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An ethics question, Help

This started off as an ethics question. In America that has little to do with legalalties  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

I think the biggest question to this whole deal was (and still is), is this a case of temporary misconduct or a sign of long term neglect.

In reality this is a judgement call on Jeff's part since he was the one to speak to the owner, even though he asked for advice there is little one can determine from a post online second hand.
 
Daniel, you are right, but I welcome any and all opinions.  If you look at the first post, I tried to put forth the story at face value.  I was mad and upset when I found this animal and I didn't want my emotional state to influence the original story.  Now, after getting a little sleep, and then working my shift for today, I've had a little more time to think and I still feel the same way.  I kind of wanted everyone to ask themselves what they would do and give me their thoughts.  In this hobby emotions play a key role, not everyone loves snakes, or wildlife in general and it's our passion that keeps it going and it's going to be our passion that saves a lot of these species for our kids to enjoy.  
Another response to the post earlier about kicking a fellow herper while he's down.  I don't consider someone keeping a reptile in those conditions a herper. I consider them a guy who just happens to have a pet snake.  Yes it's his pet, but still, no substrate, soaking in water and feces for who knows how long, not to mention the temps.  I wouldn't want to call someone like that a herper and associate them with the rest of us.  He may be a good guy, I don't know.  If I take it all at face value, he might be ok.  Yes she is in good shape, he says he's had her for 5 years, he also said she ate a few weeks ago so she should be ok.  What's a few weeks? The month he has had this storage unit?  She could have been in there the whole time.  I have no idea of what the truth might be.  She could be stolen for all I know, he was pretty eager to sell her, I never said anything about selling her until he brought it up.
That's why I posted on here.  I respect the opinions of probably 99% of you guys on here, I may not always agree, but I do respect.  
The main thing is, If I take care of her and send her back and she is in those conditions.  I might as well have taken her to the shelter and have her end up euthanized.  Or have someone who knows nothing about them kill her. There's the dilemma.
 
Jeff,

After thinking on this some more I have thought of this.

I would take care of the snake and feed it. I would keep track of all your expenses for takeing care of it. When and if this person comes to get the snake charge him for your expenses. If he realy loves and wants the snake he will gladly pay you your expenses. If he doesn't want to pay for the expenses then he realy doesn't want the snake. You are at least entitled to cover your expenses for careing for the snake.
Or you could make him an offer for the snake.
The above are just my opinions for whatever their worth.

Thanks,
Scott Cook
 
Cindy...
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">lori, i knew that you understood where we were coming from</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

Reptile rescue & rehab does have it's moments though hehe. Speaking of.. Gotta run out atm. I'll post later in regards to other things that have been stated here as well.
 
Scott,
I thought about doing that.  Maybe charging any and all expenses and possibly deducting that from the price and then buying her from him.  Maybe I should charge a boarding fee as well, like a kennel.  Actually, one of the pet stores here pet sits for something like 4$ a day plus expenses.  Maybe I should try that.  Should I charge for electricity for heating? Just kidding.

 Like I said I respect most everybody's opinion.  It's a tough call, I guess it always is, balancing the welfare of the animal with the rights of the owner.  I wonder if this is the kind of thing the animal control officers go through.
 
Once he gets on his feet,i would ask him to reimburse you for the expenses that you have incurred and your time also.
Make it a reasonable fee, have him pay it, and then give him the snake back.

If he is in a position to pay, but doesnt want to, then I would TELL him that you are keeping the snake and that the value of the snake pays for the amount of money you put out on takeing care of it.

Give him time to be able to reimburse you and dont soak him.


Giving thissnake back to its long term owner is the rightfull thing to do, but if he isnt willing to cover the upkeep and maintenance of it for those many months, than he may not really want it.

Fred albury
Aztec Reptiles
 
Fred, I think that's pretty much how it's going to go.  The money not being the issue though.  In my earlier post when I said something about my time and money and all, I meant I didn't want to waste it.  I would feel it would be a waste of it all if she goes back and doesn't survive.  I want to repeat, this is not about me getting a free snake, it's about her survival.  I know if she stays with me, or I adopt her out to one of the other herpers I know, that she will survive and have a better quality of life.  We aren't going anywhere, and we sure as hell aren't going to be living in some motel and keeping herps in storage.  I, and the other herpers I know, have arrangements for our animals should anything happen to us, or if we fall into a situation where we can't care for them for any length of time.  I guess we'll see what happens, she's settling down quite nicely, and the more I look at her the prettier she gets.  In addition to charging for her care, I'll probably do like many other rescuers do and determine if the home is a proper environment for her.  Maybe a home visit to check everything out, and make him do an adoption contract as well.  What does everyone think?
 
Jeff,

My rersponse seems to have fired you up. You asked about an ethical issue. I replied in like kind, and also added some legal concerns. These two types of issues: Legal and ethical are pretty much hand in hand in our society. In general terms (not referring to you in particular when I say you but to the general poipulation):  If you choose not to do things legally, then in my mind at least, you have not done them ethically. If you believe the law to be unethical then work to have it changed.

As for the real world, I think you did pretty good so far; however if the guy wants that snake back - then you are ethically bound to return it no matter what your emotions say to you otherwise. Unless of course you determine that he is a irrespoinsible snake keeper. Then you should ethically and lgally speaking call the authorities. I doubt the snake would wind up dead as you believe, I think that is emotion talking.
Now as for what I would have done - I possibly would never have contacted the guy in the first place, and just kept the snake. Or if I had gotten in touch with him, maybe I would have given him a good a-- chewing (or kicking), or maybe I would have been nice and understanding. One thing is for sure, if he tried to get $250 out of me I would have likely told him to look for the $250 somewhere where the sun does not shine. Then I would have kept the snake and kept a running total of the bill for its upkeep both for supplies, and my labor. When and if he returned to get the snake, he would have to pay the bill first. I kind of think you may do that too....... I kind of think he may let you keep that snake. Good luck
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In this hobby emotions play a key role, not everyone loves snakes, or wildlife in general and it's our passion that keeps it going and it's going to be our passion that saves a lot of these species for our kids to enjoy.  </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

  WELL SAID !
If those of us who are currently keeping don't give a d@mn now for the health and welfare of these gorgeous creatures which we keep..Not only who would, but also...our children would be looking at pics of what used to be rather than learning from those of us who do keep and are teaching / exposing them to learn to love the "hobby" and the species we keep presently to the degree that we do. Why shouldn't our kids be given the oppurtunity to enjoy what we enjoy also ? I know my kids already enjoy my passion for the species  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> I have 7 kids here and EVERY one of them is an avid herper. Here's one of my pages with pics of them...kids with herps [ page is loaded with pics so takes awhile to load UGH] Some of my kids even work with reptile rehabs also...got two that can even do mics also..and their only 10 years old hehe.

cnj...
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I, and the other herpers I know, have arrangements for our animals should anything happen to us, or if we fall into a situation where we can't care for them for any length of time. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

That's what part of being a RESPONSIBLE herper and placing the reptile's needs at the forefront is all about. Even with the "lil' collection I keep myself.. I have always had such in place, ya never know if you'll need a "temporary" home for your herps...Sh!t happens ya know...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In addition to charging for her care, I'll probably do like many other rescuers do and determine if the home is a proper environment for her.  Maybe a home visit to check everything out, and make him do an adoption contract as well.  What does everyone think?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

It's not so much as checking out the home, but rather checking out the knowledge of the person in the area of the reptiles needs and making sure that they can properly provide what is needed for such. Allthough some of the rescues do a home visit as part of their approval process.
In regards to an adoption contract...You might be crossing a fine line there with this situation possibly. After all the snake in question was/is owned by the guy you would be dealing with in that. That's up to you though to decide. Keep in mind that in regards to adoption apps, quite a lot of people have a real hatred when it comes to filling them out and not only couldn't be bothered but also will "voice" their opinion of such as well. Personally, I feel if someone doesn't have the time to fill out an app..then they just don't have the time it takes to properly care for the reptile and I move on to the next person is all when it comes to placing a reptile into a new home. On the apps/contracts just make sure that you do NOT ask for personal info that would have no relative basing in relation to the adoption / care of the reptile is all. remember..It really doesn't matter just what a person does for a living when it comes to being able to properly care for a reptile basically. that seems to be one of the main"issues" that people have with certain apps in reptile adoptions. If ya need a form..ya can grab mine and alter/change anything you need to and utilize it yourself even. It is on this page here.
 
Lori,

I know that some motels allow pets. Motel 6 is one of them - they follow guidelines set by the Humane Society of the US (yuchhhhhhhh - I may have to stop staying there). They allow one small pet per room - that is it by their corporate rules. I have a nice picture along these lines. I am just to lazy to put the pic into myb AOL FTP space right now, but will email it to you if you want to see it.  Most motels do not allow snakes or other herps even if they allow pets. Some local owners or managers will let you in with them, but most corporate rules are against it. I have checked with a lot of hotel chains over the years about this, they are none too herp friendly for the most part. As far as the maids go, shame on them if they open up things they have no business opening.

Best regards,

Glenn
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">they are none too herp friendly for the most part.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Isn't that about the case with just about anyone who doesn't keep herps even ..UGH.  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('>

Sure..the email is [email protected]

Yeah, most likely the case that the mgmt./specific motel doesn't have the problem and the corporate rules are against such. BUT hey, long as I let em know, then I have covered myself...hehe. A lot of the motels we stay at along our route are the Travel Lodge ones basically. The others are like the 1 motel not a chain of them though. We also try to stay at another herper or reptile rescue person's home much as possible anyway. We have herper friends all the way down the eastern coastside which helps out major when we are out anyway. That even makes it easier as if we need to take care of a health issue while on the road with a reptile, they usually have anything on hand that we may have not brought enough of with us or just forgot to bring even. Always helps to have another set of hands also when dealing with a HUGE NASTY like a f/g burm with a tude hehe. Least Ritchie's HUGE burm wasn't nasty when we transported her for him at all..lol.
 
If you plan on charging this kid anything for taking care of the snake you should make sure he knows that and agrees to it up front.  To me it wouldn't be right to keep the snake for a month or two and then when he comes to pick it up you tell him he owes you <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> bucks for taking care of it.  If he doesn't agree to it you have to decide if you want to keep it and care for it for free or give it back to him now.  

As much I don't like the way he left the snake, it is still his property.  I don't know how the laws work regarding animal abandonment, but if he had an active contract with the storage company you did remove his property from a legaly rented facility.  I understand that there are regulations against keeping live animals in such units but the first course of action should have been to contact the renter of the unit and tell him to remove the snake,  not to call someone else and have them take it home.

If you are going to use the argument that he abandoned the snake, or mistreated it (potentially by leaving it in an improper facility) then I think you have to report the incident to the proper authorities.  If you don't want to get the law involved,  you have no right to keep an animal that you took possesion of based on a possible violation.

Steve Schindler
 
just to clear some things up from steve's post.

the guy was notified that his storage room was unlocked and the snake had been found. luke, jeff's brother, immediately tried to contact him in regards to the problem but could not get in touch with him right away.

jeff not only spoke to the guy on the phone but met him as well. jeff was finally able to get in touch with him and he came up to the office. he thanked jeff for cleaning the snake as well as her cage and agreed that jeff should take her home because he can not care for her in his current situation.

yes, the snake was removed from a rented storage room. but, having worked for this company myself, i can say that it is company policy that if you are in violation of your contract in any way, the company has the right to overlock your room, take posession of any belongings in the room, and void your contract. he was in violation on two aspects, one, he had no lock on the storage room and two, he had a live animal in his room. now luke didn't void his contract and make him move out or overlock the room. they removed an animal who was soaking in filthy water in extreme heat. i don't see what is wrong with that. would you have let the animal suffer to obey the rules?

luke called jeff to come help him out because it was a 6 foot boa in an unsecured cage. he couldn't risk having her getting loose on his property. not only is the storage facility his place of business, it is his home.

try to look at it this way... you are an average joe who doesn't particularly like snakes. you're in the middle of having a crappy day after just having it out with your boss so you decide to walk your property to calm down. you open an unlocked storage room and find a 6 foot snake staring you in the face. your brother owns snakes. a lot of snakes. he deals with them on a daily basis. who do you call to help you deal with the snake? the same cops who took 12 hours to respond to a burglary call 3 months ago, or your brother whom you know will be there within 30 minutes? personally, i would have done the same thing luke did.

and yes, in virginia, they euthenise snakes. they euthenise something like half of all abandoned animals taken in. and no, the virginia lawmakers aren't big on herpers. new laws are making it harder for herpers all the time. and yes, jeff and i are taking action to help change laws by writing to our congressmen, etc.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and yes, in virginia, they euthenise snakes. they euthenise something like half of all abandoned animals taken in</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

OH I will vouch for that one !
I have an IGGY pick up in VA this week coming up. The person who owns it was told that if it was dropped at the shelter..it would be euthanized. This is not the first time for such either. The owner contacted rescues in the area of VA already and noone has any room for yet another Iggy that deals with them even and does rescue with Iggy's. I already have this one placed into a new home even..site unseen.
Back in December we also had an African Rock Python that if it was taken to a shelter.. was an automatic euthanization , just based on the fact that it is a snake. With a ton 'o' "scurrying" a group of us rescuers managed to get the snake and prevent such from happening to it.
 
Glenn,
I think I'm just a little fired up anyway. <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
I did have a few words with the guy on the phone before he came up.  
On some of the other posts. I was actually in the process of talking with a lady about what I would do with the snake, charging fees, vet costs, and etc. when the owner walked up.  He joined the conversation at that point so he should have a clue. My brother contacted him before I got there and the guy told him he would be up there later that afternoon.  This was around 12pm, he was planning on coming up around 4 or 5 that day.  I called him again and told him either to come up and talk to me or I was calling the authorities and that his storage contract was going to be voided per company policy, as stated to me by a company representative.  It took about 2 hours from initial contact for him to show up.
As for the motel thing, it's a seedy little motel where the managers live on site and can see every room from their office/apartment.  He would have a hard time sneaking anything in the room.  Especially any kind of caging for something this big.  I don't think he would be able to do it.
The only thing you can "sneak" in there is a prostitute and they kind of depend on that to rent their rooms.  This guy has no job, no car, and no way to even get food for her unless he's going to start getting her to eat stray cats.  There is a serious lack of pet stores in the city, and none on the bus line for him to go to.
Lori,
you ever need any help in Va moving something, or can't get anyone to go get an animal, let me know, I'll be glad to help or take something in.  And for any future events in that area, for the record, I do not sell rescues or adoptions.  Any animal I am given, take in, or adopt from someone else stays here, with me, or a friend of mine who doesn't sell anything.  In addition, if the Marini's can use it for their educational programs I may loan it out to them, but it would come back here.  So don't forget me Lori, if you get something down this way that needs a home or you need the help.
 
Cindy,

I appologize if my post made it sound like I thought you did anything wrong.    You and Jeff did what I probably would have done in the same situation.  

The only reason I posted, was to let you know that in some of these instances you have to be very careful how you tread.  The guy was notified, and he was present before you took the animal home and he agreed to that.  That is fine, but unless some reimbursmnet of fees were specifically agreed upon I think it would be wrong to spring a surprise fee on him.  You have the right to be reimbursed, and he should be expecting to have to do just that.  It may be a little presumptuous to assume that he will feel the same way however, and I don't think it is enough that he joined the conversation while you were talking about it (from Jeffs post).  This is something that needs to be stated to up front, and in writting if you want to be safe.  Otherwise, don't be surprised if you end up with problems later on.

I hope everything works out for you with this.  I know that everything you did was in the best interest of the snake which in this case is the most important thing.  The thought of reimbursement probably never entered your mind initially.  I would just hate to see things turn ugly over things that could be avoided.

Steve Schindler
 
steve, i am sorry that my reply was a little "off" earlier. i didn't mean to come across the way that i did. we certainly appreciate everyones thoughts and opinions on the situation.

as for charging the guy for taking care of the snake, jeff and luke said that he appeared more interested in selling her than getting her back. he is just asking way more than we can afford. what i am hopeing is that we can make him a much lower offer due to the fact that we have kept her and housed her and fed her etc for x amount of days.

she is a beautiful snake. we had her out last night and she is kind of shy but she relaxed after a while and jeff held her for almost 2 hours. we have a friend coming out to take a good look at her. like jeff said, she appears healthy but we want her checked out just in case, then she moves into the reptile room with everyone else. i'll try to get a pic of her later today and post it.
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> And for any future events in that area, for the record, I do not sell rescues or adoptions.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Neither do I. I do place fees on some of them, but for the most of them they go to new homes at no cost at all from the adopter. The ones that do have a fee are the ones that cost in such areas as meds etc while they were here is all..or even shipping /transport costs to get em here for rehabbing. AND even then, the fees are nowhere near what the actual costs were either. Main thing is to insure that they get placed into a new home that they are properly taken care of and all that.
Iguanas on the other hand usually do have adoption fees but that is cuz they are much more expensive to just feed is all. Due to their needs of the fresh greens daily..UGH.

AND also in most cases where there are adoption fees associated with the reptiles.. I let em slide is all hehe. Don't do such for the money making .. I get that from my breeding things I do  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

Sure.. I'll keep that in mind as we do get a lot of calls usually from the VA area for reptiles. What can you handle..or more so.. what are your restrictions even ? Like.. Can you house/handle the BIG UNS in snakes at all possibly ? ie the 10'+ burms, retics, ARP's and even annies... Those are usually the ones that come from that state. ALso Igs hehe What about those ?
 
Lori, I can handle just about anything except Igs.  I also have helpers if it's something big and if you can't make it down.  I hope to be building some sort of sanctuary or something where I can keep Igs outside in dinwiddie county.  About a 1/2 hour away from MRS.  Also, I am usually off of work by 10am m-s and 1pm on sundays so I can do stuff during the day as well.  Just e-mail me, I will e-mail you my phone number and you can call anytime, leave a message if there is no answer.
 
I'm also in the Richmond, VA area.  Regarding euthanizing, it is common practice that any reptiles turned over to a shelter or SPCA are immediately euthanized here in VA - been that way for as long as I can remember.  I volunteered with the humane societies some years back as well as participated in fund raising for the SPCA.  I've taken in rescue off and on for years - most always brought to me by individuals that know me personally or work in the pet stores I frequent.  I still take in snakes that I hear of when I have the space, or arrange for friends I know to take them.  Between my best friend and I, we have a regular petting zoo of snakes from tiny neonate African house snakes to an eleven foot burmese python.

From my experience and what I have been told by people in the rescue/humane organizations, including county/city shelters, reptiles are not something they are set up to handle and are thus euthanized.  Yes, there are a few groups like Iguana First in our area that get some of the animals, but when I've called the shelters looking for reptiles to adopt or to leave my name if some come in, I am almost always told there are no groups doing reptile rescue in this area and that it is policy to euthanize them.  Unfortunately for the herps, many Virginians still believe the only good snake is a dead one or that they are wild animals not meant to be kept in captivity.  Sad, but true.

Dianne
 
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