Allen Belcher / Big Daddy's Wholesale ... WARNING

[Zoo Supply]

Yup, agreed Jim,
TOM

 

[Bill & Amy]

I just wanted to say something else, most places of employment that do not allow picture taking have it posted or in a employment agreement. If Allen has neither of these at his place of business, I don't think he can sue him for taking pictures. I used to work in a warehouse that had us sign documents stating no pictures were allowed to be taken.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Bill and Amy

Let me address your concerns stated here:

But they way you quote everything so far, you are But they way you quote everything so far, you are assuming he has an hidden agenda. You have stated it could be staged etc. It sounds like you are trying to provide Allen with an excuse. Maybe I just don't understand what your getting at. You have stated it could be staged etc. It sounds like you are trying to provide Allen with an excuse. Maybe I just don't understand what your getting at.

I think that another post by another entity in this thread did make an assumption that Bryon had a hidden agenda. If you go back and look at all of my posts, I would ask you to copy and paste the statement by me that supports this part of your statement:"But they way you quote everything so far, you are assuming he has an hidden agenda." I believe that I have genuinely suggested that one could exist. I also have not posted one single reason why I suspect one, as I do not, but mainly do not know.

The potential legal issues are quite complex, and will vary from state to state. Assuming Allen does not have his employees sign a "do not take pictures" agreement, it is likely of very little relevance, as the state will have statutes regarding proprietary rights, etc, that would trump the lack of an agreement, and likely establish precedent. The need and/or value of such agreements will vary from state to state, from business type to business type, with the nature of what is being photographed, and how it is used.

Here are some assumptions that I do make:

1) Allen is aware of this thread, and has gone ballistic. Whether controlled or not, I do not know. Bryon is likely now in possession of more communications from Allen, and neither one is enjoying a comfortable Super Sunday.

2) Whether because of emails or other communications he has received since this thread began, whether from Allen or others, Bryon has increased concerns now that he did not have when he began the thread.

3) The email from Allen, as posted by Bryon, if it is legitimate, has created an even bigger mess for Allen. As pointed out by another, it creates grounds for refunds on the sale of any "poss-hets". My experience is that if you send an email to someone, they own it, and can put it on a billboard if they want to.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Don't know that he is in a position to post, of if he even has a desire to, but Allen was getting an eyeful of this thread just a short while back.

 

[hill4803]

Jim, please do not try to read anything into my posts that is not there. To enlighten those reading this thread...I chatted with Bryon several weeks ago, he had just started the job and was excited to be working with an organization that would be doing shows and really into the business side of the hobby. That is what was MEANT by "excited about the job" in my previous post.
I seriously doubt that Bryon has any motive other than exposing a probable scammer and festering scab in the herp business. I think anyine would be hard pressed to come up with any evidence that Bryon is anything other than a good guy trying to keep people from getting screwed.
I think the link to the other thread gives us a real good idea of what we are dealing with here. Why would someone change their business name if there wasn't something up? The old name was "fins and feathers" or something to that effect, now it is "Bid Daddy's wholesale"...why the name change? Somebody got something in the past to hide? Maybe some bad deals or a bad reputation? I guess we need to wait for Allen to come on here & defend his husbandry and business practices.

 

[Bill & Amy]

Quote:
I WOULD EXPECT an employee to do the same as Bryon did here if my place looked at all like this...

Maybe so, but Bryon was there for six weeks, so should his indignation at the situation have moved him to action sooner if things are as we have been told? We also have this from an acquaintance of Bryon's in post #25:

Quote:
Wow, I know you were pretty hyped about this job a couple of weeks ago.

Its not so much that I question Bryon's motives, as I truly do not know. But I don't want to make conclusive assumptions as to it all either.

I am going from this qoute of a previous statement. You said you thought he should have acted sooner if conditions were like that. This statement "the situation have moved him to action sooner if things are as we have been told?" says you dont think things were that bad or he would have acted sooner.

3) The email from Allen, as posted by Bryon, if it is legitimate, has created an even bigger mess for Allen. As pointed out by another, it creates grounds for refunds on the sale of any "poss-hets". My experience is that if you send an email to someone, they own it, and can put it on a billboard if they want to.

Sound like an assumption that it might not be real.

An argument could be made that you were taking the pictures so as to harm Allen's reputation, and therefor had motivation to stage some of them,

Did you not state this? what is his motivation? Sounds like more assumptions.

What would be Bryon's motivations?

What does he gain by faking this?

Maybe its just what was stated about a warning for others that may do business with him.

The potential legal issues are quite complex, and will vary from state to state. Assuming Allen does not have his employees sign a "do not take pictures" agreement, it is likely of very little relevance, as the state will have statutes regarding proprietary rights, etc, that would trump the lack of an agreement, and likely establish precedent. The need and/or value of such agreements will vary from state to state, from business type to business type, with the nature of what is being photographed, and how it is used.

Exactly, so it is neither here nor there. At this point, if the pics were legal or not is irrelevant.

 

[TomO]

Beware lest you play the devil's advocate so well that you become the devil's agent.

 

[BryonsBoas]

There is no personal agenda here. Why wasn't this brought to here earlier? I was told by Allen , the owner of the company that things would get better. Obviously they haven't. As for my part in this , I'm only one guy , I didn't make my schedule , my boss did. I mentioned to Allen a number of times that tubs needed to be cleaned but no time was scheduled for me to do that. I have done everything there mostly by myself , there aren't enough hours in the day to do what needed to be done by myself. I was the only employee for Big Daddy's Wholesale , the only employee to care for roughly 200 animals at any given time spread over 4 buildings , one of which was a 15 - 20 minute away . Not to mention , build rodent racks , do deliveries / pick ups , shows , set up party jumpers and anything else that was added. Allen added extra duties to my job after I started , putting up inflatable party jumpers and laying sewer pipe was not part of my job but since I was on the payroll those duties were added . Wasting time fooling with jumpers and laying sewer pipe did take away from what needed to be done. I could only do so much with the schedule I was given.As for the time it took to take pics I did that on my way to make a delivery. Took a whole 10 minutes . The fact that the buildings except for one is in Allen's backyard makes you wonder why some things weren't a priority since he had very easy acess to most of the animals.

As far as why I did this . Its very simple , I work hard for my money and when I spend it on an animal I want to get a good animal just like everyone else. Should I have hid this? Probably if I wanted no trouble but doing the right thing isn't always easy now is it? Anything personal between me and Allen is being kept personal via e-mail . The only e-mails posted in this concerned what I explained in this thread. I've already been told by one person already they feel its a " disgruntled employee " thing. Its not , if you choose to believe so then so be it. This thread wouldn't be here if Allen had scheduled my time better and took a personal interest in how things were run. I can only bring what needs to be done to his attention so many times before its obvious that the boss isn't listening or its not a priority.

Whatever happens to me over this happens. The only thing I can hope for is that if Allen stays in the biz he takes this as a learning experience and refines his scheduling and priorities. This is a clear case of what happens when its all about the money. The animals suffer. If I wasn't doing my job then why has he asked back? Why wasn't I fired? I know with the animals he has if the were mine and an employee was screwing off their care then that employee would be looking for a new job quick.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Hey Tom:

Tom O say:
Beware lest you play the devil's advocate so well that you become the devil's agent.

How true, LOL !

As for Bill and Amy.............. sheeeesh! I ask this question, without rendering any opinion what-so-ever as to the answer, but to demonstrate that IMO how one answers this question bears consideration on the assumptions made and previously stated by others:

....but Bryon was there for six weeks, so should his indignation at the situation have moved him to action sooner if things are as we have been told?

and you re-state it as this:

You said you thought he should have acted sooner if conditions were like that

After mis-stating what I said, you then tell me what I really was thinking!

.....says you dont think things were that bad or he would have acted sooner.

Well heck guys, why don't you just write my posts for me !!

Then when I say this:

The email from Allen, as posted by Bryon, if it is legitimate, has created an even bigger mess for Allen ......

It means that I am qualifying my answer in the context of not knowing if it is complete, in context, etc., but that I am assuming its authenticity relative to the point I am making.

But you say this:

Sound like an assumption that it might not be real

If it sounds that way to you , then fine !! But if you have to use "assumption" and 'might" in the same sentance, allow that I am considering that there may be more context to this whole situation, which while not materially changing that I have clearly stated that Allen's shop has problems, certainly could provide much context. What a few of us have ventured to point out is that there could be many other as-yet-unknown circumstances at play here.

This is what you stated in an earlier post Bill:

.............you are assuming he has an hidden agenda

and have only supported your statement by rewriting what I have said. If you don't agree with me, that is fine. But please do not attribute things to me that I have not said. That is what you did, and that is what I took issue with. If you think that I may have implied something, then ask me what I mean by it ..... please !
After the above quote, you then said this:

Maybe I just don't understand what your getting at.

This is an accurate statement. Next issue follows !

 

[snakebstr]

Bill and Amy
Yes, I am from Alabama but that doesn't mean anything, I have dealt with and seen Allen at several of the Reptile Shows and his animals all appear very healthy. If his animals were not taken care of they wouldn't be in good condition at the reptile shows. I am not defending Allen because we are friends, Its not like that at all. I have never been to Allens house or shop but have only seen the quality of his animals at the shows and I have seen nothing wrong, It just seems to me that Bryons picture taking was pre-planned and if he was supposed to be cleaning reptile cages then why wasn't the cleaning being done by Bryon after all he did work for Allen, TRUE or FALSE? Plus if you look at most of the photo's taken by Bryon they are blurry and most of the bedding looks WET(as if someone spilt water), instead of running and getting my camera I would have CLEANED the damn cage..DUH..but NO I want to get back at my boss for something he said or did...That is what this is all about. I know that and he does to. Oh and lets talk about the photo with the ball morphs... I see like one pile of FRESH CRAP where the paper is still wet for 6 snakes, and the picture with the mouse what is that, he could have been trying to feed. Couldn't he have? I didn't see any poor cnditioned snakes in any of the photo's, I did see crap in the pictures but the guy(bryon) taking the photo should have cleaned them if that was HIS JOB. But all that is his story and pictures. We all know we deal with LIVE animals that USE the BATHROOM REGULAR, YES we clean the cages as much as we can but at any point we COULD walk into any Reptile Room and find at least one crappy cage if you are dealing with several different types of reptiles. I am not saying it is OK to find Crap in cages I am just saying Reptiles use the bathroom and you might clean the cage and leave the room and come back 20 minutes later to find WET paper and instead of taking photo's to slam someone that I worked for I would have cleaned. I see other motives in this case....After all he was an employee of Allens, Why would he go through the trouble to hold a dated news paper up in all of his pictures, Damn Bryon clean them cages and let your boss know what you found...But you would rather take pictures and post them on the BOI. Just clean the crap up...LOL.

As I stated before I have not talked to Allen about this post and he did not ask me to write this. I only see Allen at the Local Reptile shows about once a month and I have never been to his place of buiness. I have sold/gotten animals from him and they were all fine and in good health, all of the ball morphs were in great condition and if I would have had the extra cash I would have purchased some of them. I just feel that this is a attemp to screw allen and one of his business'. Allen may not have the cleanest business cages but none of us know the true condition of the cages or if he might have added the spilt water to make them look worse then they really are. That is just my opinion. So I hope Bill and Amy don't accuse me of being anything else than living in the same state. Like they stated in another post about it not being just a coincident. :scatter: I'am outta here
See ya David

 

[Bill & Amy]

Maybe so, but Bryon was there for six weeks, so should his indignation at the situation have moved him to action sooner if things are as we have been told?

OK so if I interpreted this wrong than what did you mean?

 

[Bill & Amy]

What if this? What if that?

We could play that game all day!! But when it comes down to it, evidence was provided and has not been denied or disclaimed. If its not true there is nothing to stop Allen from posting the truth. If he has read this thread, why no comment? You guys can play "Conspiracy Theory" all day, it doesn't change the facts.

 

[shrap]

Bryon,

I for one completely understand and believe what you are saying and believe your intentions to be honorable. I do not believe you to have any ulterior motive.

I too, if I were in your shoes, would have first tried to better the situation for those animals. Then if I was hamstrung in my efforts to do so and was forced by the animals owner to watch them live in such squaller I too would have brought this to the attention of the community.

I think you did everything right. You were newly hired to help with the animals and you thought that is exactly what you were going to get to do. Then when you found out that your new boss did not care about the animals, their health or his customers you took the next logical step. You made the community aware of the situation when you seen Allen had no intentions of changing how he ran his operation.

I personally applaud you for standing up for what you believe in and for doing what you felt was right.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Please elaborate Hill 4803 ....

Here's your statement relative to what you knew of Bryon's job from post #25:

Wow, I know you were pretty hyped about this job a couple of weeks ago. Sorry it turned into such a nightmare.

and I believe this to be the full context of where I referenced your statement in post #37:

..... Bryon was there for six weeks, so should his indignation at the situation have moved him to action sooner if things are as we have been told? We also have this from an acquaintance of Bryon's in post #25:

Quote from 4803:
Wow, I know you were pretty hyped about this job a couple of weeks ago.

Its not so much that I question Bryon's motives, as I truly do not know. But I don't want to make conclusive assumptions as to it all either.

So, when you state this Hill 4803 in post #45:

Jim, please do not try to read anything into my posts that is not there.

Do me the favor and tell me what was read into it, or what other comments that I made of it that I have no recollection of making? I only copied it exactly as you had stated it. I copied it because it was the only other informed insight that we had about Bryon's employment at the time besides Bryon's own statements. You provided no additional context at the time, although you then did in post #45, as you deemed it needed more explanation?

To Bryon: Thanks for the further explanation. Exposes such as this are uncommon in the BOI, and certainly attract attention. While much context was presented in the "what" of your allegations, I was one who felt that more context about the "why" of it all was needed, if for no other reason than to eliminate some of the possibilities that I raised as to motivations. I am sure that it has been a busy 24 hours for you. I do have a lingering concern, and am not even beginning to assume that I know the answer (got that guys ... no assumption!)

It is clear that you became frustrated with the continuing lack of good husbandry, your inability to impact it as you thought necessary, and other concerns about Allen in general which troubled you. You made a decision to document all and bring it here. Did you give thought about telling Allen that you felt compelled to do an expose if he did not make drastic changes, and if so, what did you do and how did you decide? I can think of reasons to, and not to, confront him about it, but I was not in your shoes. I am genuinely curious, as I imagine that the last few weeks were very difficult, and have no doubt that you anguished over many things. Thanks.

 

[Chameleon Company]

In answer to your question as to "what I meant" Bill, I would ask you to reread all of post #37 again if it still concerns you. I was respectfully bantering with Tom over his agreement with Bryon's actions as being "how an employee should act", and based on the information we had at that point in the thread, suggesting that the "when" of it all could also be speculated, more of a "what, when, and why". I thought that I bent over backwards to indicate what were hypotheticals, and made many statements supportive of Bryon, several of which are right there in post #37. I thought that I was raising questions, the answers to which would better define everything (if we could get answers), and some took the "?" off the ends of my sentances and made them conclusions. Whether readers here wanted to take Bryon's evidence with a grain of salt or not, the preponderance of it all was overwhelmingly powerful in how it painted Allen and his business. I obviously enjoy a good banter and a good discussion, but felt that excessive liberties were being taken with my words.
If I were to ever sit with Bryon, I would not be asking him to tell me all the details on how disgusting things were, as they were more than disgusting enough. I would be asking him about his own thoughts on how it all came to this for him, about the process of how his early optimism turned to such justifiable disilluson. I thank him for some of the insight he has already provided there.
While I can sympathize somewhat with the views expressed by a few that "wholesale" husbandry conditions may be substandard to "hobbyist" husbandry, I don't think it excuses any of what is in the pictures. Like many, I have to look at "Allen the businessman", with high-end balls being kept in squalor, and without even getting so far as his ethical obligation to his animals and customers, wonder about his obligations to himself.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Bryon,

I for one completely understand and believe what you are saying and believe your intentions to be honorable. I do not believe you to have any ulterior motive.

I too, if I were in your shoes, would have first tried to better the situation for those animals. Then if I was hamstrung in my efforts to do so and was forced by the animals owner to watch them live in such squaller I too would have brought this to the attention of the community.

I think you did everything right. You were newly hired to help with the animals and you thought that is exactly what you were going to get to do. Then when you found out that your new boss did not care about the animals, their health or his customers you took the next logical step. You made the community aware of the situation when you seen Allen had no intentions of changing how he ran his operation.

I personally applaud you for standing up for what you believe in and for doing what you felt was right.

Ditto Sammy!

Regards.

 

[Scott Ashton]

-Within 6 weeks Bryon realized that working at Big Daddy's Wholesale was not the dream job he thought it was going to be. He attempted to effect change despite being used for odd-jobs away from the reptile business. Realizing nothing was going to change and troubled by what he had seen/experienced Bryon left his job. Left as in didn't wait for another job to come along and then make a move, but left over principal.

-I have to tell you that is a gutsy move in my book. We'd all like to think we would do the same thing - but push come to shove - how many of us would just gut it out until we could find another paycheck?

-As far as litigation goes - Bryon was an "at-will employee" and short of him having executed an NDA or other restrictive covenant - that's pretty much a moot issue.

-For those of you defending Allen's business practices - keep going, you are doing us all a service by showing us your true nature.

 

[dzoo]

Thanks for bringing this to the publics attention. It is obvious that your concern for the animals was your first concern, although for your sake it probably would have been best to remain anonymous. Never the less, it is out there, and will hopefully motivate Allen to invest more time and effort into caring for his animals.

It is obvious from the pictures that this operation is not very organized or proffesional. Just from the pictures, i.e using lightweight plastic food containers for water bowls, obviously these will be knocked over and wet the cages, the rotting mice in cages, un-protected heat lamps, cups of animals sitting on the floor, live mice left unattended with snakes, build up of feces etc. Bad husbandry at best, cruelty to animals at worst.

I am sure when Byron stepped into this operation it was as much as he could do to keep up with the daily responsibilities he was assaigned no less devote extra time to cleaning up a mess that has obviously not happened overnight. Plus, as an employee, it was not really his responsibility to do things he was not told to do.

Seems like Allen night have his hands in too many projects/businesses to do really well with any one (breeding, wholesaling, party jumpers (??), laying pipe, breeding rodents)

A lot of people are shocked that there are expensive morphs involved - thats what happens when a new fad hits, people see $$$$$ and get into it but don't realize that you actually have to WORK at it to achieve the results. They're good at buying or aquiring the animals but then put no effort into the husbandry. Like a "puppy mill" but with snakes.

 

[hill4803]

I was not the person who mentioned that Bryon worked with Allen for 6 weeks. I may have misread your post. I indicated that my conversation with Bryon was awhile back. Your post gave the impression that Bryon was satisfied with these working conditions for an extended period of time and is now bringing this issue forward for some mysterious reason. However, I still think Bryon did what he could and to say that he should/could have acted sooner is an indication to me that you believe Bryon could/should have done something other than what he has done. And Yes, I do believe my statement deemed more explaination as you seemingly want to make a bigger deal out of what has been said than it really needs to be.

As far as asking why this situation is as it is, we'll have to hear Allen's side to this. Instead of "killing the messenger" and casting doubt on the motives/truthfulness of Bryon's post, maybe we can wait to interrogate the person responsible for this mess. To repeatedly ask "What did you do? What did he do?" is really a waste of time. It seems apparent that someone has neglected their responsibilities, has poor business ethics, and a "couldn't care less" attitude about their employees, animals, and customers. The person who could answer all the questions and clear this up isn't talking.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Hill 4803, neither of us have said one positive thing about Allen.

And our issue is not about Allen's redeeming qualities, as there don't seem to be any, and I have to wholeheartedly agree that he can come here in his own defense. With regard to the issue that does exist between us, these are your words from your most recent post:

I was not the person who mentioned that Bryon worked with Allen for 6 weeks. I may have misread your post. I indicated that my conversation with Bryon was awhile back. Your post gave the impression that Bryon was satisfied with these working conditions for an extended period of time and is now bringing this issue forward for some mysterious reason.

FYI, Bryon had mentioned "six weeks" in the very first post. You then provided this information in post #25:

Wow, I know you were pretty hyped about this job a couple of weeks ago.

If you now say that when you said a "couple of weeks ago" you actually meant to say "awhile back", then so be it. I didn't provide any other interpretation or impression, as you allege. I copied your words exactly, and did not take them put of context. Do you understand now why I used your quote? 6-2=4.