****Anthony McCain BAD , STAy Away****

[mykee]

After hearing Anthony's side of the story, I tend to agree with him. The buyer in this case is certainly being unreasonable and quite childish. Anthony, though not going above and beyond to fix this, is certainly showing a high level of professionalism in dealing with this matter. It's unfortunate that his reputation is trying to be tarnished with this dealing.

 

[nora]

ok since im somewhat confused.. the Female that derek has now that didnt produce any visible albinos is the same female that Anthony bred that didnt also produce any albinos... so then that girl can been deemed as a proven normal breeder. Right?

Ok so now derek has a breedable female that has produced 100% hets that he can easily sell off and in time make up for any monetary loss due to Anthony's error, but at the same time Anthony is trying his best to appease a disgruntled customer and offer him something thats near equal value that was in the original deal.

Am I missing something? FFS, not everyone is gonna win, cuz seriously, both anthony and derek are getting screwed by each other cuz one person wants something specific when the other is trying to offer what he thinks is best to make up for his error. Someone is gonna hafta give in and say screw it, other wise this situation is gonna just only add to the aggrivation that's already there. If neither one of you can come to a compromise, then people are gonna see Anthony as a crap seller, and/or Derek as a whiney greedy buyer.

If, Anthony has an offer on the table for derek, and derek has something else in mind... take the 2 and work from there. Come to a compromise and walk away.

End of story. =]

 

[ravensgait]

Nora it is a bit confusing but I think they are talking about a Sib to Derek's female ""I had a sibling female lay 6 eggs , one egg perished half way into incubation and 5 hatched , I didn't get any albinos from that clutch either.""

Now if I understood the it correctly the female that produced Derek's female and the sib mentioned was with another male the year before producing these two girls and that there is the very very remote chance she retained sperm from this other non albino male. Which is one very small possibility of why these two girls didn't produce visuals this year IE not being Het albinos. I think it is very unlikely that that happened but--

Derek made it sound as if Anthony had bred his (sibling to Derek's female) to something else last year IE the retained sperm thing .. where it seems that it was the mother of these two that had been sleeping around and had been with another man in the past...

It is possible and from what has been said here that both these females just bucked the odds this year. When it comes down to it we have to take Derek's and Anthony's word here as it is all we have to go on. If they are both being truthful with us then it is likely that Derek's female will throw some albinos in the future.

There have been a few threads like this and one a while back where someone even wanted compensation for animals not produced when the guy hadn't even bred his Het yet. It really doesn't help when there have been the infamous threads about the selling of fake hets which makes many worry about any Het they have.

Now I'm not trying to tell Anthony what to do but if it were me I'd do one of the following things. 1. Refund the money for the female and include some for her care since Derek's had her and have her returned to me... 2. If I had a proven female Het I'd trade her for Derek's Female. 3. Offer half the purchase price of the female and let him keep her. 4. If I were really worried about this female having retained sperm from another male I'd refund her selling price and let him keep her.... I know some wont agree but if you take the dollar signs down from in front of your eyes and realise that we are talking about an animal. They die, get sick and don't produce for any number of reasons, you bought an animal not a business...Randy

 

[Anthony McCain]

Just to clarify the female was a virgin, and has only produced 1 clutch, I had a sister to his female that also didn't hatch out albinos (albino x het, 5 eggs hatch out of 6) , that is why I was taking the safe approach that sperm retention from the mother of these 2 adult females "could" have been the problem here, not that it is for sure or proven, just yet , but that it realistically could have happened.. That's why I offered to compensate him NOW and told him to just keep the adult and her 8 het babies just in case S.R. did occur as I agree his time is valuable too.. I also am willing to accept that if she does prove out later to be a Het I may NEVER know since I no longer own her, and realize this could happen as well, my first and foremost intention was to make him happy and if it turned out heavy in his favor later with him making a pile of albinos next time she lays then so be it.. Either way down the road maybe I'll hatch out some heavy odds somewhere else such as a Super Stripe clutch as God / Karma or whatever you choose to call the higher power will reward me for being fair about it and indirectly maybe I'll somehow be rewarded for being a honest , fair guy , that was trying to help someone out that maybe really didn't even appreciate my help.. It's really that simple, and I really did try to prevent all this from day one, when he called... that's really the perplexing part of all this! Anthony....

 

[SPJ]

Sounds like you are trying to work this out to keep Derek happy.

Hopefully the 2 of you will come to an amicable agreement.

 

[kare]

I don't think you can jump to conclusions on one breeding. I've got my ass kicked on albino production this year from female 100% het albinos that have produced albinos from me in the past (I produced them myself). I had 12 eggs from Albino x 100% het and only 1 albino in the clutch.

If you want to talk even worse odds I had 11 eggs from Pastel het Caramel x normal and there were no pastels in the clutch.

Sometimes the odds kick you in the ass and sometimes they are very generous. I'd say breed the female again and hope for albinos.

Corey

I agree on the conclusions with Corey. I bred a spider male with a large normal girl - 5 huge eggs, and not a single spider. Odds weren't with me at all on that batch and that was a "co-dom" morph - recessives, I believe, need to be proven over 2 clutches.

 

[Fedawg]

I have tried working this out with Derek ..As I have said I am not sure what caused her to not produce any albinos according to what Derek says.. I had a sibling female lay 6 eggs , one egg perished half way into incubation and 5 hatched , I didn't get any albinos from that clutch either. I was honest and told Derek about that and told him we would work it out with something else I had (such as a Mystic )and that he could keep the female he raised up from a subadult as well as all the 100% Hets from his " odds or if something carried over from the pastel, either way I was trying to help by sending him something up front before knowing everything. Derek likely has 3-4 100% Het Females worth $1000 or more already , yes that isn't 3k or whatever he was hoping for BUT I also told him to keep everything anyways besides what I wanted to send him..

I know if a dog breeder sold a dog that later on developed bad hips that the dog breeder would likely refund the money for the pup and say he was sorry , he WOULD'T cut him a 5k check since the owner lost money on pups he couldn't make in fear that the hip problem would be passed to the pups.. THAT being said I am trying to decide if because of the fact that he is calling me a theif , liar, jerk , etc, that perhaps it is best that I refund him for the female and end it all right now.. If she produces albinos next year for him I guess that's tough for me isn't it.. He is talking trash about me and my animals , when quite frankly I stand firmly behind them as being some of the best Balls in the nation..... He has done nothing here but try and make me look bad.. The BOI is intended to give people a heads up when someone is truely ripping people off , NOT SOMEONE that is doing all they can to work out an issue that hasn't been proved either way just yet.....

I offered him a Mystic as myself along with others feel the Mystic is a hot new morph that has huge potential and would have been a very generous animal to send him for any stortcomings he may have experienced... I was not trying to do anything but make him happy. At this point I don't know what is fair, as I've NEVER heard of another breeder doing much more than just giving a refund for the animal.. Derek can return the photo id'd Het G Stripes For CREDIT for other animals but cannot receive a cash refund as that doesn't follow my TERMS of sale policy... Anthony McCain..

Folks ,

A lot is missing of what went on behind the scenes , with the phone calls of him criticizing me because I am only 21 and haven't been in this as long as him. Talking to Anthony on the phone is like talking to a brick wall if you disagree , it is not happening. Anyone else who has gone through it with him knows the same


"I was honest and told Derek about that and told him we would work it out with something else I had (such as a Mystic )and that he could keep the female he raised up from a subadult as well as all the 100% Hets from his virgin animal, as it didn't seem right at the time for us both to miss on albinos..."

No you didn't . The first thing you did was get mad , told me you would give me $2500 off a Mystic , scream and yell trying to intimidate me. Then you said I don't want to talk about this anymore. Not once did you ever offer me anything.

I don't want your animals Anthony , if I get them and have another problem , Im not going through anything.


"Derek isn't returning my emails , nor will he listen to reason , he thinks I am out to get him or something, which I clearly am not... I offered to make it right with a Mystic , he agreed and then called back later that day to thank me for working it out, by the end of the conversation he had decided that he didn't want a Mystic after all , he said he was afraid I would drop the market on them so he didn't want one... I told him ALL the markets were dropping and will continue to , that if things don't sell at a specific price then the price drops until they do start selling again, nothing new here...."


Anthony you haven't sent me any emails since the a few days before I posted this. I don't have them , if you do , please POST them with dates attached.

No , you keep calling me from RESTRICTED numbers. I picked up once , not 10 seconds into it you started off with "Who do you think you are" this and that , I then hung up the phone.

After the rant you gave me on how you don't care what the Mystics sell for Anthony. The you tell me that some have already been wholesaled out to Big daddy's wholesale , Why would I want one , you are already undercutting the others you sold too . If this is such a high end snake , why are you wholesaling them already?

Anthony if all the prices are dropping , how is the Mystic going to be a $20k snake?

"Derek likely has 3-4 100% Het Females worth $1000 or more already , yes that isn't 3k or whatever he was hoping for BUT I also told him to keep everything anyways besides what I wanted to send him.. "

Yes , I do , these are snake sthat I would have made anyways . If I bred , i am now up hets and down albinos. Whether you like it not Anthony I would have kept them anyways , they are not yours . Your telling me to sell snakes from the clutch I produced , to recoupe for your mistake?????

Give me a reason why they would even go back to you??

I offered him a Mystic as myself along with others feel the Mystic is a hot new morph that has huge potential and would have been a very generous animal to send him for any stortcomings he may have experienced... I was not trying to do anything but make him happy. At this point I don't know what is fair, as I've NEVER heard of another breeder doing much more than just giving a refund for the animal.. Derek can return the photo id'd Het G Stripes For CREDIT for other animals but cannot receive a cash refund as that doesn't follow my TERMS of sale policy... Anthony McCain..


I think I already stated this above.

No I don't want your animals Anthony , and I wont take them. Not after you tell me you feed your 2 year old normal females 1 mouse a month. And also not after the guy who I sent you way to sell you rodents told me about your husbandry.

Folks this is not stuff I intentionally wanted to bring up , I am left with no choice , to explain why I don't want to deal with him or receive any of his animals.

Thanks again

Derek

 

[Laura Fopiano]

I was gonna stay out of this, but this one paragraph stood out.

Derek is also failing to mention the dozens of hours I have spent talking to him about Ball Pythons, the many sometimes late night hours that DIDN'T involve buying anything at all from me . Hours of MY time that I gave him my knowledge for free as I thought he appreciated an honest professional opinion of the Balls and it's market.. He is new to this and I was helping him the best way I knew how... DOES this really sound like I was scamming him ? He recently decided to treat me this way by going to the BOI before I could work anything out or come up with another solution just "in case" we really did have an issue with that "het" and has now turned this into something that was avoidable. He may be a customer , but I also deserve some respect too, especially since I was trying to help settle things the entire time ..

I have known Derek for a while now, have been chat friends, spent last year in Daytona together, and he's been like a son to me. We could spend hours talking and I truly believe him to be a good person.

Anthony I think, (I could be wrong) that because he did spend so much time with you on the phone and through other means of contact, that maybe you were a mentor of sorts to him.

He would go on and on about you in fauna chat, I even have a link to your site that he put up and I'm not a bp person. He never had a bad thing to say about you ever.

Derek is a high energy enthusiastic young keeper. He done things with his bp's that I didn't even think were possible.

My hope is that you can both come to a reasonable resolution to this situation and both put it behind you.

 

[SPJ]

Folks ,

The you tell me that some have already been wholesaled out to Big daddy's wholesale , Why would I want one , you are already undercutting the others you sold too . If this is such a high end snake , why are you wholesaling them already?


Derek

Ugh! There goes the market on mystics and there goes my opinion of Anthony. Why Big Daddys? Ugh!

If Derek is being honest (which I think he is) then Anthony needs to tell the ENTIRE story.

 

[Fedawg]

Ugh! There goes the market on mystics and there goes my opinion of Anthony. Why Big Daddys? Ugh!

If Derek is being honest (which I think he is) then Anthony needs to tell the ENTIRE story.

Yes , the entire story needs to be told.

 

[Fedawg]

Just for clarification. I cannot say for sure if Anthony sold them directly to Big Daddy's.

The point of me posting this was to show you why I did not want to get one of them , nor do I want to promote his animals. thanks

God Bless

Derek

 

[Fedawg]

Paul point taken.. I mentioned the refund on the female as settlement , ONLY because I don't appreciate being called a theif , that upsets me and doesn't make me look good , especially since I was trying to work things out from the start with him. I am one of the most honest breeders out there and have a sizeable list of breeders all over the USA that DO have hets from me, as I said this isn't a situation I've had to deal with before, that should mean something...

I have already offered him other animal choices here and recently over the phone thru a neutral party, I am trying to work it out EVEN if that female is indeed a HET in the end and makes albinos in the future for him...

Like I said I have snakes that cost me THOUSANDS that STILL have yet to lay anything, maybe they never will, but you don't see me asking for money from the breeders that sold them since no profit has come out of them yet and in some cases ALOT of time has now passed without ANY eggs... And if an Ivory isn't produced when they finally do lay and the numbers don't yield an Ivory right away from a female that looks like it's a true YB will you see me on here complaining to those guys for ripping me off all that time and $$, nope........


All of us have opinions as to how to settle this, frankly this is really between Derek and I , he decided to inform everyone this way and I told him from the start that we could settle it without going thru this.. I told him I would make it right either way, without blabbing things that still aren't conclusive , it may seem clearcut to some but it still isn't. This just takes up time and in alot of ways gets things turned upside down and takes things off in directions that have nothing to do with the original matter at hand...

Derek can call the person he talked to last night and get this resolved, since he doesn't talk to me on emails or over the phone..

Derek is also failing to mention the dozens of hours I have spent talking to him about Ball Pythons, the many sometimes late night hours that DIDN'T involve buying anything at all from me . Hours of MY time that I gave him my knowledge for free as I thought he appreciated an honest professional opinion of the Balls and it's market.. He is new to this and I was helping him the best way I knew how... DOES this really sound like I was scamming him ? He recently decided to treat me this way by going to the BOI before I could work anything out or come up with another solution just "in case" we really did have an issue with that "het" and has now turned this into something that was avoidable. He may be a customer , but I also deserve some respect too, especially since I was trying to help settle things the entire time ..

Derek told me the day of "our" clutch hatching out it's babies that another well known breeder sold him a female Het and she also produced ZERO albinos for Derek as well , she was sold as a "het" as well. I wonder if he told "that breeder" he wanted a pile of $$ too for lost albinos/time???? Wonder how they are working it out? It's all everyones business on here now , right?? Similiar issue, how should that issues be resolved , I would think it sounds just like this one. I know Derek wouldn't be trying to get something from people by being dishonest about things, he's a christian and I doubt he would do that, he's always told me the facts ... I didn't ask for the adult Het back as I generally trust what someone tells me unless I have reason to doubt their word.

I have a solid reputation in this industry for producing investment animals , nothing less.. Derek knows this , yet continues to trash my name, not very cool I don't think.. Most people would NOT go out of their way at this point for someone like Derek, especially not after being treated like this and trying to resolve things before it even got to this......... As for asking for an apology , your right , I would HOPE he would apologize for the things he's said in the end , I know I would for anything I said, that's ALWAYS the right thing to do, the way men should handle things..

I'd rather not continue on here with this, I've said my side.... He will need to either email me or contact the person he spoke with yesterday. I have a sizeable collection to tend to , I do this by myself on a respectable scale, I simply don't type 75 words/ minute and can't work on my animals from a computer, it's vital that I keep up on the rest of my business as well, afterall they are Live animals, not machines or coins. I will address the matter when Derek is able to work with either myself or a neutral person , and will handle this for good at that time .... Anthony..

Anthony

Paul point taken.. I mentioned the refund on the female as settlement , ONLY because I don't appreciate being called a theif , that upsets me and doesn't make me look good , especially since I was trying to work things out from the start with him. I am one of the most honest breeders out there and have a sizeable list of breeders all over the USA that DO have hets from me, as I said this isn't a situation I've had to deal with before, that should mean something...

No, being a thief isn't a good thing, a simple refund is not a settlement.
You threw an offer in my face , expected me to take it without saying a word. Not happening.

I have already offered him other animal choices here and recently over the phone thru a neutral party, I am trying to work it out EVEN if that female is indeed a HET in the end and makes albinos in the future for him...



I don't want your animals , I have already said why .

2 sister hets 13 good eggs no albinos , both bred by visual albinos? I don't think so man.

The neutral part was a very nice person , I appreciate his help.

Like I said I have snakes that cost me THOUSANDS that STILL have yet to lay anything, maybe they never will, but you don't see me asking for money from the breeders that sold them since no profit has come out of them yet and in some cases ALOT of time has now passed without ANY eggs... And if an Ivory isn't produced when they finally do lay and the numbers don't yield an Ivory right away from a female that looks like it's a true YB will you see me on here complaining to those guys for ripping me off all that time and $$, nope........

That is absolutely stupid Anthony. A Yb is a visual het for Ivory , 95% of the time you should be able to pick them out. A Het albino is not a visual het.

You wouldn't be mad , not what you told me .... You told me you received 3 adult female Ybs from a breeder in Florida . One you didn't think could be , and if it didn't make Ivories , you were going to have a problem with him.


All of us have opinions as to how to settle this, frankly this is really between Derek and I , he decided to inform everyone this way and I told him from the start that we could settle it without going thru this.. I told him I would make it right either way, without blabbing things that still aren't conclusive , it may seem clearcut to some but it still isn't. This just takes up time and in alot of ways gets things turned upside down and takes things off in directions that have nothing to do with the original matter at hand...

No you didn't Anthony , you said something you wanted to do , I didnt want to. I had enough of your calling and trying to intimidate me , bragging about all sorts of stuff.

Anthony you opened the doors to my responses here . You wanted to bring it all up , I will respond back with the truth.

Seems clear to me that I don't have a het.

Takes up time sure , if everyone wants to know why I don't want your animals and why i don't want to deal with you , I will tell them based on experiences , and things you have told me.

Derek can call the person he talked to last night and get this resolved, since he doesn't talk to me on emails or over the phone..

No , he is nice guy , and he did offer some help , but I told you what you owe me and I am standing on that.


Derek is also failing to mention the dozens of hours I have spent talking to him about Ball Pythons, the many sometimes late night hours that DIDN'T involve buying anything at all from me . Hours of MY time that I gave him my knowledge for free as I thought he appreciated an honest professional opinion of the Balls and it's market.. He is new to this and I was helping him the best way I knew how... DOES this really sound like I was scamming him ? He recently decided to treat me this way by going to the BOI before I could work anything out or come up with another solution just "in case" we really did have an issue with that "het" and has now turned this into something that was avoidable. He may be a customer , but I also deserve some respect too, especially since I was trying to help settle things the entire time ..


Well , I didn't know the only reason I could call a breeder is to buy something.

How much do you charge Anthony ? I appreciate your help , but that is not an excuse to haul off treat me like garbage , and lie to me.

A lot , of it was bp talk. The bad out weighed the good.

Laura Fopiano mentioned she would hear me talking about him . Laura can you remember how long ago it was I stopped that . From my recollection about a year ago. I slowly started to get sick and tired of him and everything he had to say about every breeder and listen to the same stuff over and over.

Anthony if your professional opinion is blasting every breeder in the nation , because they don't do everything you like . Then no I didn't appreciate it.

There is a list of breeders.

From the first phone call Anthony , you told me , that you weren't gonna do this and weren't gonna do that. Fine , I gave you a chance in the emails.

I don't want you Mystics , or any other animal from you.

Its all gonna come out Anthony , you know what you said to me on the phone.

Derek told me the day of "our" clutch hatching out it's babies that another well known breeder sold him a female Het and she also produced ZERO albinos for Derek as well , she was sold as a "het" as well. I wonder if he told "that breeder" he wanted a pile of $$ too for lost albinos/time???? Wonder how they are working it out? It's all everyones business on here now , right?? Similiar issue, how should that issues be resolved , I would think it sounds just like this one. I know Derek wouldn't be trying to get something from people by being dishonest about things, he's a christian and I doubt he would do that, he's always told me the facts ... I didn't ask for the adult Het back as I generally trust what someone tells me unless I have reason to doubt their word.


Thats between me and that breeder , and the difference is I trust him , he didn't just throw and offer in my face ,and tell me to take it. He has a much better rep than you. He didn't just try to "put me to the side"

If he wanted to come here and say something , he can , Im not gonna make him , because it doesn't matter.



I have a solid reputation in this industry for producing investment animals , nothing less.. Derek knows this , yet continues to trash my name, not very cool I don't think.. Most people would NOT go out of their way at this point for someone like Derek, especially not after being treated like this and trying to resolve things before it even got to this......... As for asking for an apology , your right , I would HOPE he would apologize for the things he's said in the end , I know I would for anything I said, that's ALWAYS the right thing to do, the way men should handle things..


No I don't know this. Everyone I talk to doesn't want to do business with you .

Show me where you tried to resolve anything that didn't involve you just throwing something in my face before this.

I will not apologize for telling the truth .


I'd rather not continue on here with this, I've said my side.... He will need to either email me or contact the person he spoke with yesterday. I have a sizeable collection to tend to , I do this by myself on a respectable scale, I simply don't type 75 words/ minute and can't work on my animals from a computer, it's vital that I keep up on the rest of my business as well, afterall they are Live animals, not machines or coins. I will address the matter when Derek is able to work with either myself or a neutral person , and will handle this for good at that time .... Anthony..

Yes it will be handled.



Derek

 

[Fedawg]

Folks ,

I just received 3 emails from Anthony McCain. In these emails , Anthony is afraid I am going to edit them and lie in them. Not true , but since he is scared, I will not post them.

If you want them posted Anthony you can. I will not post them.

Thanks

Derek

 

[Ed Clark]

Derek, has this been resolved between Anthony and yourself?

Folks ,

I just received 3 emails from Anthony McCain. In these emails , Anthony is afraid I am going to edit them and lie in them. Not true , but since he is scared, I will not post them.

If you want them posted Anthony you can. I will not post them.

Thanks

Derek

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

So is anthony going to send you that mystic ball for free derek?

If you dont want that animal, why dosnt he just sell it for the price hes saying it is, and just give you that cash. Then, you dont have to take his animal, and he is still out one ball, and you are compensated.

 

[Fedawg]

No Ed it has not been resolved.

The only way I will show someone else , is I will talk to someone on here I trust , and they can read them directly off Hotmail using my password. This is the only way I will do it , so we can avoid any accusations of email altering/editing.

I am not even sure of the point of the emails , they don't even make sense. Anthony left me a voice message after I got these at 4:08Pm today saying " I better check them out" not sure why.
Everything he said in them he could have said here . I will not respond back to emails or calls , as I want everything said on here , so there is no one telling me they just have to take my word.

thanks Derek

 

[RaccoonRiverReptiles]

I just corresponded with Anthony beings i am in his area and he has informed me that is logged out of faunaclassifieds.com and hasn't yet got his password reset. He has said that if anyone is interested in the emails that Derek won't post you can contact him at [email protected] to have them forwarded directly to anyone concerned. Anthony told me and i qoute "Derek knows exactly what i mean in all three of those emails, i clearly stated to derek the reason why i emailed him directly today. Also, he said you need to check your other email account as i have been emailing you more than your admitting to." For the record Anthony says the 3 emails are where intended to present Anthony's final decision in this matter and Derek knows this, hence the reason he is afraid to post it." Anthony said, " Good luck to you man."

Anthony talked to me on the phone as i typed so please don't direct anything torwards me, Jason Kirtley, because this is just a message i relayed for Anthony and really don't know what the heck is going on, but it does seem as though Derek is dragging this on a lot longer than it needs to be. I've been ripped off mulitple times and none of the people that did it even offered an alternate snake or to make it right, so by him even returning emails and offering expensive snakes in replacement is extending an olive branch to me, but what do i know, i breed boas and geckos so let the Ball python gods sort it out!!! Thanks Jason Kirtley

 

[Jim O]

I will not respond back to emails or calls , as I want everything said on here , so there is no one telling me they just have to take my word.

Derek, I understand your frustration, but as multiple people have said, Anthony is at least trying to make this right which is far more than what many others would be doing and have done.

May I politely suggest that you cool off for a few days and attempt to negotiate with Anthony again, privately, via email? I agree that telephone conversation is not the best way to settle the issue, as they can always be described differently (and are often remembered and interpreted differently) by the two parties. Insisting that all "negotiating" be done publicly while you are angry is a sure way for things to go south.

Understand that if you go the legal route, you are not likely to recover any more than replacement value and then you would need to return the animal in question. Most small claims judges will not be knowledgeable enough on ball pythons and their values for you to be awarded anything for the lost opportunity that you are claiming. In light of that, Anthony's offers may well be the very best that you are going to do for yourself. It will also be here for future customers to judge him on.

 

[DaveyFig]

Oh, boy am I gonna get a talking to in fauna chat tonight!
Given that there are people that think that sperm retention is a possibility in this scenario, and that it is so common in this industry to use different pairings every year, it is a wonder that anyone believes anyones animals are 100% het, unless they came from virgin females, or were only bred by other males with the same genetics.

I would think that if sperm retention played a role in this case then some of the babies would have expressed the codominant mutaion said to be expressed by the other possible father.However, there weren't, otherwise the babies from that litter would not have been sold as 100% het albinos, right? I think Anthony sold those animals the same way anyone would have that produced animals with a homozygous father, from a mother that was bred by something the year before...as 100% het for albino.

8 animals were produced, none of them were albino. That is a case bad numbers, but not unheard of. I think a second breeding needs to be done to confirm whether the female is a het or not. Another breeding by a homozygous animal would lend some evidence I would think, and that brings me to something many probably wont agree with.

I think that Anthony should buy back the animal for the purchase price of $650, as would be standard for something that was proven not to be what it was, but he would still be able to prove it out. If he proves it out then he has saved some time on raising up a het female. If it doesn't prove out, he has bought back a poorly priced normal for the price he sold it for.

In Dereks own words he says that with or without the female from Athony, he would have produced hets. How many though? Last I read, ball clutches from virgin females average 4 eggs. The numbers shined in Dereks favor when he got 8, and were dimmed by the lack of albinos. However, if you are going to base monetary value on hypotheticals, and "What shoulda happened", then you have to take that female completely out of the equation and insert an average female.
The actual clutch consisted of 8 eggs, all 100% het albino.
the hypothetical would produce 4 eggs, 2 albino, 2 het.
Lets split sexes evenly as is always done in hypotheticals.
One litter has 4.4 hets with male hets values at $75 each (300), and 4 female hets at $350 each(1400) for a total of $1700
the other has 1 albino male at $750, one albino female at 900, one het male at $75, and a het female at $350. for a total of $2075

The price difference between the 2 is $375.
Some may think it is unfair to reduce the number by half in equating the value of an actual het breeding, but I am doing it for an average clutch. The clutch of 8 is above average. It is also just as likely that the hypothetical het would produce no albinos, but I am trying to toss out the weird variables for this hypothetical.

Basically what I am trying to say is that at this point it is too unclear about the gentics of the mother of Dereks litter to come to the conclusion that Derek is owed what he says he is owed. I only see 2 realistic options here.

I sure am typing a lot, I wonder if anyone is reading!

A)Derek sends back the female to Anthony for the $650 he paid for her, keeping only the babies she produced in her above average first litter, and giving up the high production (normal) he thinks he has

B)Derek keeps her another year to prove that she is in fact a normal, taking the chance that he will produce albinos and this was a fluke year. He still has the high production female, and continues to make hets with her, but taking that chance costs him another year, and he would still only be compensated for the $650 he spent in the first place, because the 2 litters of hets produced by a normal will cover the cost of the female(since she has already paid for herself with the first litter), and cover the time he spent raising her (from sub adult) and producing 2 litters.

$650 dollars is what he paid for a het. Until it is proven to not be a het, $650 should be the value refunded.If he proves it to be a het, I doubt he will ask for a refund then!

As for the het stripes? Buyers remorse is a pain in the butt. Until they are proven to be something other than what they were sold as, thats what this is, buyers remorse.
Not liking the way someone treats people is not a reason to demand a refund in my eyes.


Derek, if you whole heartedly believe that the animal you have is not a het, you should take the $650 dollars, and hit the door ruunning. That is what you paid.That is what you should get. She did produce, and the animals produced cover what you have put into her since you got her. Any animal you would have gotten instead of her would have cost the same to raise up, feed, and house. Those aren't expenses you can recover.
There is no quarantee that a different animal would have produced anything for you at all. As far as your time...I lived 29 years of my life without owning a ball python...guess what? 29 years passed anyway. You don't get compensated for time. Time you put into the animal , if that is what you are refering to, as stated above would have been put into any animal that was in that enclosure.

If on the other hand, you think there is even a slight chance she is a het and you had bad odds, you better hold onto her. She would be much more valuable to you if she produced albinos for you, and then you could use her for combos in the future.If you take the $650 though, you should have to send her back, and you will lose out on that oportunity .It is upto you to decide whether you want to make the $650 dollar gamble though.Until you have more concrete proof (another clutch), you can't say that anyone is trying to screw you over. Anthony's offers have been more than fair. I would think that by keeping the babies, anything over $650 is above and beyond.
You would be lucky to get $650 plus shipping, and a tootsie pop elsewhere.

I have never talked to Anthony, and have actually never heard of him, and yeah, he does come across as an A-hole, but a business minded a-hole trying hard to keep his reputation about his quality, and integrity rather than by kissing bums. Being brand spanking new to ball, I will probably know all about ANthony, and other I don't know in the near future. I have read nothing here that will dissuade me from doing business with him, and if he ever has something I can afford, I may just have to email him!

I think I am done!

 

[DaveyFig]

OK, I think I am going to have to slightly modify my stance here. At first I thought it would be a good idea to offer the $650 and be done. Now, I think it might be better to hold all offers until a second clutch is produced. Nothing has really been proven yet, and I did see a post earlier of another clutch Derek produced, using 2 males. It was premature for me to suggest that the offer be made anyway, one breeding doesn't prove anything, unless there are albinos produced, then you know the het is a het.
Now, I am not saying Derek used more than one male to produce the litter in question, it just helped me come to the conclusion that in the begining I should have just said wait for another breeding before deciding on what to do.
I think after next season, if no albinos are produced, then it is safe to assume that it is not a het, and the $650 refund should be given.