Bad Guy Amanda & Mike Webb of The Pet Gecko

[Ed Clark]

I can't wait for that IP check.

Normally I don't speak up on BOIs that don't directly effect me because I'm a little baby newbie in the reptile world and you learn more by listening (in this case reading) than you do by flapping your gums (flailing your fingers). This uh... isn't the case here. I just gotta open my big mouth.

Welcome Elizabeth Grant

 

[AbsoluteApril]

I can't wait for that IP check.

It was done a while ago but nothing posted here to advise, there was no connection.

 

[guruza]

Well i think im done here for a while. I really hope the Webbs post their info soon because im kind of tired of reading the same thing over and over (asking for proof, and then calling them liars). Also a little tired of some of the people asking to have my IP checked simply because I have a different opinion and different values than them. If it helps I havent added anyone to my DO NOT BUY list. People who care about their animals are the best people to deal with. Im not saying the Webbs dont care about their animals, but I believe they are doing their best to run a business and the amount of care some of you think is required is simply not financially possible for a small business.

 

[Snake-Queen]

Well first off we have been upfront and quick with all responses, as shown by the time
Stamps on the responses. Our animals are regularly tested for all parasites including
Crypto. As soon as you mentioned you had a sick gecko we did stains AND PCR test, and every
Single animal we have available for sale was vet checked by a
2nd vet that I do not work at so no chance of foul play could be suspected.
I had a health certificate covering every animal I had for sale in both
Locations and will have one next week as well. On display in full view for all to see.
None of our animals have come back positive and we have had no other issues with any other
Geckos that were sold at that show. As for your testing, we asked that your vet confirm the
Results prior to your vet visit. You still did not get a positive
Confirmation from your vet, and necropsy proved inconclusive
With the other tested tissue samples being clean. Again our stock has no
Symtoms and anybody is welcome to see our stock at any show.
We have had no other reports of any runny feces or signs of crypto from
Any other customers. IF your gecko actually did have crypto then with there being negative results from other parts of body tissue we feel that it would be in the early stages of infection and most likely contracted after your purchase, possibly at the show itself as prevailent as it can be. You mentioned after you got the gecko home how great it was doing even then but it was not until a few days later
When the gecko showed signs of illness. As we mentioned before we would refund the cost of the gecko purchased from us per our policy, even though the vet did not do the requested testing and with
Inconclusive necropsy results. However our stock is healthy and we have our animals vet checked monthly, and anybody purchasing any animal from us is more than welcome to make a photo copy of our current vet health certificate if they want a copy for their records. Any questions or concerns you may call/text/email/ or facebook message us anytime. We keep each gecko individually and have strict
Quaranteen and record keeping procedures as well as VERY strict hand sanitizing protocol at all expos.

Mike Webb,
The Pet Gecko
719-468-8131
[email protected]

Here Mike has said they sent off samples to be tested, so where are the results? This post is dated 2-19-14, more than a month ago. Plenty of time to get results in.

For one, our lives do not revolve around the computer and I did not say all 400 geckos were tested, that would be one of a bill, we took multiple samples from different racks, rooms, etc. And
Ran slides and sent some in, our results have been negative and our animals are healthy
And show no signs of illness. There was and always will be sanitizer on our table at the shows, and flat out the necropsy report shows negative results with the entire remainder of the intact digestional tract. One test collected at home by the buyer showed positive, the owner did NOT have the
Test done by a vet, and the necropsy results with MULTIPLE test and procedures
All came back negative. Its right in the posted result. Now we do agree the facts
Are there, but read em before you get then twisted.

Where are the results?

I want to post some information that pertains to this thread regarding crypto. I am in NO way choosing one side of another, but i think it is important that all parties understand some key facts about crypto

There are precautions that cities take against crypto in the water sources, but is in no shape or form related to the crypto strain that effects reptile. The mammal strain does not transmit to the reptile and vica versa.

Electronmicrosopy is the GOLD standard for testing, but not financially feasible for some one to do on a collection at almost $200 per test. PCR is over 98% accurate and checks for the DNA of crypto in the sample, making it very reliable test. Avian Biotech is one the nations leading PCR labs and recognized by most if not all exotics vets. Acid fast slides are extremely unreliable and have a very large margin for false negatives (meaning the animal is positive, but the test is giving a negative result).

Crypto lives in the small intestine when it comes to geckos, thus a necropsy would not reveal it in any other organ no matter how strong the infection is. It is possible to see other organs affected in other ways by the necropsy, such as fatty liver disease, but you wont physically see the organism.

The most reliable detection protocol is to PCR Test a animal, and do a proper histopath if positive. A protocol with a cure is in the works for publishing now, but that is all i can say at the moment.

It is important we all understand how crypto works to better treat/test/and take care of our animals. Spread good information not fear.

This is a reputable leopard gecko breeder, saying the ABT lab is reputable and the test run is 98% accurate.


Mike Webb made it his business by answering for Amanda. Amanda Webb, allowed Mike to speak for her, therefore his words are hers.

Amanda stated that they had ALL of their geckos tested on 2-3-14, where are the results?

 

[JessKeen]

I think EVERYONE really hopes they post that info soon. But I agree with what has been said that at this point negative results posted by them couldn't be completely trusted. It takes me about 60 seconds to take a picture of a paper and post it on the internet. And on the very slim chance these two don't have smart phones, I guarantee you one of their neighbors or close friends does and they could use that.

I am an extreme noob in the reptile world but as my hubby is considering getting a leopard gecko in the near future (led to me researching, which led to finding this thread), I felt comfortable sharing my opinion. I can guarantee they are losing potential customers because of this issue, because we are one of those lost. They were here for the Repticon in February, and likely will be here again in May. The thought of going home with a sick animal is terrifying, but what is really important to me here is the deplorable customer service. People should NOT treat people in the way that Mike treated Angela. And it's even worse when she was a paying customer of his. I would NEVER do business with someone who I knew had acted in that way.

You don't have to agree with the naysayers, and you don't have to be one of them, but openly defending someone who has behaved in such a cruel and irresponsible way really speaks to the character of the person doing the defending.

 

[laterob]

Mike logged in today. Clearly no sense of urgency from Mikanda to clear their name(s). I just don't get it.

 

[chazzz]

I think its kind of ridiculous how little time you guys are giving him to post any proof. If its not a screenshot it isnt a quick process to post it all. If my proof was on paper and not digital it would take me several days to post anything.

Your first post in this thread and first ever on this forum was on page 22 post #214 as I have quoted above. And since then you have posted 30 more times in this thread.

I actually have ready the entire thread and I only posted what it sounded like you wanted. If I was wrong in my assumption then I apologize. What Iv been trying to say (unsuccessfully obviously) Is that a sick gecko and an outburst dont really deserve a 20+ page bad guy thread. And from reading the thread almost all of the posts are completely about the outburst. If you dont get a refund its obviously because this thread has really upset the seller and posting that you dont expect a refund probably wont help your odds at getting one. Yes, a crypto positive could have costed you thousands, but as far as I know, it has not. Personally if I bought a 60$ gecko and it started looking sick I would not have spent nearly as much as you spent diagnosing/euthanizing it. Is that because I dont care for my reptiles? No. Its because im realistic and would prefer to save that money on the reptiles I have spent years bonding with or costed me alot more. I would also not take a cat off the street and immediately take it to the vet.

I find it rather amusing for someone that believes this doesn't deserve a 20+ page bad guy thread sure has done a fine job making it a 30+ page bad guy thread. And you have been basically saying the same thing over and over again stating your opinion of how you don't think Mike is a bad guy for the way he handled this situation. But in reality all you're doing is throwing gas on the fire and not helping the Webb's at all with your post's at least IMO.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

1) There have been many inconsistencies in the claims of the Webbs. All of their statements made cannot be true and therefore they have posted at least some misleading statements (called lies).

2) I would not trust the word or accuracy of self-reported results from people who try to argue on a matter regarding a protozoan endoparasite and refer to it as a virus (or, for that matter, who do not understand the validity of a particular test method and very blatantly try to misreport an inconclusive confirmatory find as a negative confirmatory find). A redwood tree is closer to a blue whale than Cryptosporidum is to a virus.

3) The exceedingly foul manner in which this (honestly amazingly thorough) customer was addressed by Mike should not be deemed acceptable or excusable for convenience or any other reason.

4) Anyone seeking to ignore 1 through 3 above is extremely suspect and should be considered ill equipped to meaningfully weigh in on either the technical or ethical facets of the matters at hand.

 

[chazzz]

1) There have been many inconsistencies in the claims of the Webbs. All of their statements made cannot be true and therefore they have posted at least some misleading statements (called lies).

2) I would not trust the word or accuracy of self-reported results from people who try to argue on a matter regarding a protozoan endoparasite and refer to it as a virus (or, for that matter, who do not understand the validity of a particular test method and very blatantly try to misreport an inconclusive confirmatory find as a negative confirmatory find). A redwood tree is closer to a blue whale than Cryptosporidum is to a virus.

3) The exceedingly foul manner in which this (honestly amazingly thorough) customer was addressed by Mike should not be deemed acceptable or excusable for convenience or any other reason.

4) Anyone seeking to ignore 1 through 3 above is extremely suspect and should be considered ill equipped to meaningfully weigh in on either the technical or ethical facets of the matters at hand.

Well stated Nick!!

 

[Snake-Queen]

1) There have been many inconsistencies in the claims of the Webbs. All of their statements made cannot be true and therefore they have posted at least some misleading statements (called lies).

2) I would not trust the word or accuracy of self-reported results from people who try to argue on a matter regarding a protozoan endoparasite and refer to it as a virus (or, for that matter, who do not understand the validity of a particular test method and very blatantly try to misreport an inconclusive confirmatory find as a negative confirmatory find). A redwood tree is closer to a blue whale than Cryptosporidium is to a virus.

3) The exceedingly foul manner in which this (honestly amazingly thorough) customer was addressed by Mike should not be deemed acceptable or excusable for convenience or any other reason.

4) Anyone seeking to ignore 1 through 3 above is extremely suspect and should be considered ill equipped to meaningfully weigh in on either the technical or ethical facets of the matters at hand.

One of the best posts of the thread!

 

[laterob]

Mike logged in again today. How are those results coming, Mike?

I know, two days is only a 'couple' and three are 'a few'. He said he'd post in a few days. Odd how he has time to check in every day but no time to post the results he's had since February.

 

[southernserpents28]

Wow, this sure jumped a ton of pages fast! LOL, get a life folks.. Sam, whoever you are dude, thank you for your support and for posting your opinion. Reading the last 10 pages here just really brings out the true colors of some of these people and I appreciate your positive outlook on this. This is gonna be a fairly long post so settle in for a good read everybody, I need to clarify a few things.

First off- Amanda handled this until it hit fauna, and I have taken it from here, her text and messages were hers, and everything on fauna was posted by myself. When she went into our testing info, all she knew is what I told her, and that was the vet has been here, collected the samples and got testing underway. Samples were sent off, and actually I did not find out until recently that what the vet sent off was the ELIZA as well as PCR test. The test code for the lab is T-550 with the lab listed in the report that is attached. My words to her was the vet came by and its all been taken care of, so that covers the confusion of the "all or part" of the gecko thing. Now The vet pulled samples from indiviudals that went to the show, that didn't go to the show, some that I bought, some that I bred, colonies and groups. He picked through and chose which samples to collect and send off based on what he saw. Everything came back negative. In the mean time, yes we did look at individual slides on direct stains. I do have my own scope and equipment as well as working for a vet. I have even posted pics of my creditials there on facebook from time to time. I know the stains are not 100%, but they were free for me, minus slides, coverslips and the 3 bottle set of quick dip stain, and my geckos and all my animals are very important to me, so I did them anyways, not for anybody here, but for myself. As far as how many test were sent off to the lab, exactly I do not know, I gave my vet a $1,000.00 budget and he did the rest, and kept it within what I could afford.

Moving on, Yes, my business used to be Southern Serpents and there is discrepancy on why the name changed. That is simple. I started my reptile business when I was 15 breeding mainly snakes in southwest Texas, since my bout with cancer started in 2012 I wanted to back off of what I was breeding and let my wife amanda's gecko hobby take over. Reason being is if I fall over dead, I wanted her to have a good little business that she could manage, not be stuck with a bunch of large boas and pythons that want to eat your face, also she wanted to be more retail, as I have always leaned towards the wholesale side of the industry. So since I wasn't in the south anymore and wasn't primarily breeding snakes, well it just didn't fit. My old page is still up on facebook, and goes into those details even. And I leave it up so people can see my old pics and see the link for the pet gecko and what we are doing now.. The geckos are mostly Amanda's deal now, and I do just keep the snake projects that make me happy, and just a few of them.

Next,- Am I a "flipper"? If thats what you call it, yes. Just like everybody else, I love to buy, sell, trade, it even says so on my banner. But I do not buy animals then throw them right out on my table, they come home and get checked over fully, eat, drink, sh*t, shed, etc. then they go up for sale. I do buy, sell, and trade, you have to if you are investing a ton in going to shows and you need the variety.

Amanda is one of the smart people that does not get into the "fauna B.S." I should have been smart and done the same, that is why she is not "chiming in" on here. But we are still conducting business as usual, we have healthy animals shipping out to happy customers weekly, still no other reports of sick animals anywhere.

Yes, people have gotten sick animals in the past, it happens to everybody. For a while we were doing a show almost every weekend, we have sold literally thousands of animals and yes, something will get sick sooner or later. And we have always been very good about resolving any issues anybody has ever had unless they just didn't ever contact us, in that case you can't fix it if you don't know about it. Never has there been another report of crypto in any of our animals. Also if you read one of my earlier post I do refer to crypto as a parasite, because that is what it is, so later on when I said "virus" I should have said parasite but I wasn't paying attention and I really didn't see people being that nitpicky, just ridiculous.

Also go ahead and please read all of my other fauna stuff because there are plenty of people that say good things about me on there. Not everything is all horribly bad like people here are claiming.

Going back to crypto- from all the stuff out there on it that I can find every medical document that I can find says it manifest in 2-10 days, some say 3-5 days. Marcia's deal online is the ONLY one that says different and that is who is arguing this with me on here if I am not mistaken. I do understand that it could sit dormant for years, even an animals whole lifespan, but it can also infect and cause problems in a matter of days as well.. Thats what 9 out of 10 documents I can find online mention, but you people can do your own research on that. I am not calling her wrong, I am saying that there is a lot of documentation that says it can infect very quickly.

Yes, this has drug on forever and a lot of people see my priorities being "messed up" in the time it has taken me to get things together and posted, but like I mentioned before I was down almost the whole month of feb. and I am a busy person, I work 2 jobs and have 2 businesses and a family, so fauna boi is not my priority. Yes, Amanda's communcation slacked off in Feb. that was because a good chunk of responsibilty fell on her while I recovered, and then I took it from there with this case. Also my herp vet is semi-retired only does herp stuff for a very few people and just does a little large animal stuff here and there in the field, so getting the lab document from him was a pain in the butt, just like it is with any medical records. His receptionist is the one who blacked out anything that I should not post publically or account numbers etc, that was their personal info.

Below is the lab report, that seems to be the only thing everybody here cares about, so here it is.

Lastly- we have made the decision to offer crypto testing on any of the geckos we have for sale, customers will be allowed to pay a 25.00 deposit per gecko to cover the test, then depending on the cost of the gecko we will either credit the 25.00 towards the gecko, or do a partial discount. That is basically because we are not going to sell 40.00 geckos for $15.00 after the cost of the test. A happy medium will be found depending on the specific deal that the customer and ourselves can be happy with.

Respectfully,
Mike Webb

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

ELISA.

Not "ELIZA"....

 

[southernserpents28]

lab report

lab report attached here.

 

[laterob]

Show the date.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

As far as how many test were sent off to the lab, exactly I do not know, I gave my vet a $1,000.00 budget and he did the rest, and kept it within what I could afford.

How do you not know? Your report should let you know.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

lab report attached here.

You do realize that this is garbage, correct?

It could be two samples and it could be ten or so.

You have shown virtually nothing here.

 

[Lucille]

It also could be simply a blank letterhead with Webb typing in what he wanted us to see. There is no verifying information. Not acceptable evidence.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Yes, I found the logo and number online. Almost anyone can whip up that much nothing.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

I do not know if I will get a response, but I have requested verification of format.

That format would be

- not listing the number of samples tested

- not listing the test method (laboratory technique) performed

- using two sentences, one of which has a misspelling, to report results broadly rather than specifically for the individual samples

If this is all Anntech provides, that would be surprising and disappointing (and largely useless for defense with an undisclosed number of samples).