Allen Belcher / Big Daddy's Wholesale ... WARNING

[big daddy's wholesal]

The poss. het animals Bryon moved. I only put the ones back that I knew (because of a very obvious size difference) belonged. I have explained this once prior.
The other case that you refer to is that gentleman bought three ltc females off an add on reptibid that specifically stated what they were. I sent him pictures of every female I had left at that point with weights. He picked the ones that he wanted from the pictures and that was what he got. He never disputed that! He also stated at a later point in that thread that he did in fact prove that they were females, because that was brought into question also.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Chris ....

Amongst other things you said ..

Right Jim, but then there's always that possibility that Allen has lied straight faced to you. Just take a look at track records, that can kinda tell you the persons integrity for the truth.

If you where a blind man Jim, and i told you that the sun is bright green, the grasss is grey and your hair was actually BLUE, then you would believe me if no one else told you different. You have alot of people here telling you different, it's your choice to decide otherwise.

Want to explain that "blind" thing again? If I were blind, what kind of a person would assume I knew what blue looked like, and how could it possibly matter to me?

I do not know who has lied, and am taking neither ones complete words to the bank. I also don't see it so much as an issue of "lying", but more one of integrity. You can look for the lies all you want. The truth can be hidden without being displaced by a lie. I know that Bryon made choices relative to this event that I cannot justify, that he did not need to do in order to come to the BOI. I question his honor, ethics, and integrity. As I believe that half-truths and spin abound, I am not calling him a liar.

Yes, they both have track records in my book. Bad things on both. You say that we can "kinda tell" by them. Kinda? That's real conclusive! You are welcome to your conclusions about whomever, but at this point in the thread, do you think I am not aware that I am in the minority, and have you not realized by now that I do not care which way the wind is blowing here?

Chris, you just provided Rich with his beer money a few hours ago. Thanks for the insight on how to judge integrity !

 

[HerpLuver]

I see you've done the same not that long ago Jim. Join the club. See i only have 2 though, and one was my newbie self misplacing a post. 3 in the under a year Jim? All for being uncivilized? What was that statement earlier about the pots all calling the one kettle black?

 

[shrap]

The poss. het animals Bryon moved. I only put the ones back that I knew (because of a very obvious size difference) belonged. I have explained this once prior.
The other case that you refer to is that gentleman bought three ltc females off an add on reptibid that specifically stated what they were. I sent him pictures of every female I had left at that point with weights. He picked the ones that he wanted from the pictures and that was what he got. He never disputed that! He also stated at a later point in that thread that he did in fact prove that they were females, because that was brought into question also.

Allen, thanks for answering my questions.

I must say though that both of these scenarios were explained very differently by Bryon and Todd. Completely unrelated people in completely unrelated incidences.

Here is a link to Todd's thread. I do believe it was posted once already in this thread but just to be safe..... http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65274

Really at this point no one seems to be able to provide any proof to back up what they are saying so folks are just going to have to make a decision on who they believe. I really don't know what else can be accomplished in this thread without further documentation.

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

The poss. het animals Bryon moved. I only put the ones back that I knew (because of a very obvious size difference) belonged. I have explained this once prior.
The other case that you refer to is that gentleman bought three ltc females off an add on reptibid that specifically stated what they were. I sent him pictures of every female I had left at that point with weights. He picked the ones that he wanted from the pictures and that was what he got. He never disputed that! He also stated at a later point in that thread that he did in fact prove that they were females, because that was brought into question also.

Allen

You are sort of glossing over the fact that he never wavered from his claims that the animals were dramatically under the weights claimed by you. He also never wavered from his original statement that the animals were tick infested and seemed to be fresh imports, not LTC.

If you are going to use a past situation to bolster your status here you can't simply pick the one aspect that favors you. The thread you are citing was a "bad guy" thread and never anything else.

I have avoided this thread since inception due to the fact that it is essentially a "he said, he said" situation. A few points have caught my eye though that I would like to point out.


While I don't necessarily agree that Bryon's methods were something I would emulate, I actually tend to believe the evidence he set forth for a couple of reasons.

1.) No actual motive has been stated by anyone that would make me accept the fact that this entire situation was set up maliciously. Allen's inference that this was precipitated by the incident with Bryon's sick Boa is a pretty preposterous stretch. No other axe to grind has been inferred or stated

2.) Allen plainly in his Email to Bryon not only wanted to mend fences, he wanted Bryon to continue working for him. This is not a request you make of someone that you consider an inferior employee.

3.) The pics Bryon presented do not look staged in any way to me.

4.) Absolutely nothing has been pointed out that would constitute anything to gain for Bryon in starting this thread.

5.) Allen has not really supplied any solid explanations for the situations shown in the pics. He attempted to but it sounded more like the response of someone used to handling business situations as they arise, the ring of truth really wasn't there. As most have commented, he chose to make personal attacks on Bryon in his initial response. This comes off as diversions rather than defense. The embellishments and selective bits left out of statements in order to improve his position support this statement as well. In one spot he stated that he loaned Bryon money to get through the Holidays. Bryon then specifically stated that he simply advanced him $100 towards his next weeks salary. Both nice acts by Allen however his statement makes it sound like a far bigger deal. The statement about the clean bill of health on the inspection and leaving out the fact that the facility that was actually in question was not inspected. All of this would lead me to believe that we are simply dealing with a person who has a lot of experience in spinning a situation in his favor.

We have absolutely no one who has ever had a problem with Bryon professionally or otherwise that has spoken up here. No character issues in the past that we are aware of at all. On the other hand, we have another incident of substandard, misrepresented animals documented against Allen

Jim

Unless you are holding back something from your conversations with either Bryon or Allen, I can only surmise that your opinion has been formed, not necessarily from the evidence presented, but more from the demeanor of both of them during the conversations. If that is the case then i am rather surprised. You have not presented any hard facts to support the inference that Bryon is lying. You do, however, seem to be accepting what Allen has said at face value. I admit to being somewhat confused by this logic unless, like I said, you have more info you have not shatred.

Bottom line.

Do I agree with Bryon's methods? Not really, it was a bit sneaky for my tastes and not above boards.

Do I think he was right to start this thread? Most definitely.

Do I believe that he has pretty much presented the situation in an honest manner here? Yes.

Do I believe the edited and self serving statements made by Allen? Not really. I think he is someone who has been caught with his pants down and has an innate ability to spin a bad situation to make himself appear the wronged party. Unfortunately, that is rarely an ability that is developed to a true art without a lot of practice.
__________________

 

[shrap]

Excellent post Mr. Schmitt!!!!

I think you have put together a perfect summary. Outstanding!!!

 

[BryonsBoas]

Jim

Trust , respect and loyalty are earned , not given. When an employer goes behind an employee's back and buys out what the employee asked him to arrange for him , per employer instructions , does that mean an employee MUST still trust , respect and be absolutely loyal to the employer ? The employer who did this not once but twice.

When an employee is told one thing by his employer then 2 weeks later the story changes , not on just one occassion but a few , does this mean the employee should have all these aspects towards his employer?

These aspects fall true in buisiness and personal lives. Just because Allen was the employer and I was ( I've been corrected as to my position ) a contractor employed by Allen , does this mean I should hold Allen to higher level of trust , respect and loyalty than he has to me?

The day I talked to Allen to about the job we both discussed his plans , rules , conditions and job duties. I clearly stated to Allen , who brought up his previous BOI thread , that at anytime he went shady we had probs. I would be out of the picture and Allen would be busted. I also told Allen that my collection would not suffer the job. I've been down that road before. As far as Allen's rules , some of those came along as we went. As far as pictures go , Allen never stated , posted or implied that pics could not be taken . I never signed a disclosure form either. I did however give Allen the respect of asking for permission to take pics before. No time limit , area of concern or stipulations were rendered by Allen.Since I never filled out tax forms or an application I was legally a contractor employed by Allen.

As far as Allen taking advice. The nigh we got back from the Birmingham show Allen asked me to put leos that he bought at the show in with his breeders. I told him he needed to quarentine. I put them up and left after I put away as many critters as could fit. The leos were housed together with intentions to rehouse else for quarentine. Monday came and Allen told me he spent Sunday on the phone with leo breeders who told him he didn't need to quarentine. I told Allen to do as he wished with his animals. Allen took my advice until he found someone to tell him what he wanted to hear.

Every time we were in the wholesale room I asked Allen to put time in my schedule to clean the room. Allen's response was typically " Yeah , it needs cleaning , it can be done later ". I brought quite a few issues to bear with Allen only to be shot down or disregaurded.

5 employees have walked away from Allen and quit. $ of which were dedicated reptile folks. The 5th was a young man who was involved in a car wreck. Allen said he paid the guy $300 a week the whole time he was down for injuries. Amazingly enough the guy would not come back to work for Allen. This means either Allen is a horrible judge of character or something just wasn't right. Anyone notice a pattern? 5 employees walk off from 1 employer?

At the time I quit I did have issues with Allen . The reason I told Allen I'd walk and bust him if he got shady was because I didn't want to be associated to that. Did I damage my reputation by doing this the way I did. I'm sure I have . Will it take me time and effort to build that back? Yes it will and it won't be easy . But it won't be from anything connected to selling dirty and screwed up animals.

For anyone who thinks this is personal , you'll notice I kept out as much personal problems with Allen as I could. Allen brought my personal buisiess into this thread to make himself look better. Its very difficult to not take things in this ordeal personally but I knew things like this would happen when I decided to do this. Between me and Allen , I'm the one who has been here every night to defend himself , to defend what i've done and admit to any mistakes I've made doing it. I think everyone hee knows I could have done this better and differently. That horse is about 20 feet down and looks like a milkshake.

As to what I've said , what I've presented , I will hold to as the truth. Here and in court , I won't waver from what I've said . I have no reason to , There is nothin for me to gain and everything to loose by doing this. Any respect I might have gained by som I've lost from others . That is a consequece I'm prepared to accept.

As far as Allen , I owe nothing to a man that I don't respect and trust , my loyalties were shattered by Allen well before I did anything here or quit.

 

[BryonsBoas]

Forgot spell check again. $ = 5

 

[BryonsBoas]

Dangit , $ does = 4 . must rember spellcheck , must remember spell check

 

[Chameleon Company]

Its a lot of reading John:

Jim

Unless you are holding back something from your conversations with either Bryon or Allen, I can only surmise that your opinion has been formed, not necessarily from the evidence presented, but more from the demeanor of both of them during the conversations. If that is the case then i am rather surprised. You have not presented any hard facts to support the inference that Bryon is lying. You do, however, seem to be accepting what Allen has said at face value. I admit to being somewhat confused by this logic unless, like I said, you have more info you have not shatred.

But, I will ask you to show me where I said or inferred he was lying. I said I took his words with a large grain of salt. I have the emails to document things alleged in post #202. Allen mentioned their existence as well. I will not post them here unless Bryon says that they do not exist, or that the exchange did not happen. Several of those actions which Bryon chose of his own free will are the facts that I judge him by in this event. I do not like making assumptions about what surely exists as fact somewhere, but I have numerous posts in this thread which I feel contradict your statement that "you seem to be taking what Allen has said at face value", and am left assuming that you may not have read them. I see a huge amount of opportunity to take neither party at face value, and that is as I have done from the beginning. I respect your choice to take Bryon verbatim, but choose to do otherwise.

My logic is derived from my life's experiences. If someone comes to me complaining about someone else, expecting me to believe that part of their assertions that require I have faith in the accusors veracity, I am going to do some probing. If I find that they conducted themselves dishonorably or with what I consider unnaceptable ethics in the choices they have made in the event, they just pulled the plug on any assumption I will extend them that they are telling me the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Its kind of like the old "fool me once ..... " thing. You suggest that I may be basing my call on "demeanor", while I have posted my factual reasons for doubt many times. Could you reference one time I even hinted that demeanor was a factor, or that I had a "gut" feeling, etc. I have heard several suggest that about their faith in Bryon. I don't believe I have once wasted my breath in this thread questioning the logic of another members idea of who is truthful, who is not. Many, however, cannot accept mine. It has never been a question of which one I believe, as its has never been a "either-or" issue for me. That said, once I reviewed the facts of Bryon's actions that I found deplorable, it was a very easy and certain decision for me to withdraw the assumptions about "all the truth" from what he presented as fact.

On a side note, I find it amazing that with all these opinions here, and all this emotion, and all this condemnation of Allen by people who knew him not at all, just like I, that Allen says in his post that I am the only one here who called him. He put his phone number in his first post, so I called ! That made me the only person here who had had exchanges with both, yet the opportunity was open to all !

I am exceedingly comfortable with my logic.

 

[BryonsBoas]

Allen

Anything posted in thread is covered by any internet laws that apply. To slander , defame or cause harm to a company the company must be a legal entity i.e. legal permits , tax id numbers and licenses . None of which anyone can find in either of the company names I mentioned here. Flopping a table open , throwing animals on it , putting up a logo and making t-shirts a company it doesn't make .

Its also not illegal to send anyone an e-mail unless its threatening. I never mentioned your partner or partners. I've met him and he is a damn good man. Better than us both. Anything I said about you in this thread was about you . I recommended not doing buisines with either of companies . I have that right.

You said yourself that a person can be attacked not a company. YOU are the subject of this thread . Any permits , tax id numbers or licenses issued after the date of my original post is after the fact.

Someone corect me if I'm wrong but isn't the internet covered by Freedom of Speech?

 

[BryonsBoas]

Jim I won't deney them . I wrote them , I know they exist

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

But, I will ask you to show me where I said or inferred he was lying. I said I took his words with a large grain of salt. I have the emails to document things alleged in post #202. Allen mentioned their existence as well. I will not post them here unless Bryon says that they do not exist, or that the exchange did not happen. Several of those actions which Bryon chose of his own free will are the facts that I judge him by in this event. I do not like making assumptions about what surely exists as fact somewhere, but I have numerous posts in this thread which I feel contradict your statement that "you seem to be taking what Allen has said at face value", and am left assuming that you may not have read them. I see a huge amount of opportunity to take neither party at face value, and that is as I have done from the beginning. I respect your choice to take Bryon verbatim, but choose to do otherwise.

My logic is derived from my life's experiences. If someone comes to me complaining about someone else, expecting me to believe that part of their assertions that require I have faith in the accusors veracity, I am going to do some probing. If I find that they conducted themselves dishonorably or with what I consider unnaceptable ethics in the choices they have made in the event, they just pulled the plug on any assumption I will extend them that they are telling me the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Its kind of like the old "fool me once ..... " thing. You suggest that I may be basing my call on "demeanor", while I have posted my factual reasons for doubt many times. Could you reference one time I even hinted that demeanor was a factor, or that I had a "gut" feeling, etc. I have heard several suggest that about their faith in Bryon. I don't believe I have once wasted my breath in this thread questioning the logic of another members idea of who is truthful, who is not. Many, however, cannot accept mine. It has never been a question of which one I believe, as its has never been a "either-or" issue for me. That said, once I reviewed the facts of Bryon's actions that I found deplorable, it was a very easy and certain decision for me to withdraw the assumptions about "all the truth" from what he presented as fact.

On a side note, I find it amazing that with all these opinions here, and all this emotion, and all this condemnation of Allen by people who knew him not at all, just like I, that Allen says in his post that I am the only one here who called him. He put his phone number in his first post, so I called ! That made me the only person here who had had exchanges with both, yet the opportunity was open to all !

I am exceedingly comfortable with my logic.

Jim

My last post was diected towards you only due to confusion as to your train of thought. I have always considered you one of the few members remaining on this board who genuinely considers his thoughts prior to spilling them out on this forum. Please do not take it as an attack. You, like everyone else here, will form their own opinion based on the information presented. My confusion was founded on the fact that you seem to be the only defender of Allen on this forum. With the esxception of the phone conversation you had with Allen and the PM's you shared with Bryon, we have all been privy to the same evedence and statements. You have to admit that such a completely contrary opinion can generate nothing but surprise.

That said, let me address a couple of your comments

I will ask you to show me where I said or inferred he was lying. I said I took his words with a large grain of salt.

Unless I have been using this statement incorrectly for the past 44 years, saying you take something someone says with a grain of salt is saying you do not believe them i.e they are lying.

Several of those actions which Bryon chose of his own free will are the facts that I judge him by in this event.

That said, once I reviewed the facts of Bryon's actions that I found deplorable, it was a very easy and certain decision for me to withdraw the assumptions about "all the truth" from what he presented as fact.

By both of these statements, my interpretation is that since you vehemently disagreed with Bryons methods and actions after he quit in contacting other individuals that Allen had done business with and telling them of the situation and blindsiding Allen (btw...I think both actions were wrong too) you are completely discounting his assessment of the situation at Allen's and lending little or no credence to his staements or evidence.

but I have numerous posts in this thread which I feel contradict your statement that "you seem to be taking what Allen has said at face value",

I have read every post in this thread at least twice. With the exception of a statement that you did believe that Allen's wholesale room had substandard conditions and needed some work, I did not notice a single post of your that directly challenged a single assertion he made in any of his posts. That would lead anyone reading this thread that you have accepted his statements as true on "face value". You have over 75 posts in this thread so I am not saying I might not have missed something. Please point it out if I did.


You also made one cryptic comment in an earlier post. Something to the effect that Allen would be hurt by this situation far more than we know but you weren't at liberty to discuss it. This led me to believe that he had supplied you with some additional evidence in his favor we were not privy to.

All in all Jim, and I don't think anyone here will disagree with me, you seem to have blinders on and are adhering to a hypothesis that since you disagreed with some of his actions, he must not be telling the truth. My only point was that, given all my past exposure to your opinions and input on other threads, I find this surprising.

If you do have any additional info from your direct interaction with the players in this thread, i am sure we would all like to hear it.

If not, I think this thread is at an impasse.

 

[Junkyard]

Jim I do have one question for you. How should Bryon have done ALL of this?

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Jim I do have one question for you. How should Bryon have done ALL of this?

Truly excellent question.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Suncoast:

....All in all Jim, and I don't think anyone here will disagree with me, you seem to have blinders on and are adhering to a hypothesis that since you disagreed with some of his actions, he must not be telling the truth. My only point was that, given all my past exposure to your opinions and input on other threads, I find this surprising.

I quoted the above part of your text. I have usually enjoyed your posts as well, but am disappointed to see you fall into the "assumption game", and in essance wearing the blinders that you have assigned to me. I just found a dozen of my posts that refer to Allen or his business in a negative way, and I didn't finish looking at more than 1/3rd of them. They are there. I will not find them for you, but would suggest you look before you say they are not.

You conclude that since I have not made posts challenging Allen's statements, that I therefore take them verbatim, or at least with less salt than Bryon's. Sorry, guess I should have changed my focus to what everyone else was doing ! No dice. There are more than enough people here to question Allen. I am glad that you wished I had helped though!

I did not just disagree with actions. It was not just a matter of choosing among possible options. It was deciding on options that in my view go right to the heart of character and integrity. IMO, he not only chose some courses of action that may or may not have been judged to be the best way from "point A to point B", he chose actions that included deception, betrayal, etc. You seem so hung up on my value system, while I could frankly care less about yours! No disrespect intended, and I do not mean to demean your values. I do not question them is all.

As to your interpretaton about "a grain of salt". Yu are welcome to yours, but I did not grow up learning from wherever you learned. But here's some guidnce, from The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Idioms section, the only definition they list :

To “take something with a grain of salt” is to view a statement with a skeptical attitude. “She took the claim that he didn’t want to be president with a grain of salt.”

By the way, I used the word "skeptical" many times as well, and they are interchangeable according to the book writers. You can look up the definition of "lying" on your own.

If someone practices ethics which I do not accept as ethical, I consider them unethical. If someone has been less than honorable in a situation, I put very little credence in all their actions relative to that situation. If their actions cause me to question their integrity, I will. Its not hypothetical. Its what I believe about conduct. It is one of my long-held value judgements. You are most welcome to yours. If mine keeps bothering you, I suggest an aspirin. Yours do not bother me, even though they vary from mine.

By both of these statements, my interpretation is that since you vehemently disagreed with Bryons methods and actions after he quit in contacting other individuals that Allen had done business with and telling them of the situation and blindsiding Allen (btw...I think both actions were wrong too) you are completely discounting his assessment of the situation at Allen's and lending little or no credence to his staements or evidence.

Check Post #202. Its not quite as you state it. Even so, and as noted higher above, I have many statements which gave credence to Bryon's allegations in every corner of this thread. Since you make the charge, how about backing up your words with evidence that I "completely discounted his assessment of the situation at Allen's". Or is that asking too much?

We agree here:

Bryons methods and actions after he quit in contacting other individuals that Allen had done business with and telling them of the situation and blindsiding Allen (btw...I think both actions were wrong too)

But is it so hard to accept that they cross a line for me beyond what they cross for you? When I weigh in the clear deception of the email exchange from last Friday night, the cumulative effect of the three actions has made it an integrity issue. It has become "a grain of salt" ! I wish you well.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Michael,
My answer is that he should have done some things differently.

How do you think he should have done it all? Did you and he chat about this last week, or earlier than that? Did you advise him to take all these actions, including the one's John and I disagree with?

 

[Junkyard]

Michael,
My answer is that he should have done some things differently.

How do you think he should have done it all? Did you and he chat about this last week, or earlier than that? Did you advise him to take all these actions, including the one's John and I disagree with?

Returning the questions without really answering the ones asked you, that has been pretty typical of you lately, Jim. I asked you that question since you have become such an expert on his wrong doings. You asked three questions, I will answer them, unlike you.

1) Bryon could have told Allen he will expose him first, than come here.
2) Yes we did chat, I did approve of Bryon exposing Allen, the only suggestion I offered was to make sure Bryon had proof.
3) All the actions? Just the one I stated.

 

[Junkyard]

One more thing to add here. Bryon may have gone to others for advice, I don't know, but in reality that is all it is. Advice. Bryon was the only one able to make the decision to start this thread. Why do you have such a hard time with that, Jim?

 

[Chameleon Company]

Thank you Michael. I gave the short answer because I have provided plenty of answers, few of which I felt an obligation to answer, and most that I did because I either respected the question, or the one who was asking, or both. Sorry if you think I had an obligation to give everyone better answers, but I will choose what I do answer, and like many, have had questions gone unanswered. C'est la vie, n'est pas?

I cannot chart the course for Bryon, as that is /was for him. Some of this I have no way of knowing the actual status of in the situation Bryon was in, as we have opposing accounts. But I would expect any son of mine, if in the same situation:

1) To be sure that the boss understood that he found the husbandry unnaceptable.

2) If it bothered him enough to where he didn't want to stay there, to give notice of quitting within the terms of employment, two weeks, or less if he wanted it and the boss said OK. Let the boss know that the primary reason for leaving was the husbandry, as well as other concerns that may be a factor.

3) Approach the animal control folks while he still worked there. See what they could do or recommend. They may also be able to provide him with info about the legalities of taking pictures etc without spending $50 on an attorney.

4) If he still had no legal answer about the pictures, and I wanted to take them, ask an attorney. Dittos for wanting to take customer lists etc. Follow that advice, yea or nay.

5) Besides having given notice, leave when its agreed upon.

7) If he had need of further things from Allen for whatever reason, state the reason. Do not trick or deceive him into giving up things that are intended to be used against him. Get them legally and honorably, or not at all. Avoid the appearance of deception like the plague.

8) Think a few days on the BOI. If he wanted to spend time getting it all together, fine. But give the actual decision at least a few days time. Its his choice.

9) Do not go out of his way to contact Allen's current friends and customers, either about his disagreements, experiences, or any eventual BOI post. The disadvantages of this move far outweigh the advantages. He is about to burn some bridges. The idea is to get done what he needs to do while keeping it to a minimum. This is a very serious issue, as he may be burning bridges both in front of and behind himself.

I have excluded the need to be sure Allen knew he would be "outed".

BTW, I have been in far more serious situations of "outing" illegal or unethical activities. Dead center. This list, and my ethics in such, are not hindsight. I will only explain to those who ever visit my property, with a six-pack in tow. If anyone has any questions about this, needs further explanations, etc ..... tough !! Comment all you want, but my keyboard is out of ink on this question by Michael.