Allen Belcher / Big Daddy's Wholesale ... WARNING

[Chameleon Company]

I meant "thanks Kevin and Ron" ..

To Justin. I respect your views. I take some issue with this part of your post to Bryon:

If you felt so strongly that you did not have the opportunity to clean them on company time then why didn't you make extra time , come in on the weekends etc..?

I respect your right to a concern there. It is not an issue for me though. If Allen had given Bryon the opportunity to work extra, even if paid, I don't think less of Bryon that he did not do it. It is highly likely he was not given the choice, or if he was, it would have been on his own time. Some may feel that he had an obligation, given his concerns. I don't. We each have different concerns.

 

[Cat_72]

FINALLY...something on this thread I can completely agree with you about, Jim.

And for the record, NO, I did not contact the Alabama DNR, because, 1. Bryon said he was in indeed getting in contact with the correct people, and 2. I honestly did not think the DNR dealt with this sort of thing. My understanding of DNR is more dealing with either native species or illegally imprted animals, not the husbandry of such. I was looking for contacts with the USDA animal husbandry inspectors in that area.

 

[Justin Mitcham]

Obligations aside....if Allen isn't going to do it and Bryon isn't as well ...then who is...sorry but the animals take precedence in my opinion. Maybe some are ok with going home and leaving them in that condition...not me..to me it's a Moral judgement call...maybe my morals are better than most. Point is I would of figured out a reason why I could, not why I couldn't...

 

[Chameleon Company]

Cat 72 !

FINALLY...something on this thread I can completely agree with you about, Jim.

LOL ! I was thinking it wasn't meant to be ! As to the DNR thing, I only used your post as an opportunity to inform all who were blaming others (mostly me, I think) for not being concerned enough about the animals, that I may have taken more action than them. In fact, my several calls didn't end with DNR, but I am not going to divuge all the details, except to say I made them. I did also talk to Allen about his husbandry. Not at length, but he understands that he has not gotten a free-pass from me.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Justin ....

Justin says:
..... Point is I would of figured out a reason why I could, not why I couldn't...

Well said.

 

[Laura Fopiano]

I have always loved many in-your-face statements, especially when I agree with the protest, comical or otherwise ! I commend you for it, and when they say a picture is worth a thousand words, lets not forget that some are worth two thousand!
_________________
__________________

Gee Jim, don't you think that those pictures that Bryon posted are worth at least 4000 words or more, just a little to in your face for your liking huh.............common......what are you backing this person???

Bryon....The conditions depicted in the pictures are deplorable at best...but one thing does bother me about your posts.. I have a long history of working with wholesalers, over 10 year to be exact, several years ago I was in basically the same situation you were, one person hired to clean ,pack,ship ,inspect , feed etc...one person taking care of all aspects of the animals, and were not talking just a few hundred , but thousands of animals so I know how daunting and seemingly impossible such a task can seem....
But I did it... my schedule was 9am-5pm , for one week straight I worked until the wee hours of the morning to clean, feed and catch up on stuff I couldn't do earlier...I was paid on salary, my job was to do everything,drop off shipments, receive , make sells calls etc... as well as maintain the animals. No matter how busy or overloaded I became I still found time to make sure the animals were taking care of even if it meant staying all night...it was a responsibility that I undertook ethically and business wise.. (then there were my own animals at home!!!). If you felt so strongly that you did not have the opportunity to clean them on company time then why didn't you make extra time , come in on the weekends etc..?

Justin....have you been reading this whole thread?? Bryon was asked to lay sewer lines and other non reptile realated jobs!!

Wow this thread blew up after I went to bed last night. First off, I will say if anyone here has a problem understanding Jim's post maybe you should take an English class.

Thanx Ron, but I know how to read..........

But the source for all of my questions and conclusions are right here in this thread. I pursued questions based on info provided by both Bryon and Allen, but my conclusions are all based on Bryon's initial statements, or his later answers. I have also spoken to about a half-dozen other entities by phone or email, but only used whatever I gleaned there to frame questions to Bryon. Bryon's own words and actions provide the basis for all of my stated conclusions here. There is more that I have not posted here, although I have corroborating evidence. Kind of hoping Bryon would be more open about it. Again, its not about the thread being here. Its about other choices Bryon made. Those choices undermine his credibility here, IMO, and even if standing by themselves, I view them as reprehensible.

Puuuuuulllllleazeeee give me a break!! What's reprehensible is your attack on Bryon........I will paypal you the money for our Super Bowl bet, I am a lady of integrity and principle and prefer to dine alone. ( Yes Mods, off topic, but needed to be said for my own piece of mind) I always honor my bets!! And I'm willing to bet there's a lot more between Jim and Allen, than meets the eye.........nice company you keep Jim........real nice.

 

[norsmis]

Thanx Ron, but I know how to read..........

This wasn't directed at you Laura it was directed at the people who have a problem (there were a few) who complained they couldn't understand Jim's post or the "big" words he used......

 

[Chameleon Company]

Laura, forgive me if I am laughing !!!!

And despite what you may think, its more with you than at you !

Laura says:
Puuuuuulllllleazeeee give me a break!! What's reprehensible is your attack on Bryon........I will paypal you the money for our Super Bowl bet, I am a lady of integrity and principle and prefer to dine alone. ( Yes Mods, off topic, but needed to be said for my own piece of mind) I always honor my bets!! And I'm willing to bet there's a lot more between Jim and Allen, than meets the eye.........nice company you keep Jim........real nice.

BTW, a PayPal of the debt was not the bet. You have shown some deficiencies in your betting prognostications ...... all that I have stated in the thread about my contact with both Allen and Bryon is absolute fact. There's nothing else except certain pricipals that I hold dear, dear. Please do not bet that I may be lying. That would make you 0-2. Do me one favor, if you have the time, and just put up the post #'s of my posts that supported Allen. An attack on Bryon, if you choose to call them that, is not to champion Allen. 80% of the posts in this thread support Bryon, and most of them are devoid of support for Allen. Did you hope that I would tip it to 90%. I have problems with both parties Laura, and have stated such a dozen times now. I do not need to be balanced, as everyone who is critical of Allen has covered my back there. My choice anyway !! I gave you points too (in the Super Bowl, that is) Steelers covered!

 

[kmurphy]

It is amazing to me the some are ready to hang Jim for offering different approach to this. I've been reading BOI threads for about a year now and often times I've seen where everyone backs the original poster until someone asks a seemingly off the wall question. Then, with more digging, it turns out that it wasn't so black and white after all, and sometimes the original poster is actually the bad guy.

I am certainly not saying that is the case here but discovering all the facts is what an inquiry is all about.

 

[Griz]

It is amazing to me the some are ready to hang Jim for offering different approach to this. I've been reading BOI threads for about a year now and often times I've seen where everyone backs the original poster until someone asks a seemingly off the wall question. Then, with more digging, it turns out that it wasn't so black and white after all, and sometimes the original poster is actually the bad guy.

I am certainly not saying that is the case here but discovering all the facts is what an inquiry is all about.

And that's the ticket here. I figured from the get go that this is the stance Jim was taking. Is it the stance I take? Nope, not in this case. Why? Because the original intent of this thread was husbandry, not work ethics, not why didn't you stay until 2 am to clean cages, not what type of employee you are......

Jim, I have nothing, and I mean nothing but respect for you. 99% of the time I think you are right on the money. But, this thread went from a husbandry thread to people becoming involved in ways that never should have taken place. Bryon's work ethics and how he handled his communication with Allen is not relevant to the original intent of this thread. I could not care less if Bryon never mentioned his disgust with Allen over his husbandry skills or lack thereof. The fact of the matter remains is that Allen owned the animals and it is his responsibility to ensure they are taken care of. Whether he hired Bryon to clean the cages or lay pipe is irrelevant when it comes down to the well-being of the animals. Allen failed in his responsibility and I, as a potential buyer, am glad to see these conditions come to light.

Jim, I know you do not support Allen and I trust that there are no ulterior motives here as that's not your style. But, placing blame, any blame on Bryon is irresponsible at best. The onus lies with Allen regardless of Bryon's conduct.

Griz

 

[Griz]

Bryon....The conditions depicted in the pictures are deplorable at best...but one thing does bother me about your posts.. I have a long history of working with wholesalers, over 10 year to be exact, several years ago I was in basically the same situation you were, one person hired to clean ,pack,ship ,inspect , feed etc...one person taking care of all aspects of the animals, and were not talking just a few hundred , but thousands of animals so I know how daunting and seemingly impossible such a task can seem....
But I did it... my schedule was 9am-5pm , for one week straight I worked until the wee hours of the morning to clean, feed and catch up on stuff I couldn't do earlier...I was paid on salary, my job was to do everything,drop off shipments, receive , make sells calls etc... as well as maintain the animals. No matter how busy or overloaded I became I still found time to make sure the animals were taking care of even if it meant staying all night...it was a responsibility that I undertook ethically and business wise.. (then there were my own animals at home!!!). If you felt so strongly that you did not have the opportunity to clean them on company time then why didn't you make extra time , come in on the weekends etc..?
What we saw in the pics happened on your watch PERIOD...was your paid responsibility to make sure it didn't happen. Wether led off task or not...it is your responsibility in the end!!!
If at the end of the day the job is not done and it is time to go home and you do...no matter how much BS or crap you endured that day..you are as responsible as Allen for letting things get and stay that way.
IMO

Laughable at best Justin. With all due respect, Bryon has to have a life and I am sure has responsibilities well outside of his 9-5 schedule. I understand that you would have stayed late a few days to clean the cage. For that matter, I would have too. But, I would not, under any circumstance, have done this continually, week after week. To suggest otherwise is not realistic.

Griz

 

[Justin Mitcham]

Justin....have you been reading this whole thread?? Bryon was asked to lay sewer lines and other non reptile realated jobs!!

I saw that, maybe I am just use to working harder than most to get the job done, usually in life people who go the extra mile are more succeful than those who give up when faced with a seemingly insurmountable task...

 

[Scott Ashton]

BTW, a PayPal of the debt was not the bet.

Jim - finally some much needed levity in this thread.

I too won a bet with Ms. Cox.

Sounds like the stakes were higher with our bet. She is flying me out west for dinner.

I know her to be a woman of honor and have spoken with her regarding your wager.

To that regard I will be in Florida on business at the end of this month and she has requested that I serve as her proxy in the awarding of your dinner-date. Alternately I would be happy simply to present you with the gift certificate to Denny's.

I look forward to breaking bread with you on her tab.

 

[Justin Mitcham]

How do we know for sure Bryon wasn't part of the problem? Allen hinted at he had problems with him talking on his cell etc... when he should be cleaning, maybe Allens problem is he wasn't a good manager? Your right the ultimate responsibility lies with Allen, but if Allen hired Bryon to do a Job and Bryon just is too lazy to get it done then he should of been fired...
Also
Didn't Bryon have an animal that died of mouth rot from his own collection...in my own experiences filth and general lack of care is usually the cause...Mouth rot doesn't happen overnite and usually vet care can clean it up easily enough...

Personally I think both guys contributed...
maybe Bryon should post his cellphone records for us to see how much time he spent on that phone while he was working?

 

[Chameleon Company]

Griz, I thank you, and we have been on the same side of the fence many times ...

Bryon's work ethics and how he handled his communication with Allen is not relevant to the original intent of this thread.

And here we disagree, as you acknowledge. As I have said before, the motives of the accusor have everything to do with the credibility of the evidence or testimony he brings to the table. Additionally, how he has conducted himself in all efforts made to fix things speaks to his character, and again to the weight we give to his claims. BTW, if you initiate a "bad guy" thread here, IMO you are just as much liable to scrutiny as the accused, and do not get any "hands off" pass from me. No one need agree with my ethics or standards there. But as you know, I damn sure am not going to back off them just to go with the flow. I accuse Bryon of omitting actions that I feel he needed to attempt in some fashion. I accuse him of taking actions that were way beyond getting this thread here, possibly to the point of malicious intent. I do not queston that his husbandry concerns at Allen's were worthy of a BOI thread. I am obviously not wearing rose-colored glasses, and don't care for them. My concerns started when I read Post #1. If the Mod's think I am continually straying off-topic, they will LMK. At least a few readers here are OK with it. I do respect your opinions Griz. You can bank that.

 

[Griz]

How do we know for sure Bryon wasn't part of the problem? Allen hinted at he had problems with him talking on his cell etc... when he should be cleaning, maybe Allens problem is he wasn't a good manager? Your right the ultimate responsibility lies with Allen, but if Allen hired Bryon to do a Job and Bryon just is too lazy to get it done then he should of been fired...
Also
Didn't Bryon have an animal that died of mouth rot from his own collection...in my own experiences filth and general lack of care is usually the cause...Mouth rot doesn't happen overnite and usually vet care can clean it up easily enough...

Personally I think both guys contributed...
maybe Bryon should post his cellphone records for us to see how much time he spent on that phone while he was working?

Understood, but as we all know, this is nothing but speculation and I for one, do not want to be party to requesting members cell phone records etc. We are a forum, not Dog the Bounty Hunter.

Again, regardless of who failed to clean the cages, it is still Allen's responsibility. That was the original intent of the thread and should remain our focus, albeit this horse has been beaten enough I think!

Griz

 

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

I’m sure I’m going to regret posting in this thread.

Let me start with~ I like Bryon. I recall chatting with him when he first got this job and how excited he was. I don’t like the way Bryon quit his job though~ and I think that’s what some of the people who are saying Bryon should have done it differently have a problem with. I don’t know how to describe it~ but maybe by responding to this quote:

If I was going to hit someone would I really say " Hey dude , hold still , I'm going to pop you a goodone ' ? Doubt it.

Well~ while maybe I wouldn’t have told him to hold still~ I would let him know it was “on” so he might at least see it coming. Just quitting your job and “outing” your employer with no indication that it was “on” was bad form my friend. And that’s exactly what I would have told you had I been available when you were apparently discussing it these last several weeks. I’ve had very strong convictions of what’s “right” and “wrong” as an employee drilled into me for all of my life~ and I can’t imagine leaving a job without at least offering two weeks notice (I did leave one once~ but I quit while I was being fired~ so everyone was on the same page). That’s also why when I first read this post I was conflicted in my feelings about it. Allen is in the wrong. The photo’s demonstrate it Clearly. But your hands are not completely clean in my view.

I hope we can still be buddies~ even if I don’t agree with way you went about what you did~ you probably are saving some heartache for others.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Off topic ............Scott, thanks but....

......To that regard I will be in Florida on business at the end of this month and she has requested that I serve as her proxy in the awarding of your dinner-date. Alternately I would be happy simply to present you with the gift certificate to Denny's.

Laura can rest easy, as I will remind her that she only had to pay at a time that we were in the same state, either me in CA or her in FL., at the same time. I will not consider her a chump if such a moment is long-coming. If its ever to be paid at Denny's, it should probably be breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

 

[kmurphy]

But, this thread went from a husbandry thread to people becoming involved in ways that never should have taken place. Bryon's work ethics and how he handled his communication with Allen is not relevant to the original intent of this thread.

You say that, Griz, but BOI threads always take twists and turns and many times get completely off topic. Like it is now.
What if (and believe I do not believe this is what has happened) Bryon has an axe to grind with Allen and set-up the whole thing. The direction of this thread would turn pretty fast. The point is you don't know what direction to take until you try them all. Jim's stance certainly isn't popular but I can't see banning him from anyone's friendship list for it. If I only had friends that agreed with me I don't think it would be a very long list, and I probably wouldn't like the guy or gal.

 

[Griz]

And here we disagree, as you acknowledge. As I have said before, the motives of the accusor have everything to do with the credibility of the evidence or testimony he brings to the table. Additionally, how he has conducted himself in all efforts made to fix things speaks to his character, and again to the weight we give to his claims. BTW, if you initiate a "bad guy" thread here, IMO you are just as much liable to scrutiny as the accused, and do not get any "hands off" pass from me. No one need agree with my ethics or standards there. But as you know, I damn sure am not going to back off them just to go with the flow. I accuse Bryon of omitting actions that I feel he needed to attempt in some fashion. I accuse him of taking actions that were way beyond getting this thread here, possibly to the point of malicious intent. I do not queston that his husbandry concerns at Allen's were worthy of a BOI thread. I am obviously not wearing rose-colored glasses, and don't care for them. My concerns started when I read Post #1. If the Mod's think I am continually straying off-topic, they will LMK. At least a few readers here are OK with it. I do respect your opinions Griz. You can bank that.

Agreed completely. The accused and the accuser needs to undergo scrutiny, no doubt about that. But, the original thread was very simple. It was that Allen's husbandry skills were poor and that animals were being kept in sub-par conditions. That was it. With the pictures, along with Allen's feable attempt at an explanation, I am dumbfounded how this thread became what it is today. I said before, the onus is on Allen not Bryon to care for those animals therefore the results of Bryon's termination interview are irrelevant. I just do not see what one has to do with the other.

I am sure if we looked hard enough we could pretty much discredit any person on this board, you and I included. But, at times, you have to take things at face value especially given the prior information the BOI has provided.

When looking at the value of our time, I often see forums such as these as a huge detriment to society. Sure they are fun and often times serve a purpose, but if we were to spend half the time volunteering that we spend here then wouldn't we all be in a better place.........

Anyways, I digress......

Griz