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Bad Guy Angel O'neil (qegalpal)

Sorry for the double post, just found the video to watch. The snake looks just like my wobbly spider. My guess would be it's perfectly healthy, except for the genetic defect of wobbles. But I'd understand the need to be certain about it.
 
Wolfy-hound said:
You can do a liver biopsy on a live snake. It's an operation though, and you cannot rule out IBD even if the liver biopsy comes up clean. The necropsy would mean the snake would be checked thoroughly, including the brain tissue, to put your mind at ease about whether it's IBD or a genetic wobble.
Click to expand...

It would make a difference if it were going to stay, it is not. It has also not come within into my collections' environment. I have an attached shed off the kitchen in the back, and the collection is two rooms away in the basement with several walls and floors between.

I no longer really care what is wrong with it (I am stressed out). It can not stay and I am not soft-headed (ooops, I mean soft-hearted) enough to keep it alive at the risk of my own collection. I am also NOT taking it to the Vet because I have to transport my own animals in my car and this animal is not getting within spitting distance of my collection.

I am wondering why people keep suggesting a VET, regardless of what it has, a Vet can't help, and taking it around just increases the risk to my own collection and others.
 
Well, without a doubt this poor guy should be at the very least named TIMMY!!!! To take a chance that it is or is not IBD and to gamble with the rest of your collection is something I would not suggest doing. To give it away to someone else would be passing that gamble on to that person. Personally I think that it should be cryogenically frozen with the hope that in the future they can find a cure for the wobble.
 
DAND said:
Well, without a doubt this poor guy should be at the very least named TIMMY!!!! To take a chance that it is or is not IBD and to gamble with the rest of your collection is something I would not suggest doing. To give it away to someone else would be passing that gamble on to that person. Personally I think that it should be cryogenically frozen with the hope that in the future they can find a cure for the wobble.
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Thank you.
 
Deb. Earlier I said that I was glad that this worked out for you. Seems my statement was a bit premature. I'm really sorry that you're being forced to to make this difficult decision.

It's hard enough when you have to do such a thing because of a problem with a baby that you produced. I've never had to suffer through this, due to something that somebody sent me so I can't claim to know how bad this part feels.

I can only remind you that you are not alone in your decision. Anyone that finds a problem with your choice has probably not bred many animals and therefor has been fortunate to not to go through this experience. I don't think it can ever be an easy decision, but sometimes it is a necessary one. In the end, you've got to do what's necessary to protect your animals. They rely on you!!
 
I own a train wreck spinner who is a het pied. He will be with me till he dies and will never be bred. He hatched out with all the classic signs of IBD and major neurological problems. The breeder who I worked for, for some time was just going to cull him due to his problems because anyone who saw him and still to this day see's him thinks "OMG IBD" and would kill him off instantly. I insisted to take him home and try to give him the most normal life he could live. I've had him since 2006. He is a great snake who I love dearly.

Sadly for you Mrs Deb, I can understand what you are going though. I know if I had gotten a snake who had those problems and signs, I too would cull it off just to be on the safe side. Sadly on the other hand it is to bad not knowing this snakes history because it very well could just be a spinner, but with the lack of info from the seller of this snake... your best bet is to take your entire collection into consideration and cull the snake.
 
I hope future breeders have learned from this. Please do not shuffle your problems on to another simply because you may not be strong enough to do the right thing, want to make a buck or think that there's nothing wrong with selling an animal that isn't outwardly healthy or has bites and scars without disclosing these issues ahead of time (forgive me while I wax poetic..I am getting a bit tipsy here).

If you want to do rescues..do rescues and keep them forever and/or only GIVE (with a donation) them out as PETS, but if you want to breed, make it your goal, focus and desire to breed the most healthy, amazing specimens of whichever species you choose to breed.
 
deborahbroadus said:
:thumbsup: Have I told you lately that I looooove your mind?:)
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You haven't ... but you know me and my ego love to hear it. Lol

I agree with not really wanting to bring it to the vet to figure out what is going on with it. While it would be ideal to send it back to Angel, I still think it's just better to cull it.

Regardless, I stand by what I say. Even if it isn't IBD, that genetic triat should not be allowed to thrive, if the proper thing had been done in the beginning with Spiders, and the defective animals were culled and only the healthy allowed to breed, and their offspring culled for the defect, then it'd be less prominant. Theoretically, this trait can eventually be outcrossed. I understand the stance of giving them to someone as just a pet, but unless you are keeping it yourself, there is no guarantee. If it was that simple to take someone's word for it, then we would not have an overpopulation problem regarding cats and dogs. People adopt from shelters, sign a contract that they will fix the animal and still never do it. Then it breeds and, bam, more unwanted animals.

Culling animals is part of this industry/hobby/business. I am sorry, but it just is. You better believe if I have animals born with kinks, missing eyes, blind, severe under or over bites or other genetic defects, they are getting culled. The parents are going to be rotated to other pairs and if the same genetic problems present, the parent thought to be responsible will never be bred again.

Greed has saturated the market with genetically deformed animals. Selling them at a discounted price or giving them away for free is not the right thing to do. It may sound heartless, but if you want to better the industry, that is what has to happen.

Business - selling, offering, rendering goods and services for profit.

Business with Ethics - selling, offering, rendering goods and services for profit provided the profit is in the better interest of the industry and does not weaken, destroy or compromise the integrity of it.

Just saying.
 
I read through the entire other thread but only through the first page on this one thus far. I have this to say: Who in their right mind expects to sell a snake in that condition and NOT hear about it from the unsuspecting buyer? Though my experience is undoubtedly less than others', I've never heard of wobbling womas. I would personally no more think to ask if a woma I wanted to purchase had a wobble than I would to ask if, say, a mojave or pastel did. I shouldn't have to, either. Responsible sellers know that full disclosure is the only way to go.

I'm more of a BOI lurker than contributer but this issue hits home for me right now. I recently listed a spider ball for sale that has a MUCH, MUCH less noticeable wobble than Deb's "woma-spider," but I still wrote explicitly about it in the ad. (I did ask before I bought it if it had a wobble and was told it did not. :rolleyes:). Deb, I understand you not insisting on your money back, but you are certainly entitled to a full refund in my opinion - particularly since you chose a woma over a spider for the specific purpose of NOT getting a wobbler.
 
Woma's do sometimes have a wobble. If you breed a woma x woma you get a Pearl (super woma) the wobble is so bad they can not even eat or drink and all of them die shortly after being born. There is a defect in the gene's of woma's just like spiders but generally woma's have very little wobble or no wobble at all. I have seen adult, yearling, and just hatched out woma's with a wobble but nothing even close to as bad as what that one is doing in the video. It should have been disclosed before buying it. There is no way the seller did not notice this before they listed it for sale. As for what to do with it that's your personal choice and I'm not going to give an opinion on that.
 
I have a couple of theories on what may be going on.
There's the possibility it's a very low white spider with a wobble. The head pattern makes this debatable, but not ruled out.
It could also be a woma/spider cross. The pictures I've seen of that combo are snakes that show some variability, but very often look just like that, a very low white spider.
Since the spider wobble can show up whenever the spider gene is expressed, it's a distinct possibility that that snake may be a combo. It would explain both the woma look and the wobble as well.
Here's some pics from NERD's site of the spider/woma cross.

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/nerd/index.php/ball-pythons/spider-woma-ball-python.html

I'm largely unfamiliar with the woma gene specifically, but I did notice a comment on NERD's site that said
The "super" (homozygous) form of the Woma ball is a "Pearl" - a creamy off-white snake with dark navy blue eyes. For unknown reasons, the homozygous Pearl is a weak gene & these animals fail to thrive due to inhibited motor skills.
Click to expand...
Apparently there are some motor skills issues with the womas but whether they are only seen in the homozygous form I don't know. I would think "inhibited motor skill" would also be an adequate description of the spider wobble as well so perhaps the two conditions are similar in effect.

As for the whole IBD concern, if you are not returning the snake, I would cull it then have a necropsy done just to rule that out. Personally I doubt that is the issue, but the peace of mind gained from knowing it wasn't the problem will be well worth it. Then you won't have to harbor any wondering for the next few weeks or months about the however slight possibility that that disease may have been in proximity to your collection.
 
Clay Davenport said:
I have a couple of theories on what may be going on.
There's the possibility it's a very low white spider with a wobble. The head pattern makes this debatable, but not ruled out.
It could also be a woma/spider cross. The pictures I've seen of that combo are snakes that show some variability, but very often look just like that, a very low white spider.
Since the spider wobble can show up whenever the spider gene is expressed, it's a distinct possibility that that snake may be a combo. It would explain both the woma look and the wobble as well.
Here's some pics from NERD's site of the spider/woma cross.

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/nerd/index.php/ball-pythons/spider-woma-ball-python.html

I'm largely unfamiliar with the woma gene specifically, but I did notice a comment on NERD's site that said

Apparently there are some motor skills issues with the womas but whether they are only seen in the homozygous form I don't know. I would think "inhibited motor skill" would also be an adequate description of the spider wobble as well so perhaps the two conditions are similar in effect.

As for the whole IBD concern, if you are not returning the snake, I would cull it then have a necropsy done just to rule that out. Personally I doubt that is the issue, but the peace of mind gained from knowing it wasn't the problem will be well worth it. Then you won't have to harbor any wondering for the next few weeks or months about the however slight possibility that that disease may have been in proximity to your collection.
Click to expand...

GREAT information AND advice - and it also answered a question in my mind as to whether Deb's animal could be a woma-spider cross. It would seem, from this and other posts, that womas do indeed carry a genetic defect - though one that apparently doesn't appear with the frequency nor severity of the spider wobble. It's a shame because it does give the lie to those who thought/hoped the woma could substitute for spiders in a breeding program, without risk of the inherent genetic problems. :( I wonder if this animal could be displaying the neurological problems associated with defective genes from both parents? Is this what one could expect to see from a woma-spider cross where both parents have defects? Just musing in print - and further cementing my belief that animals with known defects should never be bred. Deb, so sorry for the week you've had but you still look mahvelous! Angel, hats off for getting the refund to Deb so quickly. I think the biggest lesson for you from this situation is the magnificent advice Dave imparted about expanding knowledge. ;) Off to bed now since I'm rambling.
 
First let me thank everyone for their advice, I did take it all into consideration.

I have had a necro done before on an animal that had passed quarantine and died WHILE having been in contact and within my collection (she died of internal systemic septic infection from bites/burns that she had when I purchased her). The procedure was performed by Stahl and co; I still have the paperwork.

In this case, I did not opt to do so, because the animal had not come anywhere near my collection and I observed STRICT quarantine procedures including washing from head to toe (and hair), and dumping clothes into the washer each time I handled the snake and handling him last (I do remember Jen Harrison).

The mouth, cloaca/anal vent seemed relatively clean and clear of any buildup or mucus. While it was a bit thin for my taste, it did not appear to be starving and no ribs were definitely sticking out, but I would classify it as underfed (this is my personal opinion).

I decided to cull ASAP and dispose of the carcass rather than keep it around, box it up, or take it to a vet (would involve being transported in my car) and if IF by any incident this animal did have IBD, I was not willing to take any further risk. IF the animal had passed quarantine and been in my collection then OF COURSE, I would have had a necro done.

Culling the animal and disposing of the carcass was the least risky option. As it is, I still have a period of observation (this works out fine as I have time before the new animal arrives) before any new animals are brought in or shipped out. During this time, the new hatchlings (as will they all) will be observed very closely. I am observing them because if anything (IF the animal had anything) they will more than likely be the first to display any symptoms.

I do not believe anything has gotten to my collection (as paranoid as I am), but of course, I will continue to observe.

Thanks again for your support and assistance.:)
 
I'm with Steve and Thomas on this one... that is a spider. The head pattern is the only thing that made me stop and question but I have seen spiders with more filled in heads. If it is IBD wouldn't the animal be long dead? I was under the impression from my reptile vet (20 years experience) that IBD was very quickly fatal to pythons? Ill have to ask again..

I do not think its right to keep the refund after culling the animal either.. sorry not the popular vote I'm sure but wether it is IBD a woma or a macklots if you keep it or cull it its your decision and that makes it your animal. if your making the decisions and its in your posession then its yours, yes?.
Deb this sucks and I feel for you, should you get compensation for the stress of thinking you have the devil at your door/QT room but it should be Angels decision to do the right thing not have your ethics (which I applaud) rule her decision of wether it lives or dies. Refund the purchase price keep the shipping money and walk away head held high knowing you did the right thing, of course just MHO. And no I don't think angel was right in any of this other than offering a refund.
 
chongorojo said:
I do not think its right to keep the refund after culling the animal either.. sorry not the popular vote I'm sure but wether it is IBD a woma or a macklots if you keep it or cull it its your decision and that makes it your animal. if your making the decisions and its in your posession then its yours, yes?.
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Normally, I'd agree with you, but Deb WANTED to send the animal back after the refund was given, and the seller REFUSED to take it and told her to do whatever she wanted with it. So that puts the question of ownership squarely back on the seller's shoulders.
 
That I did not know Judy, thanks for clue-ing me in. Lol. I assumed of all people Deb would do what's right... but then again you know what happens when we assume. Sucky situation to be put in as it was!
 
Maybe a little off-topic, but it was brought up. I was always under the impression that the Pearl was the super form of the hidden-gene woma, not the common woma most people have. I've heard of people, including BHB if I remember correctly shooting for the super woma/pearl with the common womas and only getting womas, nothing spectacular or anything remotely like a Pearl. Since NERD works with the HG and not many others have them, I among others have come to the conclusion the Pearl is indeed the super of the HG Woma. It kind of makes sense since the HG does such cool things when put into other morphs while the common woma doesn't (still cool, just not crazy).

Anyway, not to derail things.... :eek:
 
chongorojo said:
That I did not know Judy, thanks for clue-ing me in. Lol. I assumed of all people Deb would do what's right... but then again you know what happens when we assume. Sucky situation to be put in as it was!
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I think that Deb DID do what's right in this situation...but I also think that "right and wrong" have much different circumstances according to certain different people.

Yeah, we know what happens when you assume...you make an @$$ out of yourself! :thumbsup:
 
Deb, I only posted the information about the liver biopsy, vs the brain, etc etc.. because someone above me asked about that. I in no way wanted to imply you should have a liver biopsy done, in fact, in my own opinion, a liver biopsy would not rule OUT IBD, so it would be just as if you had done nothing at all, and you'd be out the money for the liver biopsy without full assurance that it was clear of IBD.

Personally, since you offered to send it back, and the seller said outright that you should keep it and cull it, you are within your rights to cull the animal. If you are fine without a necropsy and are content with the precautions you have taken(you sound like you did better than a lot of "clean labs" as far as cross-contaimination), then there wouldn't be any need to transport the body to get a necropsy.

As far as it contaminating your car, you could easily package the body up in succeeding layers of plastic or had a friend use their car to be certain there was no contamination. I only say this in case someone might be thinking of how they can transport without risk of spreading any virus/bacteria/bugs.

Even if I was 90% certain it was a spinner, rather than infected, how much chance to risk your entire collection is okay? Plus you'd risk other people's collections, through passing on snakes, or passing on particles on your clothing etc. That you chose to put the snake down, rather than risking it, says a lot about how serious you are about keeping not only YOUR collection safe, but all of our collections safe.
 
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