
Allen a friend of yours too? Sure wish you apply the same "unbiased" stance to Allen's post as you have Bryon's.
Click to expand...

I guess that I made a bad assumption that you would have read the several prior posts where I had exactly stated my relationship and non-thread communications with both entities in their complete entirety. You also accuse me of not applying the same "unbiased" stance in the very next sentance! Silly me Sammy !

I thank Ron for what I believe is a more fair and accurate summation of the tenor of all my posts in his thread. This is a fascinating thread in many ways. Some people do a very good job of disagreeing. Others only seem to be able to rewrite or mischaracterize the words of htose they disagree with so as to then be able to say "You're wrong". C'est la vie !!

I obviously have problems with some of Bryon's actions. I also cannot condone the conditions at Allen's business. As mentioned by others, I also know large breeders where I could eat off their floors. They are very successful. Its no accident.
 
I don't see Jim as taking sides here but only goading both sides to find out the entire truth.
Click to expand...

The only problem I have with this statement is that I do not see Jim goading BOTH sides. I only see him goading one side, and has from the beginning.

With that being said, I do believe Jim to be an honorable person. I just wish he would apply the SAME pressure on both parties involved. Which to this point I have not seen.
 
I commend Bryon for bringing this situation to our attention. I do believe that the conditions the snakes are in are way below acceptable standards. I also believe that we are all on the same page here, more or less.

I understand Jims position as to his postings because the bottom line is we simply don't know, for a fact, the motivations behind any individual for what they do or don't do. I don't think Jim is taking sides rather than probing for the truth. A truth that we will probably never fully know.

Let's assume that everything Bryon said is truthful, and I have no reason to believe it is not. Was there anything important that was not mentioned by Bryon? Maybe, maybe not. I think the issue here is not side taking, but focusing on the condition the animals are kept in and what we can do to improve their environment. Art
 
Thank you Sammy ..

Sammy says:
With that being said, I do believe Jim to be an honorable person. I just wish he would apply the SAME pressure on both parties involved. Which to this point I have not seen.
Click to expand...

And Hiss and Hers, I acknowledge your points too. I thank Casey as well.

Here we go. Yes I have questoned Bryon's motivations, and the nature of his relationship with Allen. From the get-go. I have not raised the same questions with Allen's position (more follows on Allen). The big difference for me was that Bryon came here with the allegations about Allen, not vice-versa. Bryon, the accuser, gets the hard questions!

Without going back to all of my posts, trust that I did say things like "if its half as bad as Bryon says, its bad", and "I cannot condone the conditions at Allen's place", etc, all scattered early in this thread.

Everyone has their "hot-points" in this thread. For many its the apparent horrible condition at Allen's. Maybe for most ! This is a most damaging thread for Allen. It is possible that the damage is greater than you may know, for reasons I am unfortunately not at liberty to divulge. My huge hot-point here involves a concern that I have traded PM's with Bryon on this morning. Most of you who have followed my posts here can guess it. Bryon says he will answer me later, and I have invited him to post the PM's here. Call me blind and self-serving (figuratively ... no more fines needed here), but I believe that I have been quite unbiased :shrug01: You are right, H & H, we now have some statements from Allen to chew on, to include details about Bryon that may not be appropriate for us to know, and which Allen may have only included to discredit Bryon. There may be other reasons. I have an ex-wife too. Done the child-support thing, and that part of Allen's statement meant nothing to me ...... so Bryon's like me in some ways ! Can you understand that not making it onto my radar ?
One thing that I did get from Allen today, and which I am inclined to believe. He feels very blind-sided by Bryon. That's putting his expression of it to me a bit mildly. He answered all of my questons (Bryon has not .... so far). Just like an earlier recent post said something about being able to "divine the facts" .... well, I'm not going so far as that !!! But I do believe there is much more to this story, the "two sides" that some have mentioned.
And Jeeez you pissed me off Sammy !! Why .... cause I respect you so damn much !! C'mon, I said in the very beginning I was going to play Devil's Advocate !! I grew up Catholic, and the role always intrigued me (there is a true devil's advocate in the Vatican ... he has a more official title, but that's where it comes from!) Bryon has to take the tough questions ! He didn't just come here with a few paragraphs about "Allen ... Bad Guy". For good reason or bad, he betrayed a trust. This is big-time BOI ! Look at the number of readers ! Biased ... maybe, but in an unbiased way .... peace?
 
Jim,

It was not my intentions to get you mad. Or to imply you have ulterior motives. I just really did not understand why you were not putting Allen's post under the same scrutiny as you have Bryon's. Nothing more nothing less.

And the statement about you being Allen's friend too, was very tongue in cheek and sarcastic. Meant to illustrate my point that I felt you were being very one sided in you scrutiny.

Peace? Always. I was never upset with you Jim.
 
I understand the scrutiny that Bryon must face posting this, and I am sure that Allen was caught very unaware of what was to be. In that respect, there could have been a more tactful way for him to deal with this situation, as you said in previous posts...coming right out with his concerns and intentions and dealing with it from there. Then, if things were still not resolved, resorting to the board. Which, in his shoes, is probably what I would have done. But, that is neither here nor there. What I cannot shake is the thought that if you (again, I am speaking to Jim) had not posted what Allen's legal recourses could be, that perhaps he may not have taken them? Just something to ponder there. The advice given to Bryon was thoughtful and very respectable, but perhaps should have been taken care of through PM? I am not trying to start anymore of a war than there already is, just a few things about this that I felt compelled to resond to.
 
Oh MY

I have to make my opinion know here. I tried to stay out of this, but the conditions of the animals and the treatment of someone I know to be an honest as the day is long person, makes that impossible.
Bryon, went into this "job" as excited as a teenage boy on his first date(with the car). He felt he would really have a hands on situation with the animals.
He felt he could really make a difference in the herp world, if just a small corner of it.
Then about 4 1/2 to 5 weeks into it I spoke to him and he was, beaten down, depressed, and felt he was not being "allowed to do his job".
He was seeing things that IMHO caused him great distress.
He felt that there was no way to care for these animals the way they deserved, due to the demands made on his time that had nothing to do with the care of the animals. The job he was hired to do.
I have spoken to Bryon enough to be able to tell that he was not angry, with anyone, but was distressed over the situation the animals were in and dishonesty he felt was taking place. He was overwhelmed by the conditions he walked into, and what can only be seen as the Owners unwillingness to correct the issues.
It seemed something else was always more "important" than the animals care.
Be it deliveries, pick ups, setting up birthday party jumpers, running sewer pipe.
If you have several successful businesses, why would you hire only one person
to assist in all of them. It would seem to me that hiring staff that are qualified
in that particular business would make more sense. Use the peoples qualifications to "Better" your business. Rather than the "lets save a few bucks" and stretch one employee into three attitude.
The fact that this gentleman has animals that some would dearly love to own
and cares nothing for them, and sees them as dollar sign, rather than beautiful living creatures, that deserve to live in a clean, healthy, and safe
atmosphere, is just too sad for words.
I have no doubts, that what Bryon has said and shown is the truth, as I have talked to him off and on throughout this ordeal, from the time he took the job till now. He has used me as a sounding board, when he was upset with things.
I asked him if he had tried to speak with his boss about his concerns, and he had. Only to be told that "he" would have to make time later........other more important things to be done.
What was he to do spend nights there without pay to correct a situation that had apparently gone on for a long while prior to his arrival.
I ask, would anyone of us be willing to work without pay.
I applaud Bryon, he had the courage to open the door, and warn all of us.


Ginger Ambrose
 
Hey Dude ..

Sammy,
I was a teenager in the '60's. I really did say "Peace" with the V-finger thing, etc. Anyway, you may not understand why I took what may be referred to as "Allen's side" or being one-sided, etc. May I point out that the overwhelming majority of people here have been one-sided against Allen? I really do not think that my position has been "pro-Allen" either. I think it was more just asking Bryon the tough questions that his accusations warranted. Somebody had to, IMO.
I have been able to trade some good PM's with those of you "on the other side of the fence". Here's the question that sumarizes how I am looking at all of this, and which I put in a PM to one of y'all:

Is there a line in your mind, that you would draw, where actions taken by Bryon would be deemed appropriate in order to impact his stated concerns to "help the animals and warn potential customers" about Allen, but yet beyond which could be characterized as "over-doing" it, and possibly malicious ?
Click to expand...

Each of us will draw that line in a different place for different reasons. But if I draw the line in a certain area, and then see things that go too far beyond it for my own liking, my questions are obviously going to be in that direction. I don't claim to know everything that has gone down so far. I never will. In Bryon's own words, some of his actions crossed that line for me, and I'm waiting on his reply about one big issue. I am also privy to allegations that, if even half-true, trouble me even more.
No one has commented on Bryon acknowledging that he emailed a couple of Allen's regular customers, directing them to this thread. Its admittedly a brief reference. Use a little imagination. Any warning lights going off in any of you? How many Bryon? Unfortunately, it may only be for the real attorneys, not the out-house ones like me.
 
Lori Lori Lori ...

I only said it three times because its a pretty name ... and I was exhaling !! I am pasting this part of your most recent post, addressed to me:

What I cannot shake is the thought that if you (again, I am speaking to Jim) had not posted what Allen's legal recourses could be, that perhaps he may not have taken them? Just something to ponder there. The advice given to Bryon was thoughtful and very respectable, but perhaps should have been taken care of through PM?
Click to expand...

Allen's a business man, and while I see it as a compliment in ways, I don't think that he needed my hints, if that's what they were. But I thank you.
I also thank you for reading some of my earlier posts. PM's do accomplish the communications from Point A to Point B. But with the BOI, many of us write to the larger audience as well. Its meant to prod more opinions, be a learning tool to others should we feel so arrogantly brilliant :slamit: , etc. It also is a way to deliberately open ourselves up to respectful disagreement, and with the good comes the bad. But being as Bryon chose this stage in all its public heraldry, what can I say ..... :shrug01:
 
I would like to know what is being done about the animals? If Allen can not handle the care and up keep of having so many, and having an employee that by nature wasn't allowed to do it, as Bryon stated, then I would suggest an emergency meeting of the Herp Community in that State. Offer him assistance. Offer him to take the animals that he can't care for. (Though unlikely that will happen).
If he or anyone in fact, Lived in Indiana and I KNEW they had animals that needed assistance, I would be knocking on their door. Not to threated, not to yell in protest. But to come and help, to allow either myself along with others, to care for those animals. It is not their fault!!! Just like anyone with a mistreated Dog(s). It is not their fault they are chained to a tree, left unfed, starving. They are removed and CARED FOR. So my only question is: What is being done about the animals?????
 
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