Allen Belcher / Big Daddy's Wholesale ... WARNING

[BryonsBoas]

Jim
It doesn't matter who I ask advice of . I can take it or leave it. The actions I've done here are my own. Going on a head hunt after the folks I did talk to is useless.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Missed this question from Mike:

One more thing to add here. Bryon may have gone to others for advice, I don't know, but in reality that is all it is. Advice. Bryon was the only one able to make the decision to start this thread. Why do you have such a hard time with that, Jim?

There's two ways to view your question, and two answers, as the objective word "that" follows two scenarios, Bryon seeking advice, and the ultimate decision being Bryon's. I don't have a problem with Bryon seeking advice. If he had gotten and taken bad advice, I would chastise Bryon. If someone gave bad advice, and did not own up to it, I would not smile at them. I have no problem with the notion that the responsibility is ultimately all Bryon's. Couldn't agree more.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Bryon,
You and I have ended up at opposing poles in this event. Even Allen is not camped in this neck of the woods. While I took initial issues directly with you in the thread, I believe they were rather civil. It seemed to gain momentum with the inflammations of others, where my exchanges with them pushed me into an ever expanding antagonistic role. Its OK, I went voluntarily. But it did transpire in a way differently than if it had been you and I on the phone, IMO.
My care about you is pretty much centered on what has transpired in the last week, or roughly the time frame that you were aiming for the BOI as a likely destination. There are differing accounts of events between your version and Allen's, such as whether he understood the passion of your concern to the extent that you say he did, characterized by your claim that he knew you would "out" him, etc. There is no point in trying to convince me of those things any more than I will put weight in Allen's claim ...its" he said, she said" as pointed out by a few. And it has very little material weight to me, as it can't be known without documented proof.
I have taken exception to some of your actions, which I have made very clear. As I have often referenced, my post # 202 outlines them. Some of your actions I think were not the best choices. Some of them I think were bad choices. Some of them I think were reflective of poor judgement, and less than honorable to the extent that they impacted my view of your integrity in this matter.
As I said, my take on you is only narrowed to this past week or so. I really have no thoughts concerning whether you must be prone to deceptive actions, poor judgements, bad choices, etc, as I would define them, in the course of living your life. A unique situation came to a head for you this past week. Lots of emotion, anquish, pressure, nervousness (I assume), etc. In hindsight, regarding this past week, I believe you have confided that you may have done some things differently, were "new at this", etc.
I am not asking or hoping for a long explanation. Maybe even a "yes or no" will suffice. Looking back on it all, and knowing of my disapproval on the post #202 issues, assume you are back to two weeks ago. With the value of hindsight, would you choose to do things in such a way so as to deflate or eliminate some or all of those six issues I raised on #202, especially those that I have indicated seemed to me a "betrayal of trust"? Please note that being here on the BOI was not one of those issues in 202. If "yes" or "no", I will not ask for an explanation, or challenge your answer, even if you provide added explanation. If you ask me a question, I can't guarantee I will answer, especially if I believe it may just get all the fur flying again.
I've been real hard on you. Made a reasonable effort to rake you over the coals. Forgive me, for I feel no need to apologize, and at best will only say with all sincerity that I hope things get better for you. My wish is that you are OK, and that a next job is there for you now or very soon.

 

[Laura Fopiano]

Betrayal of trust

I keep hearing that over and over again, and the real betrayal of trust here lies between the animals and the keeper......Now just go there with me for a second Jim....we've both worked with chameleon's, is it not a trust/ trust issue when a wild caught chameleon takes a cricket from your finger's for the first time.........or how about you bearded folks....you call your animals name and they run across the cage to grab that tasty hibiscus flower from your finger's again trust/ trust.......

You see the way I view this, is that the real betrayal was and is to those animals. They relied on humans to care for them and their owner and keeper Allen let them down.....Bryon saw this betrayal and spoke out for those who do not have a voice......and guess what....we have voices too, and people are listening and using theirs as well.

Bryon may be new to this, may have taken advice from other's, gathered the evidence he found and did the best that he could with what he had to work with........I take great pride in my friend and am happy to admit that I was one of those people. But betrayal no......

It becomes a win/win situation when shady business is exposed. Be it wild caught, captive hatched, or captive born and bred, all of those animals deserve the dignity and respect that Bryon is trying to protect. Human beings can protect themselves, hire lawyer's and harm other's. If not Bryon, then who will give those animals a voice?

 

[Chameleon Company]

Laura,
I doubt anyone will argue that we all have an obligation to those things that we accept responsibility for. Plant lovers might suggest we've betrayed a plant's trust by not watering it, and if that meets their definitions, who am I to argue? Some of us feel that there was a "real" betrayal here, and do not need to qualify it by specifying that it was of the human type.

 

[norsmis]

Laura,
I doubt anyone will argue that we all have an obligation to those things that we accept responsibility for. Plant lovers might suggest we've betrayed a plant's trust by not watering it, and if that meets their definitions, who am I to argue? Some of us feel that there was a "real" betrayal here, and do not need to qualify it by specifying that it was of the human type.

And this is where my problem lies with both parties involved, Bryon and Allen. TRUST! I have said this before in this thread and still say it now; Those animals deserve better treatment! Period! BUT! In any type of business, whether dealing with animals or nuts and bolts, and in life in general, trust is a very important aspect. I believe Allen is dead wrong for the condition those animals were/are/will be living in. Bryon is just as wrong for his deceptions and dealing with this entire situation the way he did and this is why: TRUST!!!!!!!! I wouldn't trust either party because of the appeared deceptions on both sides. Turning Allen in to animal control or what ever agency I could have understood but to contact business associates and friends was WAY wrong. This was not Bryon's right or job as I see it.
At this point in this thread I am sure of one thing and one thing only; I would not conduct business with either party because of lack of trust......

 

[Chameleon Company]

Laura, I missed your question:

Early in your last post, you asked me to "go with you" on your conjecture, and at the end asked this:

If not Bryon, then who will give those animals a voice?

Consistent with Post 202 where I outline some of what I feel was the human-type betrayal, and Post 300, on alternative choices and methods available, here's your answer: Bryon could likely have given the animals an even better voice than he did by following some of the options he had but chose not to do (listed in 300), or didn't see because there may have been other motivations at work besides the voices of the critters. It is very easy for me to see that he could have avoided the more blatant examples of betrayal mentioned in Post 202, if not all. BTW, while the "voice of the animals" is certainly a motive, my view of his actions require additional motives to explain, and IMO, for some things, there is no excuse.

 

[The BoidSmith]

There’s only one individual that a person gets to live with all his life, and guess who that is? We have to be loyal to what we believe to be right. It doesn’t matter how much it will affect us if we decide a change is necessary. It doesn’t matter if a paycheck is associated with it as no one should be able to buy our peace of mind. In my opinion Bryon did what his conscience told him was right at that point in time. He acted without any conflict of interest influencing his ultimate choice (e.g. "a paycheck"). Regrettably, when taking these decisions we don’t have a council of individuals to guide us through. Although we may be lucky enough to rely on some friends that can give us their opinions, the ultimate decision is always ours. We will have to live with that decision so we better trust the person who took it, which will ultimately and invariably be ourselves.

Regards

 

[Chameleon Company]

Well said Dan:

......Regrettably, when taking these decisions we don’t have a council of individuals to guide us through. Although we may be lucky enough to rely on some friends that can give us their opinions, the ultimate decision is always ours. We will have to live with that decision so we better trust the person who took it, which will ultimately and invariably be ourselves.

And on those occasions when we do make choices which cause us pause afterwards, that in hindsight we realize we could have done differently and better, we then incur two obligations. One is to fix what we can that has caused us pause. The other is to not repeat it, lest the self-betrayal continue. Some are able to accomplish both, some neither.

 

[Junkyard]

Jim, I will say thank you for finally answering some questions. You have shed more light into why you are hammering Bryon the way that you are. It is your post #300 and #302 that many of us have been waiting for, through all of this we are now able to understand where you are coming from.

I see this going along the lines of priorities that I had posted about earlier, it is evident that some of your priorities are business ethics, Bryon's actions here were against those priorities of yours, thus you have acted the way you have.

As far as "Trust" now being discussed, did Bryon break that bond with Allen? Yes. Bryon has the right to keep and break the trust of anyone he chooses to, he does not have to trust me and I will not hold that against him. If he does trust me, then our friendship is worth more. I, like many others, have friends I cannot trust on particular issues, but I will do all I can so others will be able to trust me. The way I see life, if a person does not trust me, they will know I will always keep my promises. Trust is something earned, not given freely by me.

Jim, I do have one more question for you, it is one you do not need to answer, but I ask that you will consider it. What are your thoughts about Allen? You have expounded so much on Bryon and the issues you have with him, though very little on Allen, much of what you have posted on Allen has been intermixed in small amounts in posts on Bryon.

Again, thank you for the enlightenment.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Hey Mike,

In my view, Allen's wrongs are pretty simple, and one common to many who focus too much on a quicker buck in this business: Take better care of your animals. Minimize customer dissatisfaction. Whether that means more employees, and/or rearranging of priorities, or some downsizing, get it done. For those of us exclusively in this business, the competitive marketplace has some great built-in pressures which are quite objective in their application. While quite broad, it also includes the BOI and other means of communication, although once here, it can become quite subjective.

Couple of notes on your other words:

...it is evident that some of your priorities are business

I have business priorities, but all of 202 is about respect for trust, and does not change whether it be a business relationship, marriage, or other partnership, etc. Its a bond between two or more people who have certain expectations of fair-play. It can be no more than giving someone your word in a one-time agreement. We have often been in relationships where disagreement is expected, and have been told by the other side of the relationship that it is OK to disagree, just "do it to my face, not from my back". The rules may often be unwritten, but most of us know when we've been betrayed. Excuse the digression, but as the Supreme Court Justice (Blackman, I think) said about the definition of pornography "can't define it, but I know it when I see it".

I agree here:

Bryon has the right to keep and break the trust of anyone he chooses to

Certainly. But having a right does not make doing it "right" in the eyes of others, and I am sure we agree on that as well.

Bryon has mentioned in quite a few posts that "while he had personal issues with Allen beyond the husbandry of the animals, he kept them out of this event". Allen acknowledges them as well, but has a different take on how they can be claimed to have been "kept out of the event"! Got me kind of perplexed at Bryon's claim as well! Allen had reprimanded Bryon for several things, and then moved on ... its there in the print, and not disputed by Bryon. Bryon does dispute that he deserved them though ! Deserved or not, the existence of some level of bitterness not related to husbandry is confirmed by Bryon. Could it have influenced some of the things Bryon "didn't do right" in this event! Nah .... perish the thought! I mean there's no evidence of activities inconsistent with ..... ummmm .... Ding ding ding ding .........

 

[Griz]

Here's the one and only question that needs answered right now:

1) How does continuing this thread benefit the Herp community or the BOI?

Furthering this debate is nothing more then an effort in futility. Every person has spoken their side and it needs to be left alone. This banter, that we all have participated in, is the exact reason why some people look at the BOI with "a grain of salt." And IT IS the reason why threads lose their meaning and effectiveness.

We've established that Bryon could have done things differently.

We've established that Allen has poor husbandry skills.

We've established that Jim is not going to be in agreement with everything said.

We've established that all of us can easily be led off the cliff like lemmings.

Now, why don't we all establish that we have the ability to use common sense and know when to quit?

Griz

 

[Chameleon Company]

Ditto's Griz !

Some of the more respected members have had the continuing urge to ask questions that they wanted answered, and many more have expressed complaints when they don't get one Its a big pasture here on my side, but most all the grass-chewers seem to be on the other. I hope that the question-asking will die a merciful death. If one reads back into this thread, I believe every answer is already there several times over, to include "who shot J.R."

 

[Griz]

Some of the more respected members have had the continuing urge to ask questions that they wanted answered,

I think that in order to keep those that are respected, well......respected, then it must die. So let it start here.

Griz

 

[hhmoore]

against my better judgement

I am going to step in for a moment. Yup - I've read the whole thread as it transpired (though admittedly, my eyes glazed over a few times and I merely skimmed a few of the posts). If you ignore everything but the photos, it is easy to say OMG! That is disgusting. Those animals are being kept in deplorable conditions.. And I'm not offering any defense for some of those shots. But at the same time, I am familiar with most of the species shown & some of the pics seem a bit off. Take the photo of the blood python: minimal amt of substrate, and what is there is clumped & discolored. Frankly, it looks as if someone took the bin, dumped it, put the snake back in and took the photo. There is a similar shot of a ball python. Am I saying that this is what transpired? NO. But my familiarity with bloods and cleaning their cages certainly says it is possible.
I am not particularly trying to cast doubt on what Bryon has said, nor am I in any way saying that Allen was represented unfairly...but I don't necessarily accept everything Bryon has said at face value, either.
I did some cleaning today. I was, in fact, tempted to post a few photos of the process, just for comparison. (I didn't for fear of what you would all say about me, lol). I found a snake sitting in a shoebox - feces smeared on the sides, the paper towel was wet, dirty, shredded and clumped, the snake sitting across the water bowl. the box stunk of urine. Deplorable. Disgusting. Did I hear someone say "EEEWW!!"? Oh, wait a second, that was me when I saw it. That box was clean when I went to bed just before noon yesterday. I dumped out one of the blood python bins, and guess what? Yup, about 1/4 - 1/3 the substrate stuck...and as far as I could tell, there was no urine or feces in there. Heck, you know what else...as long as I am admitting to all this, I even dropped some feces & dirty paper on the floor while I was cleaning.
Again, I'm not saying Bryon's photo layout was not everything that he described...but why is everybody automatically so sure it was?

 

[Griz]

I am going to step in for a moment. Yup - I've read the whole thread as it transpired (though admittedly, my eyes glazed over a few times and I merely skimmed a few of the posts). If you ignore everything but the photos, it is easy to say OMG! That is disgusting. Those animals are being kept in deplorable conditions.. And I'm not offering any defense for some of those shots. But at the same time, I am familiar with most of the species shown & some of the pics seem a bit off. Take the photo of the blood python: minimal amt of substrate, and what is there is clumped & discolored. Frankly, it looks as if someone took the bin, dumped it, put the snake back in and took the photo. There is a similar shot of a ball python. Am I saying that this is what transpired? NO. But my familiarity with bloods and cleaning their cages certainly says it is possible.
I am not particularly trying to cast doubt on what Bryon has said, nor am I in any way saying that Allen was represented unfairly...but I don't necessarily accept everything Bryon has said at face value, either.
I did some cleaning today. I was, in fact, tempted to post a few photos of the process, just for comparison. (I didn't for fear of what you would all say about me, lol). I found a snake sitting in a shoebox - feces smeared on the sides, the paper towel was wet, dirty, shredded and clumped, the snake sitting across the water bowl. the box stunk of urine. Deplorable. Disgusting. Did I hear someone say "EEEWW!!"? Oh, wait a second, that was me when I saw it. That box was clean when I went to bed just before noon yesterday. I dumped out one of the blood python bins, and guess what? Yup, about 1/4 - 1/3 the substrate stuck...and as far as I could tell, there was no urine or feces in there. Heck, you know what else...as long as I am admitting to all this, I even dropped some feces & dirty paper on the floor while I was cleaning.
Again, I'm not saying Bryon's photo layout was not everything that he described...but why is everybody automatically so sure it was?

Been there, discussed that!

 

[BryonsBoas]

Jim

I was begining to think your high horse was stumbling from the weight of an over inflated ego. You talk about all this integrity and character you have to give yourself a stance to bash mine. I've seen little of yours here. We do very much disagree about a number of things but to come here with a holier than thou attitude with I'm sure something going on with Allen to bash , rip , shread , tear , set on fire etc. me , even to declare in all your ego filled wisdom , that was definately a " me , me , me , me personally motivated attack at allen is rediculous . At no time has your integrity or character been so high as to not be questioned or questionable. You have become questionable in quite a few eyes I'm sure. You have stated a few times your somewhat neutral but I know that your leaning .


From: Jim Flaherty
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: Ouch !


OK. We're not going to agree on everything. I have had some side conversations with others in the thread, Sammy and Ron primarily. If I could give advice to Bryon, it would be to always respect trust. He may have owed Allen nothing when he left, but he took more than that. That he could not at least tell Allen, via phone, email, etc, that he quit, and rather chose to maintain the appearance of the employer-employee relationship to solicit information from Allen to use against him is unconscionable in my book. I have the emails. Some of the other things disgust me. All he had to do was tell Allen "I quit", and then he could have come to the BOI with his story. No customer lists ill-gotten. No pictures ill-gotten.
I have some clues about Bryon's personal situation. Don't like hearsay though. Maybe he did act like a "mother hen and her nest", or whatever you said. He did not act like a man. This will cost Allen in the pocketbook, and Bryon seems to have taken some extra steps to insure that. Bryon can get another job ... he did quit voluntarily, and if he didn't have any other job possibilities, silly him. If he's emotionally scarred, then he needs to get a backbone.
Laura, I still hope to meet you someday before we're using walkers and wearing Depends. I think we would agree that we each have tremendous abilities to be monumental assholes. Outside of that, I'm pretty normal. Wishin' you the best ! Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: Jim Flaherty
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: Ouch !


Girl !
I even sparred with the Grand Poobah yesterday over your suspension. Griz took him on much more directly, but I was there too!

Jim, thank you for standing up for me.........I too thought calling someone a Nimrod, then getting suspended, was well excessive to say the least...

Laura, we may share different values here, with regard to Bryon and Allen. Disagreement is OK. Is it not fundamental to the BOI? But to suggest that there's more to my relationship with Allen? If you aren't aware of it, I have addressed that issue several times, been forthright, and in that context, yur words could be taken as an accusation that I am lying ! What are you thinking ???

Sorry Jim, bit I was thinking outloud, the thoughts that most of my friend are thinking, that you possibly have more knowledge of Mr. Belcher than the rest of us are privy to. So it stands to reason that you may have more at stake than you're willing to discuss.

My priorities are such that I find Bryon's actions repugnant. One of his actions that I am OK with is his feeling that this is a BOI issue. I probably said the a half-dozen times! But I am not OK that he blind-sided someone who trusted him with his business assets, paid him, loaned him money, etc. FYI, Allen already sponsors reptile shows. Allen owns a pet store with 7 employees. Allen also has a reptile breeding and distribution business, which is where Bryon helped out, that distributes wholesale to many regional pet stores and vendors. He has long-term customer relationships. I am not OK with Bryon both taking, and also soliciting from Allen, customer lists and information so that he could then email Allen's customers and link them to the thread. (note this subject is touched on by both parties, but only briefly, as it is hugely sensitive ... its there though!)

Bryon is a dear friend of mine, do I think he did the right thing here? Absolutely! Was it well thought out in the planning and timing? No, there's the real crux of the issue, he was acting like a mother protecting his young!! He was reacting to a situation that disturbed him greatly, one that he had little input, nor control over, and one that he has taken quite a beating to on the BOI.. I have no knowledge of other contacts that he may or may not have.

I have the emails from Bryon and Allen, but am keeping them to myself for now, as they may be part of a legal complaint. Bryon's last day of work was Friday, but he didn't have the balls to even tell Allen that he quit. He emails Allen Friday night (I got them) like he's still an employee, and needs access to information about an upcoming show that Allen sponsors with other entities, as he is trying to acquire some animals. Allen sends him the link on Saturday. Bryon has already taken all his "proof pictures" several days before.

Wow, that I was unaware of, but was under the assumption that those pictures were taken on Friday, while he was still employed by Allen, not after and that those photo's were taken at the end of business not during.

Bryon is supposed to come to dinner at Allen's house Saturday night, with the other 7 employees from the store. Bryon no-shows, of course, and that night makes his intentions clear at about 11 PM with the thread-starter. He also has begun to email Allen's otherwise satisfied customers! A couple of them are customers of mine, but I never even heard Allen's name before.

Again, I stand corrected................I know that this industry is very small, and friends know friends, customer's know customer's....

They provided me with some context as well. Again, Bryon admitted some contact already with those customers, right in the thread! Just my opinion Laura, but he's a scumbag ! Allen has already taken a huge hit from this thread. Bryon's word is Mudd too. So I'm supposed to keep the gloves off Bryon? Not me babe !!

The funny thing is Jim, Allen may be taking a hit, but Bryon will be the one who really suffers in this fiasco. Bryon is no scumbag, in fact, he is far from it. And I am not asking you to go easy on Bryon, but there's more going on here then even you might be aware of. Bryon moved heaven and earth to make a go of this, and never really got to show what he is made of because Allen had him doing so many other jobs. Why couldn't Allen have his other employee's set up sewer lines and jumping mats??



BTW, the deal was a dinner ... you and me. If ever the opportunity existed. You can call me all the names you want across the table. I will try to be good company. You pay the bill!

Okay, okay, I deserved that!! I have been and will always be a lady of honor, and no I wouldn't take you to Denny's LOL And I don't usually yell at people during diner, I find it to be extremely rude, and low class. However, I have been known to throw food at people, nothing like insighting a good food fight.............incoming..............smack..............Okay, I'm waving the white flag..........my friends love me and will sometimes say things to honor my friendship, but I assure you, I can handle myself, just choose not to go rounds with you..............TTYS Laura


Jim


Seems your taking quite a bit of Allen at face value. I have only delivered to 5 , yup 5 , customers. I haven't contacted any at any time either. I haven't contacted his supplier or friends . I did contact his partner and Terry Huerring. I already apologozed for that tho. Oh wait , Allen didn't say so it matters not. Be careful of who you let in your bed , might not like what you wake up to. Trust me on that one.

You speak of trust yet you tap dance around certain subjects nicely. That e-mail look familiar? Reads alot like taking Allen at face value to me.


I know the price paid for my integrity and character. What did you get for yous at Belcher's Pawn & Pet?

 

[BryonsBoas]

Met with the investigator today. The ball is rolling . Got a good bit of news today . I'll share soon.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

That was uncalled-for and tasteless. There is really nothing new in the email that wasn’t obvious already. I don’t care how much we agree or disagree on an issue but some professionalism should be kept. Posting emails that are really irrelevant to the topic is just as bad as taking the topic off subject. I think sharing private emails is just as bad. Laura my friend, a little disappointed as well. We are suppose to be the “Good Guys” here.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Bryon,
I believe that Laura was one of several whom you confided in prior to the thread, and whom advised you to come here. I have no problems standing behind everything I said to her in our "private" exchanges. I thank you and Laura for bringing this here, although it does not reflect all of our communications. Unfortunately, you did not properly highlight the communications where it is mixed exchanges between Laura and I, and the public will have to try to decipher. I mentioned earlier that the bringing of this thread was more of a "group" event. Some of that group then posted support of Bryon in the thread, many right after the initial post. While I do not believe that they knew of all of Bryon actions surrounding this, I do not know that either. But as for the "conspiracy theory", I thank Bryon for the additional proof. Enjoy!