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An ethics question, Help

Dianne,
I think you know, like almost all virginians, any snake is either a copperhead or cottonmouth and needs to have it's head cut off.  That's the attitude here.  Those are the only 2 species of snakes that exist.  Period.  And then everyone wants to complain about rodent problems, all the while killing the animals that control them.  I go through that with some of my own family.  When you talk about adoption programs, or rescues, or shelters, the response I usually get is "What kind of dogs do you take in?"  It's funny, even ferrets, which are the 3rd most popular pet, and a totally domesticated species, are looked at as wild animals.  How do we expect people to accept reptiles? I said it before, we are still a little backwards here.  Dianne, the offer stands for you too.  If you ever need any help, just let me know.  That goes for anybody in Virginia or even Maryland or NC.  If I can't take it, I know some people that may.
 
Several years ago, my big-hearted little sister was driving home when she saw a Percheron stallion tied beside an abandoned railroad track in the middle of a "cover-leaf" intersection of two busy highways.  Now, the horse was no where near the traffic, but he had no water available to him as he had knocked his water bucket over.  My sister, thinking only in the best interest of the animal, went home and got our standard two-horse trailer to bring him home with her.

Now, I don't know how many of you know how big a Percheron is, but this horse was WAY over two thousand pounds, and he just barely fit into a two-horse trailer with the middle divider taken out!  Sis got him loaded, though, and started down the road with him.

About that time, the Mennonite farmer who had tied his draft horse there while he ate his lunch came back and saw his prize stallion being stolen by my sister!  He got her license number and called the sheriff.  Needless to say, it was quite the time on the home place when the sheriff and this man came to arrest little sister for horse stealing!

The moral to this story?  Well, we all know that it was irresponsible to the Nth degree to leave that snake in that storage room at those temps.  However, our only legal recourse is to a) contact the owner and encourage a change in habits, b) call the local authorities and let them handle however they see fit, or c) feel sorry for the plight of the animal but mind our own business anyway.

Personally, I try to do "a" and "b" in that order, but I would give in to the wisdom of "c" before I would EVER try to take it upon myself to impose my standards of care upon another person's property (what ever type of property it might be).  I understand everyone's desires to stamp out animal cruelty (I share them), but some people think it cruel to feed live prey to snakes because of the very possible harm that can come from a mouse or rat bite or because of the suffering that is endured by the food item.  

Will we then take those animals away from our fellow herpers because they are using husbandry tactics that are deemed to be cruel?  I doubt it, but that is where the logical conclusion of "save a reptile from cruelty, regardless of ownership rights" leads one if we are honest with ourselves.

Just a thought to ponder or disregard as you see fit. . .
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (cnjreptiles @ Aug. 05 2002,13:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Jeff,

I emailed you as well, but thought I'd also post here.  I don't actually work in or with an organized rescue outfit any more.  I just take in animals that I hear about or run across - any type, any size.  Those I don't end up with, my best friend usually does.  We're both partial to boas and pythons, but colubrids aren't out either.  Both of us endeavor to take in those snakes who aren't wanted or who've outgrown their owners and give them a nice place to live for the rest of their lives.  A few I've taken in over the years I've placed with other people but not often.  Most of what I took in, I kept.  Basically I've got a passion for animals, especially ones in need, and I find or make space for them.  For years this included rodents, dogs, cats and birds in addition to the snakes and a couple of igs.  Nowadays it's my snakes and a couple of indoor cats - smaller place to live and no yard to speak of means I had to adjust the amount and type of animals that come in.  

Regarding the typical Virginian viewpoint on snakes, you're right but I'd say most recognize 4 species instead of two - black snakes, copperheads, moccasins and rattlers - all of which need to die.  If you get into some of the farming communities (those that do not breed fowl because snakes will also take chicks), you will see some recognize black snakes as useful animals, but those people are the exception rather than the rule.  My family doesn't understand me (my brother jokes and says I'm really Steve Irwin's little sister) but they accept the snakes for the most part though they do get a bit upset when I start catching 'wild' stuff. lol  Oddly enough, my Dad is the one who taught me what I could and couldn't catch (readily recognizes there are numerous species of beneficial snakes) but doesn't think they should be kept as captive pets.  Go figure?  <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>  

Dianne
 
Dianne,
I will concede that point to you.  Having lived in farming communities and on large farms myself you do have that respect for snakes and understand the benefits of having them. It was directed more towards the cities or the burbs where people don't think they just kill.  I drive a lot for my job and see it every day.  Especially near the rivers where if a snake is in the water, it is automatically a water mocassin and the fear kicks in.  
Darin,
I agree a lot with your point of view.  I do think extreme situations require other options though.  I consider this an example of extreme.  The one thing I don't agree with is contacting authorities, not in this area.  As you can see in the posts by Lori, Dianne, and myself it wouldn't do a lot of good.  Something like this makes us all look bad to the public, and state agencies, when it happens.  I'm just glad my brother was the one to find it and not someone who is deathly afraid of snakes.
It's a hard line to draw, animal rights versus owners rights.  A lot of us disagree on husbandry techniques.  There is no one way to do things in this hobby.  But when I think about it I usually side with animal rights.  The good thing is, in my experiences, reptile owners generally take much better care of their pets than a lot of dog and cat owners.  Plus we don't make them wear those stupid sweaters to take pictures and show them off to everyone.
<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>
No offense anyone, it just drives me crazy.  Dogs and cats don't need sweaters, that's what fur is for.
 
What really bugs me is that if it were a dog or cat found in that storage unit, there would be no questioning if the owner could have it back, regardless of his living situation.  He would lose the animal and likely be doing time and/or paying heavy fines for animal cruelty.  

I personally believe that if this person left his animal ILLEGALLY in an unlocked storage unit, he has lost all rights to that animal period.  Many storage companies state that they are not responsible for items stored in your storage unit, ESPECIALLY if they are not properly secured.  And the fact that he kept a live animal in his storage unit is totally against ANY policy I have ever read or heard of for those places and this issue should be fairly mute(and against the law in many places).  From what his contract with them apparently read, if he was in violation of his contract, the company would reserve the right to do with his unit and the items within as they saw fit.  He violated his contract in two ways from what I am reading.  The company did what it saw fit with the snake.  I would say he is lucky that he didn't end up losing everything he had.    

I guess the moral of the story is that this animal should be where it belongs, in the hands of someone capable of properly caring for it.  And two, that if you are falling onto hard times, get your animals somewhere that they can be properly taken care of, because if you can't take care of yourself, you can't take care of them.
 
Well Rob, I was anxious to get to the end of this thread to add my 2 cents and you took the words right out of my mouth.  

Many times my trip to the grocery store has me bringing home a greater ratio of animal food to human food than a normal person would consider acceptable...or sane.  When we take an animal into our care, we are responsible for it.  There is no excuse for the way this animal was treated...NONE.

Anyone falling on hard times should realize that and find their pets a new home.  By not doing so, they only prove they are selfish and don't care about the well being of the animal much at all.

Granted, the police should have been called, and the contract voided.  There is a pretty good chance that all this stress could have been avoided.

It is so sad that reptiles don't recieve the attention that dogs or cats do, but more and more people are becoming educated, so I don't think it will be long.

Good luck and congratulations for the rescue!

Kassandra Royer
 
Unfortunately, reptiles DO receive attention, but only the BAD kind.  It's not a big deal when a dog bites a child, but God forbid a snake bite a child, it is national news for months.  

Kassandra, glad someone understood what I was saying:)  I too leave the store with more food for my animals than for me.  As a matter of fact if it is a decision of me getting dinner or my animals, my animals will win out.  I can ALWAYS find somewhere or something to eat, my animals don't have that option.  There aren't too many late-night cricket windows:D

But again, this person violated a legally binding contract with the storage company and is suffering the consequences.  
Good luck with that girl, and I hope that she can at least stay where she is guaranteed a good quality of life.
 
Rob and Kassandra,
That was the point I was trying to make as well.  The legalities are a non issue at this point.  He doesn't know me or where I live, my brother will not be working there after this week so there really is not a whole lot he can do to find me.  If I was that kind of person, it wouldn't even worry about it.  That's why it's an ethics question instead of a legal one.  The animal needed help, I had the ability to help, the owner can not properly care for the animal.  If and when he gets it together, I am not just going to let him come pick her up and go.  I did mention expenses to him if he wished to get her back, food, time, veterinary, and whatever else may come along.  If he is serious I guess he'll pay up.  If not, she is very happy in her new home, doing well, safe, secure, and has a mate waiting for her if she stays.
 
Well, 10 days so far and no word.  Not a single call to see how she is doing, nothing.  He said he wanted her back in about 2 weeks when I talked to her, it's getting close and haven't heard a thing from him.  I guess we'll see in the next week or so.
 
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