Bad Guy Angel O'neil (qegalpal)

[DAND]

If that is the snake in question which was sold to Deb then Angel is no Angel.

 

[qegalpal]

As a matter of fact, someone had already inquired about any problems with wobble in the snake and Angel had responded that there was NOT.
When I saw the photos she posted, it was pretty clear that the snake was unnaturally contorting and probably had a problem.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186948

Glad you got your refund, Deborah - and a damn shame another beautiful animal has to suffer.

Angel, good that you refunded Deborah. Honesty and integrity are what define a person - keep that in mind. It will serve you as a seller AND a buyer.

yes, I know

I had no idea I was suppose to mention the wobble. I had never noticed it until someone asked about it in another thread and I took him out for observation,
not knowing it was genetic, I thought nothing of it.

 

[qegalpal]

Angel, good that you refunded Deborah. Honesty and integrity are what define a person - keep that in mind. It will serve you as a seller AND a buyer.

I sold, as a woma, a snake that was sold to me as a woma.
The wobble, I am, and will be doing much more research on it and bp genetic defects in general.

Ahh I apologize. I thought you said you were going to, then saw this thread and didn't. Again, sorry

ditto, sorry for the snap

 

[DAND]

I sold, as a woma, a snake that was sold to me as a woma.
The wobble, I am, and will be doing much more research on it and bp genetic defects in general.

I wish I had a nickel for every time I have said this:

EXPAND YOUR KNOWLEDGE BEFORE
YOU EXPAND YOUR COLLECTION!!!!!

 

[deborahbroadus]

I wish I had a nickel for every time I have said this:

EXPAND YOUR KNOWLEDGE BEFORE
YOU EXPAND YOUR COLLECTION!!!!!

That goes for me too, and I have no excuse.

That's why I was ready to eat crow if it was my fault for not researching. But honestly, I have never came across ANY information that indicates that Womas wobble.

It was chiefly for this reason that I was ready to phrase out my Spiders and substitute another genetic pattern that was similiar.

Thank you Laura for finding that tidbit!

 

[DAND]

That goes for me too, and I have no excuse.

Then you owe me a nickel too.

 

[Abby]

Just thought I'd post this - I found this post where someone has a wobbling Woma. Looks like other people also have wobbling Womas.

http://iherp.com/Answers/ReptileProblem.aspx?Id=13286

 

[deborahbroadus]

Then you owe me a nickel too.

Cheap for the lesson. Well worth the price!

 

[SPJ]

Based upon the photos Laura posted, I think that is a spider with a severe wobble and not actually a woma. I don't think it's IBD. I think it's just a terribly wobbling spider. If it eats and grows, give it away as a pet. I don't think it needs to be culled at this stage but I also don't think it should ever be bred. There must be someome out there that would keep it as a pet. Personally, I think Angel sold it to unload a difficult animal. I also don'T belive you were sent a woma.

 

[Matt2979]

Deb, I just found this thread. Looks like things have turned out ok for you....of course with the exception of a MUCH more stressful week than you should have had!! Sorry you had to go through all of that!

As for Angel, I would've given her PART of the benefit of the doubt since she SORT OF made things right....but to find out that she flat out lied about the wobble....NO sell to/NO buy from!!!!

I have a spider in my collection that has a wobble JUST like that snake in the video (whether it's a woma or spider). It does not get bred and I've tried to sell it a few times. Guess the only reason I haven't sold it is because I ALWAYS offer the info of how bad the wobble is. Something that I expect out of any good seller!!!

 

[deborahbroadus]

Know what ticks me off? I look a MESS in this video and I just know everyone is looking at it for the express purpose of saying..."So THAT'S what she REAAAALLY looks like!" LOL

 

[JudyC]

Know what ticks me off? I look a MESS in this video and I just know everyone is looking at it for the express purpose of saying..."So THAT'S what she REAAAALLY looks like!" LOL

LOL...I think you're beautiful!

I'm glad you got your money back. That's a check mark on the positive side for Angel. Angel...it's not too late to redeem your reputation, especially after you've already refunded the money. Rather than getting all defensive and trying to make excuses about why none of this is your fault....just accept the responsibility that is yours to bear and show a willingness to learn from the whole situation.

Some people do get off to a rocky start but are able to grow and mature into reliable businessmen/women. It's most certainly not too late.

What should anyone learn from this?

1. KNOW what you're doing before taking on the responsibility of selling live animals. This is NOT a business that one should just jump into because it looks "cool".

2. Always be honest and up front with customers and potential customers...even if it costs you a sale. Your good rep will earn you WAY more money in the long run than any single misrepresented sale.

3. When you mess up...just accept it. Yes, it sucks. It's painful and embarrassing. But everyone doing this was new at some point and has made mistakes. The difference between success and failure is how we choose to handle the ones we make. Don't get defensive and make excuses. Examine your mistakes and learn from them and do everything you can to make things right.

 

[ShadowAceD]

Glad it all got sorted out, Deb. I am still blown away by the initial statements, however.

Anyway ...

I know a great deal of people think culling that animal is uneccessary, but given that there is no guarantee she can give it to someone that will not attempt to breed it, it's the most logical thing in my opinion.

Like I said, I don't deal with BPs, but the "Wobble" issue should not exist (for the record, if a Boa had a similar issue, I would cull it as well, so I am not bias because it's a BP). It should not exist because that is a genetic trait that should not have been allowed to survive. I think for the sake of genetics alone it should be culled.

Just my two cents.

 

[bad-one]

That still appears to be a woma to me (talking 95% sure here), spider head markings are very defined unlike that snake's head markings that sort of fades into darker markings.

It does display the wobbling/spinning of spider which is unfortunate. At this point I would consider a woma wobbling a defect to the morph, unlike spiders which at this moment it seems highly likely it can't be bred out and is just an issue attatched to the morph.

I do wonder since other wobbling womas exist is if this gene is so similar to the spider that some display the some of same issues and it can't be bred out/randomly pops up? Or is it simply the cause of careless breeding? A good discussion for another time but something to think about...

Anyways, I'm glad you guys are working this out. Looks like a few lessons have been learned here

 

[deborahbroadus]

Glad it all got sorted out, Deb. I am still blown away by the initial statements, however.

Anyway ...

I know a great deal of people think culling that animal is uneccessary, but given that there is no guarantee she can give it to someone that will not attempt to breed it, it's the most logical thing in my opinion.

Like I said, I don't deal with BPs, but the "Wobble" issue should not exist (for the record, if a Boa had a similar issue, I would cull it as well, so I am not bias because it's a BP). It should not exist because that is a genetic trait that should not have been allowed to survive. I think for the sake of genetics alone it should be culled.

Just my two cents.

Have I told you lately that I looooove your mind?

 

[deborahbroadus]

You are exactly right. I know I've made my share of mistakes. I've been lucky enough to have "mentors" that have patiently advised and assisted me.

Thanks for the compliment, but I still want a do-over!

LOL...I think you're beautiful!

I'm glad you got your money back. That's a check mark on the positive side for Angel. Angel...it's not too late to redeem your reputation, especially after you've already refunded the money. Rather than getting all defensive and trying to make excuses about why none of this is your fault....just accept the responsibility that is yours to bear and show a willingness to learn from the whole situation.

Some people do get off to a rocky start but are able to grow and mature into reliable businessmen/women. It's most certainly not too late.

What should anyone learn from this?

1. KNOW what you're doing before taking on the responsibility of selling live animals. This is NOT a business that one should just jump into because it looks "cool".

2. Always be honest and up front with customers and potential customers...even if it costs you a sale. Your good rep will earn you WAY more money in the long run than any single misrepresented sale.

3. When you mess up...just accept it. Yes, it sucks. It's painful and embarrassing. But everyone doing this was new at some point and has made mistakes. The difference between success and failure is how we choose to handle the ones we make. Don't get defensive and make excuses. Examine your mistakes and learn from them and do everything you can to make things right.

 

[JMartin1982]

That poor snake! That's more then a head wobble. When the video was loading I was thinking more the lines of it's head shaking a bit. But that's a spinning in the air. Can't seem to right its self IBD action. I've seen in person what IBD looks like. That's a perfect example of it. Just look on youtube at the videos. I'd take it to the vet get tests done (if they have any new tests out that can be done). If you don't want to spend more money on it then I'd cull it so it don't spread to your other snakes. I wouldn't gamble my snakes lives thinking it was just a genetic trait and then it turn into something worse.

I'm glad it all worked out for you Deborah. You looked just fine in the video!

 

[snowgyre]

In my opinion as a leopard gecko breeder, selling a wobbly ball python without saying so is the exact same as selling a spinning enigma without saying so. I'm glad it's resolved, and I certainly hope Angel learned something valuable from this. Expand your knowledge before you expand your collection, indeed! Very good words of wisdom there.

Judy, you've got the absolute right of it when you say be completely honest about your animals, even if it costs you a sale. I know I've lost a few sales by admitting certain defects like tail kinks or enigma vision problems, heck, I've even been forced to adopt a few out, but avoiding a problem is the first step in any good business.

I don't know much about IBD diagnosis. Is it possible to get a liver biopsy while the animal is alive, or is it a post-mortem test? Regardless, if you decide to cull the snake, Deborah, I think I'd still get it tested. IBD certainly isn't anything to fool around with, and the test would be for peace of mind.

And Deborah, you looked adorable, so don't be so paranoid about the video. ;-)

 

[chris allen]

I wouldn't give it away. As a friend calls it....it needs to go into the "cryogenic zoo". Its the responsible thing to do no matter what people think.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

You can do a liver biopsy on a live snake. It's an operation though, and you cannot rule out IBD even if the liver biopsy comes up clean. The necropsy would mean the snake would be checked thoroughly, including the brain tissue, to put your mind at ease about whether it's IBD or a genetic wobble.