****Anthony McCain BAD , STAy Away****

[RJK890]

Neutral Third Party

May I suggest another alternative. I am willing to have Derrick ship the "supposed het/non-het" here to me to be proven or disproved this coming season.
If the female in question proves out Anthony will get the proven het, and a public apology from Derrick. I will keep all of the offspring.
Should she not produce any Albino's Anthony can send Derrick an 06' female Albino, and the $650 that he paid for the then proven "normal" female. Again I will keep the offspring, as well as the high production normal female.
I know what you are thinking. What a nice guy to offer this solution and make such a personal sacrifice to help our community.
You're right, I am truly a "Good Guy"

 

[mykee]

After reading Davey's post, I completely, 100% whole-heartedly agree with his reasoning. I feel that Anthony has gone above and beyond regarding this deal. It seems that nothing short of getting a load of cash, all the animals produced and a back-rub while receiving a very public apology from the highest mountaintop from Anthony will make this buyer happy.
Though I do not necessarily agree with Anthony's business practices in general, he has done everything he can to make this wrong, right. Some people just expect way too much.

 

[Fedawg]

I just corresponded with Anthony beings i am in his area and he has informed me that is logged out of faunaclassifieds.com and hasn't yet got his password reset. He has said that if anyone is interested in the emails that Derek won't post you can contact him at [email protected] to have them forwarded directly to anyone concerned. Anthony told me and i qoute "Derek knows exactly what i mean in all three of those emails, i clearly stated to derek the reason why i emailed him directly today. Also, he said you need to check your other email account as i have been emailing you more than your admitting to." For the record Anthony says the 3 emails are where intended to present Anthony's final decision in this matter and Derek knows this, hence the reason he is afraid to post it." Anthony said, " Good luck to you man."

Anthony talked to me on the phone as i typed so please don't direct anything torwards me, Jason Kirtley, because this is just a message i relayed for Anthony and really don't know what the heck is going on, but it does seem as though Derek is dragging this on a lot longer than it needs to be. I've been ripped off mulitple times and none of the people that did it even offered an alternate snake or to make it right, so by him even returning emails and offering expensive snakes in replacement is extending an olive branch to me, but what do i know, i breed boas and geckos so let the Ball python gods sort it out!!! Thanks Jason Kirtley

Folks im not afraid to post anything. I will not post if I am being accused of editing emails . The only stars in the first emails were to block out ppls names that have no need to be involved, but Anthony decided to bring them in. If Anthony wants to bring them in , I am sure they will have something to say about this.

I had one college email address that I don't use anymore , so you can stop emailing it. He sent one of the same emails to this address as the others. Telling me " I am not admitting to everyone how much he has emailed me " doesn't matter because its the same emails all around.

Anthony himself has esteemed this snake as a normal. We have seen how the sister also didn't produce albinos. I don't see why re breeding the snake is necessary.

Jason , I'm sorry you never were offered anything multiple times. Just because Anthony looks around at others who have sold bad hets , and says , "hey at least im doing better than that guy" doesn't make it ok.

I am not afraid of you Anthony , and Im not afraid emails beings posted , I'm here and not going ANYWHERE. I am ready to speak the truth to anyone who asks or to those who just want to read it, and the truth will come out.

I have been waiting for Anthony's password to be reset , so he can come back and post. If anything is going to be said its going to be said on here.

Anthony , your story and you babbling changes with the amount of ppl who agree with you. Im not going anywhere . You have posted more lies Anthony than anything else.

If you don't think I was seeing what you were trying to do with calling me and saying "better check those emails " and "go ahead post them" . Yet you are afraid I am going to edit them. I can see right through you Anthony.

You also want to tell me to to stay far , far, away from your booth in Chicago. If you don't like me walking by your booth , go home , Ill walk where I feel like walking.

Im here and ready for when your password gets reset , to explain anything in any email , and Im not going anywhere.

On Friday August 3rd at 4:08 pm you called my cell phone. I told you multiple time to stop calling it , if you do again I am calling to the authorities.

If you think your gonna intimidate , think again. If you think by screaming and yelling , telling me a bunch of garbage in emails , and calling my phone is gonna "scare " me away , keep going . The truth is gonna come out.

I'm not going anywhere.

thanks again all

Derek

 

[DaveyFig]

Let me see if I can say this in a shorter post, so that those who may have chosen to skip my book can get the Readers Digest version.
In this case, it doesn't matter if Anthony is a meanie. I think it is fair to warn people about the attitudes of people they may deal with, so that they can make a decision based on that, if nothing else is available. It is not fair to to try to extort money from someone because you think they are mean. Prove that those het stripes aren't hets, and we will see you back here when you have those ducks in a row.
Derek, Anthony is not a bad guy because he doesn't want to give you $6k. If Anthony is a bad guy, it is because he sold a het that isn't a het. (IF IT ISN'T A HET!)
He may be rude, I don't know, haven't heard his tone, or seen the look in his eye.
If the animal is a het, you should get $650 back. After the next breeding, you should know.
Maybe you just didn't want to dignify my jibberish with a response, or just missed it in my post. Either way, I will ask you now.
Did you use multiple males in this breeding, as you did with the laser and spider breeding?

 

[SPJ]

Derek, try breeding her a second time to only a visual albino.
If she does not produce again, then you have 2 consecutive breedings that ended up with only normals. Then you will have a much better case against Anthony to say that this is indeed a normal and not a het.
To be honest, sending you the $650 would be expected if she was not what you bought her as. The genetics are guarenteed or a full refund. Time and food unfortunately are not guarenteed.
As far as the het genetic stripes are concerned, right now there is no proof that they are not what you bought them as. I have to agree that a refund on those animals is not warrented as much as you do not trust him or the genetics right now. There must be some common ground that the 2 of you can reach to settle this.

 

[SPJ]

How was that situation resolved with the other het that didn't prove out for you. Maybe this can be resolved in a similiar fashion. Sort of mirror how that was handled so you and Anthony can come to an resolution.

From the looks of the way this thread has been going, it doesn't seem like you guys will be able to work anything out without some type of reference to begin with.

Best of luck to both of you.

This is not going to be easy to settle.

 

[Jim O]

Derek,

I suggested the other day that you take a few steps back and look at the situation again. Evidently that didn't sink in either. So I'll suggest it again. The tide in this thread is against you. Most people here believe that despite his purported demeanor, Anthony has made a fair effort to resolve the current situation. You are the one acting like a hot-head and making demands that are unreasonable, particularly with respect to the het stripes. The longer that you continue this unreasonable behavior, the less likely that you are to be believed that you produced no striped animals if in fact you make that claim in the coming year(s). Keep that in mind. I know that I would be suspicious of your motives if you made that claim next year (based solely on my opinion of your behavior here). Consider that as you go forward.

 

[Fedawg]

Did you use multiple males in this breeding, as you did with the laser and spider breeding?

Nope,

I have pics of the clutch , and of the albino breeding her. I can PM them to you , or post them here if anyone wants.

It is not uncommon in ball python breeding to use multiple co-dom or dom males to breed normal females.

thanks

Derek

 

[SPJ]

Nope,

I have pics of the clutch , and of the albino breeding her. I can PM them to you , or post them here if anyone wants.

It is not uncommon in ball python breeding to use multiple co-dom or dom males to breed normal females.

thanks

Derek

But if you are trying to prove out a het, you don't use any other animals. That could mess it up for you. One of the other animals may get the female gravid and you won't know if the het is a het.

 

[Fedawg]

But if you are trying to prove out a het, you don't use any other animals. That could mess it up for you. One of the other animals may get the female gravid and you won't know if the het is a het.

Steve

I never said I used co-dom males to the het albino female.

Password reset yet Anthony?




Derek

 

[mickeysnightmare]

I've known Derek for awhile now & have always known him to be honest and fair. I have several snakes from his collection and know everything that there is to know to about them including one which was a non-feeder when I purchased. It has been said that he has had problems with his animals. We all do from time to time. I have operated the ICU for the sick, injured & the non-feeders since 2004. I have a great sucess rate with these problems, working with many animals from well known breeders confidentially. This is why Derek called me when his collection had some hydration problems due to a move just prior to attending the Daytona Reptile Show. I sent him the Taheebo(more info on my site) to soak them, all snakes made a wonderful recovery & not even as much as a lost breed. We all have problems & it's how we handle them that makes us the kind of person that one can trust. I have animals in my collection now that he had during that time & they are all very healthy. I owed Derek snakes that was part of a trade deal on the non-feeder WC & since I was having poor luck to start with Derek said don't worry about the females. I told him that I knew what I was getting into & his females were sent. The male did pick up & was a 1000g and bred last year. Fake hets upset anyone for instance TSE, then not to be treated with respect as in Anthony Mccain . I consider Derek one of my friends & our friendship is proven by mutual respect & honesty.

Good Luck Derek,

 

[Fedawg]

Thanks for the kind words Jane

 

[mykee]

Looks like the tide has turned.......

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

any words to say on this anthony? Are you going to give him any sort of refund here? What will that be?

Derek, any word from him at this point?

 

[DaveyFig]

Looks like the tide has turned.......

I don't see a change in the tide at all. I don't think anyone ever questioned Derek's integrity, or his business practices. I think everyone pretty much agrees that Derek is a good guy. What was in question was the demands he made. You don't have to be a bad guy to expect too much.
I think that one part does need to be answered though. Someone asked above how the other deal Derek had with a het that didn't prove out was resolved. I think that is very important to this situation, although some may down play that.
I think that if it was resolved with demands that were not even in the same ballpark as those posted here, then something is wrong.
If Derek settled for the purchase price of that animal, or somewhere around that, then it shows that this thing between him and Anthony is part of a personal agenda, rather than fair compensation. If he wants to hurt Anthony financially because he got his feelings hurt by some things Anthony said, then in my opinion it's not right. I still belive that Derek is intitled to a full refund of the purchase price, once he has proven that the animal is not a het. That hasn't happened yet.
What was the resolution for the other het that didn't prove out , Derek?

 

[mykee]

Ahhh.......yeah, I was kidding..........
Guess you couldn't see the smirk on my face...

 

[mickeysnightmare]

My name is Ray Whited, my wife Jane owns and operates Mickey's Nightmare. I have never spoken to nor met

Anthony McCain. I will vouch for Derek's integrity and that he is a good guy, although this is not the

issue in this thread. The issues are just compensation in this case and the business practices of Anthony

Mccain.

In this trade, everyone's goals & motivations are as unique & time sensitive as morphs & prices. If Derek

resolved the other het issue, it has no bearing upon the unique transaction at issue.
Perhaps Bob Clark should have settled for purchase price in the stolen albino case

http://www.bobclark.com/news.asp?id=97 but the courts did not see it that way holding that fair

compensation of financial liability extended to possible progeny. Misrepresentation of an animals

genetics is fraud, according to filings by the NY Attorney General against Christopher Johnson of TSE

fame, where the plantiffs would love to recover even the purchase price. So clearly there are possible

case specific legal issues here. I hope the misepresentation was not deliberate, but did occur, and

liability rests upon Anthony. If Derek wanted only to harm Anthony financially, he would have filed a

lawsuit instead of starting a thread. The "ballpark" could go the direction of the Clark case,

considering time frames and clutch values.

The specific issue is a 100 het albino female, admitted normal, that required time and upkeep to raise to

breeding size while albinos have fallen in price. Derek tried to negotiate an acceptable solution before

this thread was posted. Anthony's reputation in this area is tarnished, at best. What Anthony said is

part of this, as threats add additional issues (and possibly charges) while honesty & respect will help

resolve issues like these.

Anthony has an opportunity to resolve this professionally & politely earning respect & positive

reputation worth more than any minor financial loss on this specific transaction. Recessive Het value is

a reflection of faith in the breeder, so what is the value of all future recessive hets from Anthony?

Thank you
Ray Whited
www.mickeysnightmare.com

 

[SPJ]

I don't see how you can say this is not related to how another situation was settled and where you can see that Anthoiny admitted it being a normal.
Did Derek get anything close to what he is asking for from Anthony from the other seller?
One breeding does not prove/disprove a het so right now the genetics are still not proven one way or another.
Modeling a settlement with regards to how a different but apparently identical situation would speed the resolution between Anthony and Derek.
Another breeding to a visual is needed IMO before this animal can be considered a normal.
I think myself and everyone else reading this are just trying to help get this resolved without playing favorites.
This isn't Anthony is bad or Derek is bad. It's about an animal that was bought as a het that didn't produce a visual with the first breeding. That could have just been bad odds. A second breeding is in order. Also, the compensation originally offered is more than fair IMO. To expect the thousands of dollars in cash because of one unsuccessful breeding is a bit extreme no matter how nice Derek is. I just don't think he is entitled to that much.
Heck, if he could get what he wants, great, but it's just not going to be settled that way according to Anthony so some type of fair middle ground settlement needs to be made.


I think it all boils down to this.

1.Derek needs to do a second breeding to a visual before he can conclusively say it's not a het.

2.If in fact it prove to not be a het after another breeding, then some type of fair settlement by Anthony to Derek needs to be made. Fair to both since it does not appear that Anthony purposely sold a bad het.

 

[Gecko_Den]

Perhaps Bob Clark should have settled for purchase price in the stolen albino case http://www.bobclark.com/news.asp?id=97 but the courts did not see it that way holding that fair compensation of financial liability extended to possible progeny.

Misrepresentation of an animals genetics is fraud, according to filings by the NY Attorney General against Christopher Johnson of TSE fame, where the plantiffs would love to recover even the purchase price. So clearly there are possible case specific legal issues here.

I hope the misepresentation was not deliberate, but did occur, and liability rests upon Anthony. If Derek wanted only to harm Anthony financially, he would have filed a lawsuit instead of starting a thread.

You are comparing Apples and Oranges. In the Clark case it was proven that the animals were stolen and damages were awarded based on that ruling.

In the TSE case, there may have been a filing but no jury/judge heard any evidence regarding genetics and nothing related to genetics was settled in or out of court.

As for any potential lawsuit by Derek, it has not been proven that the female is not a Het. And odds are that Derek would have a hard time securing a similar settlement as Clark considering there has only been one breeding with the female in question, and while I don't think Derek is a liar, you can bet an opposing attorney would try to make him look like one. What proof does Derek have that the breeding was done under the conditions he stated, you can bet an attorney would want to know and one worth half a grain of salt could inject enough doubt to ruin any chance Derek would have of winning in court..

 

[DaveyFig]

Apples to Apples

Ray, I understand what you are saying for the most part, but don't really agree. Given that both female "hets" were bred this year producing all wild type babies, then the time sensitivity basis for compensation offset argument is pretty much out the window. My understanding was that the breeding took place relatively close together, so I don't think I am wrong in thinking that Derek should be asking the same compensation from Anthony that he asked of the other seller.This breeding paralleled the other, so why (other than Anthony's attitude) is a different set of demands being made here?

The specific issue is a 100 het albino female, admitted normal, that required time and upkeep to raise to

breeding size while albinos have fallen in price.

I really don't see anywhere that Anthony admitted that the animal was a normal. I see Derek's twist on the wording in Anthony's email, that was probably not an intentional twist, nor a rational one given Derek's anger.
From what I see, Anthony was trying to weigh both sides, and mentioning that the value of the hets produced, coupled with the market value of a normal female(If Derek were to sell her right now, that is what he would call her, having not proven her out yet being so sure that she is a normal) more than covers the investment in the animal, that still has not been disprove.
Did you come to the conclusion that Anthony was admitting that it was a normal on your own, having read the rest of the thread, or did you just talk to Derek? If Derek told you that Anthony admitted it, I can see why you would think that Anthony admitted it, but think that anyone who read the "admission" in its context, and with an open mind can see that there was no admission.

BTW, Ray and Jane,If you don't think too little of me because of my posts, Maybe you could help me with a mouthrot issue one of my boas has.