Aprylla Hall - Bad Guy

[Borewyrm]

Wow what a long thread.
....... I would sell his snakes to someone else and keep his d@mn money.

Then you would be a thief, and I would be embarrassed if your avatar is a current photo of you.

Look there is just to damn much information for me to sift through, I don't think there was malice intended on either side. While the buyer seems to be getting a bit jumpy, I can understand why. His snakes are dead and him money spent! And yes there are extenuating circumstances. Like I said before, I hope that this can be resolved quickly.

 

[Sasheena]

Shawn the problem is that Aprylla answered your questions very solidly, especially as regards the inability to ship out your snakes to you, and you kept asking the same question regarding why she didn't do it, and when you posted your thought process it seemed to be ignoring the relevent information she gave you. In retrospect do you not see where, in the emails you provided us, she explained that Fed-Ex wasn't open for business? followed up by your continued asking the same blessed thing? And while I can understand that some people who have never evacuated and run for their lives cannot appreciate the fact that one does not take shipping supplies with them while evacuating, can you not, perhaps, in retrospect, see that this is an unreasonable expectation on your part?

Bottom line is this... you paid. THAT is good. But now you have to ask yourself: What do you really want? The animals or the money? If you REALLY want the animals that Aprylla can provide, which means you will trust her to provide the animals she said she would provide (CB, Feeding, Female), then lift the complaint. She has a history of being a good guy here on the BOI. If you don't trust her enough to lift the complaint, then wait for the paypal refund.

Yes, in general it was wrong of her to spend the money when she hadn't yet provided you with the animals in question. Frankly, if I was in a severe emergency situation, I might do that too, if I had no other source of money and I needed to feed my family, or tow my car if I was stranded on the side of the road, or save the lives of my animals. I would KNOW it was wrong, I would feel BAD, I would want to make restitution as fast and as soon as possible, and I would express that to the "wronged" individuals as soon as could be. (which Aprylla did)... And I would expect in the face of a natural disaster a little bit of compassion and leniency. If I had no good reputation at all, no history here, I would expect you to be VERY nervous, but if I have a good strong history on the BOI with good guy posts etc, I would expect you to rest easy knowing that everything should be fine.

 

[Crested Lady]

I know that Aprylla has had a lot to deal with lately. Let's face it, moving everything because of a hurricane cannot be easy.

One thing I've learned since I've been breeding and selling geckos is that you NEVER spend the money until a transaction is completely finished. Many people are slapping at the buyer here for "jumping the gun", however I do not believe that he is doing so. As someone stated before $450 is a big chunk of change for some people. If it was my money and I felt that something shady was going on (not saying that Aprylla is shady...just that the buyer felt that something weird was going on), I would file a PayPal complaint as well.

The fact is, the customer has already paid. Right now, he's got no money, and no snakes. Aprylla is rightfully worried that he won't lift the PayPal complaint after the transaction is completed b/c of a problem with a previous customer. However, I do not feel that the buyer should be held responsible for another's actions. What it looks like to me is that the seller is basically holding the snakes/money (whichever he decides he wants) hostage...which in my opinion is wrong. The seller should send one or the other (money or snakes), and the buyer should, upon completion of the transaction, immediately lift the complaint.

It looks simple enough to me.

 

[Sasheena]

Aprylla contends that this thread was started AFTER she contacted Paypal and requested that he be granted a full refund. She is not holding ANYTHING hostage. However with her paypal account tied up, paypal is requiring everything be done via the "inchworm" method.... SLOOOOOOOW. As long as her account is tied up by the claim, it will take a long time for the whole mess to be resolved. Right now all of this verbage is simply happening while waitinf for paypal to take their sweet time (something they are very much known for) and pay him back. She contends that paypal instructed her to email them with the request for the refund for her customer. Her account is tied up in some tiny little knot that doesn't allow for the easy "refund customer" button that a lot of people think she should push. If it was available to her, she would have pushed it. If he hadn't said he wanted the snakes, she woould have pushed it before he made his claim. But he wanted the snakes, and when she wouldn't also give up her wholesale source, he went and tied up her account in knots with the claim. Now could he have known he was going to tie her up in such knots when he made the claim, no I doubt that, but now that the knots are there the only choice is to wait it out, or remove the claim and get the refund right away. He has stated that he does not trust her enough to remove the complaint, so in aboiut thirty days, paypal will give him his money back and all will be well. Will she be thirty days worse a bad guy for having to wait for paypal to go through it's hoops? Some will think so.

YES it was wrong to spend the money on animals she hadn't yet shipped, but it was an EMERGENCY. She HAD to spend the money. She had no other choice, and she already made plans to get rid of some of her own prized possessions in order to compensate the buyer above and beyond his original investment of money.

YES the buyer deserves his money or his snakes. Aprylla has done what she can to set the refund in motion, before this whole thread began.

As far as Shawns' contention that Paypal hasn't informed him of this refund-pending.... they NEVER do that. I made a claim and two weeks later I got an email saying "here's your cash"... they won't say ANYTHING about the claim, they won't say what the other person told them, why the claim was granted, nothing like that. Just "notice of closure" on the claim and what it means to YOU.

 

[pch101]

Sorry I had to be away for the entire day, but some of us do have jobs to go to that require our time. I have attempted to read all of the posts made throughout the day. pch101, I knew that no matter what came out you would take her side, possibly because I have never posted on any forum before and no one knows me, but talk about dissecting every item. Yes, there has been an explanation provided for everything that happened along the way, and all of it is logical, but again I ask, how many people would wait through seemingly unending problems and leave themselves unprotected? I believe Terese's perception comes closest to what was going through my mind- since pch101 want to dissect thing, let's do that.
1. What is not in dispute- I DID pay in full for the transaction entered into.
2. Why were the snakes not shipped before she left?
Possible explanation - not enough time. Accepted.
3. Why were the snakes not shipped after she evacuated to the new location.
That was the question that I never got an answer to.
Possible explanation- too inconvenient from away from home. Accepted
Then things start to get suspicious
4. I am informed that some of the snakes I paid for had died.
Possible explanation- Her car broke down 90 miles from home.
Now I start to question- she told me she was evacuating to her mother's apartment. If she was 110 mile from home at her mother's apartment and 90 miles from home when she broke down, doesn't that mean she was only 20 miles from family? Why would it take a full day for assistance and cause the loss of life of so many animals?
(Please note: I am not proposing anything here, just posting out loud the thought process I was going through.)
5. I then receive notice that ALL the ball pythons died.
Starting to question again.
6. I receive notice that even though I have paid in full, I cannot get a refund for an extended period of time.
Now I am seriously beginning to question if this is a rip off that someone is stalling on.
7. The offer of replacement animals is also contingent upon a waiting period, even though they are supposed to be available from the breeder now.
Thought process- if she really has a long time working relationship with this breeder, and she was as trustworthy as she says, wouldn't he drop ship FOR her and bill her?
Thought process continues- this is import season, perhaps she made up the story of her animals dying and sold them for a higher price and is stalling to take a shipment of imports to replace them with.
8. So at this point, without "jumping the gun" or "making unreasonable demands" I ask if there is a contact number number for the breeder to verify that the replacement she is proposing are from him. (if she had this long standing wholesaler/retailer relationship with him, he would not violate it either)
9. The response I get states she will be away from her computer and unable to respond.
Thought process- this was not an unsolicited response "just in case I tried to get in touch with her", it was in direct response to a posed question to provide a verification that the NEW REPLACEMENTS were the same category of animals THE ORIGINAL ORDER was for.
Thought process continued- If she had simply not wanted to provide the number for her wholesale source wouldn't she say "I don't want to give out the number for may wholesale source" instead of "I will be away from my computer"
Nervousness is really beginning to set in.
10. At that point I explain that it is sounding like a scam and request a refund filing a complaint with PayPal..
11. She THEN provides the explanation that she doesn't want to give up her wholesale source.
12. I accept that explanation, but tell her as politely as possible that due to the numerous setbacks and inconsistencies I cannot in good judgement leave myself unprotected by canceling the complaint prior to receiving the animals.
Thought process- remember, when faced with a complaint through paypal she had the resolution choices of issue a refund or provide proof of shipment. She chose to mail a receipt and provide a USPS tracking number leading them to believe the ordered items had been shipped- another item that does little to gain my confidence and causes more concern that this has become very shady.
13. Research through PayPal reveals that a refund will only be made if there are funds in the seller's account to cover such a refund.
Thought process- she may be tempting me away from the complain to empty her account and simply never respond again. If I do that I will have no recourse left.
14. Aprylla then insists that she will not make shipment until AFTER the complaint has been cancelled.
This simply reinforces the last thought that she is trying to empty her account and leave me helpless. After all, I had sent payment in full in the first place. I had demonstrated SOME sort of trust by doing that. Now I was faced with someone who is treating ME as an untrustworthy individual and making demands on ME Before she would make ANY move to live up to her end of a deal that had already been made.
15. I informed her of my concern and assured her the complain would be canceled immediately upon receipt of the animals, and even offered to do continued business afterward as long as thing went as promised.
16. Her response was to not make shipment OR refund unless ordered through PayPal.
Thought process- if this was unacceptable to her, and there was over $600.00 in her PayPal account she could just hit the "Issue refund" button in the resolution center. Once resolved, her account would be free to send and receive money again and she would be free to do business as usual.
17. Her response was not to use the resolution center for a refund, but to send an e-mail to PayPal authorizing such (Which, by the way, I have never had independent confirmation from PayPal, only her and Damien's e-mail saying that they did it. And I have accepted it as the truth.)

The word "Paranoid" comes back into mind...

 

[Crested Lady]

Sasheena, even though it was an emergency... the money still should not have been touched. The money isn't hers until the transaction has been completed. I understand that the circumstances were beyond her control, however it shows irresponsibility on her part to not have some kind of bank account to dip into in case of an emergency. However, I'm not here to lecture on Aprylla's banking skills or lack thereof, I'm simply saying that the money is still the buyer's since she hasn't fulfilled her part of the bargain yet. (Once again, I do understand that a hurricane is beyond her control... but the fact is, she spent the money...money that isn't hers yet.)

I agree that PayPal does take their sweet time in handling issues. I had a problem a long time ago with a guy that sent me a dead gecko and PayPal just sat there, twiddling their thumbs. I eventually had to contact my credit card company and wait for everything to settle-out. Trust me, I know that PayPal has it's flaws.

The fact is, the money could have been returned by something as simple as a money order. Why should the buyer have to wait 2 weeks for a refund? It's not his fault... and the hurricane wasn't hers.... However, it looks to me as though the buyer is getting beat to death here when he really shouldn't be.

 

[Jim O]

Is everyone missing that Aprylla has ample funds in her PayPal account to make this right? The funds are there, just frozen.

 

[pch101]

"NOW there are a whole group of people that are "Jumping the gun" If you would please READ my last post post I STATED:"

You just quoted me as well. Does this mean that we are friends now also?


"I am not proposing anything here, just posting out loud what my though processes were"

I can't believe I am saying this, but you think too much.

One more time for all those that are not getting this.

He ACCEPTED her explainations, and requested replacment animals. She offered him a refund, and he insisted on the animals. They agreed on August 2nd as a date for him to receive the shipment, and things were still ok. He then proceeded to make the unreasonable request that Aprylla provide the whosaler's contact info. She said "no", and that she was leaving for ONE day, and would not be able to answer e-mails during that time. It was then and only then that he decided to file a complaint, and he filed it because he did not get his way when he requested the whosaler's info! Why did he not just tell her that he had changed his mind and that he just wants a refund. Once he filed the complaint after they agreed on a ship date, he proved himself to be UNTRUSTWORTHY. So, he is going to get a refund, and if it takes longer, it is his fault.

Aprylla, If he lifts the complaint, I would NOT ship him any snakes because you just cannot trust him. Just send him his refund as soon as the complaint is lifted, and sell your snakes to someone else. If you do send them to him you are making a very foolish mistake. Trust me on that one. Again, If he lifts the complaint, send him his refund right away. If he does not lift the complaint, then just wait for paypal to issue it to him. I would not normally make such a recomendation, but his thought processes are askew in my opinion.

 

[gila7150]

A lot of people are accusing the buyer in this case of jumping the gun. He only has a certain amount of time after the original purchase to file a complaint. Aprylla told him that he would get his snakes some time after August 2nd (I might be off on that date.) If he waited until sometime in August to see if she would follow through he would have no recourse with Paypal. I'm sympathetic of Aprylla's situation but her financial position is not Shawn's fault or responsibility.

As far as Shawns' contention that Paypal hasn't informed him of this refund-pending.... they NEVER do that.

Yes they do. I received notice of a "Refund Pending" the same day that the person I filed a complaint against issued my refund.

Is everyone missing that Aprylla has ample funds in her PayPal account to make this right? The funds are there, just frozen.

Jim, I'm fairly certain that her funds are only frozen to keep her from taking the money out or making additional purchases with her Paypal balance. Her funds are not frozen when it comes to sending a refund that would resolve a complaint filed against her.

 

[Jim O]

Jim, I'm fairly certain that her funds are only frozen to keep her from taking the money out or making additional purchases with her Paypal balance. Her funds are not frozen when it comes to sending a refund that would resolve a complaint filed against her.

Chris,

That is what Aprylla contends is the case. I have never had my account frozen so I cannot say whether it is so or not. In any event, she posted the e-mail where she authorized the refund. Unless you are prepared to call her and out and out liar I think that she has shown that she plans to follow through.

 

[critical bill]

I'm sympathetic of Aprylla's situation but her financial position is not Shawn's fault or responsibility.

Yikes....thats not a good thing to have in print if you sell live animals and live in an area prone to natures disasters. Someone might apply those same words to you in the event your name winds up on the BOI under fire for a situation beyond your control.

You sound sympathetic, but it appears your level of understanding is a bit retarded.

 

[pch101]

Chris, The buyer sent payment on 7-8-2005. Shawn had 45 days to file a complaint. Now if my math serves me correctly, that would give him until 8-23-2005 to file. That is 3 weeks of a time buffer from the agreed ship date to his deadline to file a complaint. I think 3 weeks is plenty of time to send an e-mail to paypal.

 

[pch101]

"I would sell his snakes to someone else and keep his d@mn money."

I am really glad you understand her situation, but I am starting to get the distinct impression that you do not always think about what you are saying...

 

[gila7150]

Jim,
I missed Aprylla's post with the email. I wasn't trying to insinuate that she is a liar (and I don't believe she is). I was just suggesting that she may be misinformed since I received a Paypal refund and immediate notice of a pending refund from a seller while a complaint/investigation was under way.

Chuck,
Her financial problems were not caused by the hurricane. The hurricane may have indirectly been the cause of the animals dying but she would have been in the same position if the animals had died during shipping. We all go through rough times but it's difficult to do good business if you don't have atleast a little financial cushion to take care of unexpected problems or atleast have the ability to hold the buyers money until everyone is happy.

James,
My mistake...I thought it was 30 days which would have cut it a little close.
If that's the case then I would have given her the chance to follow through before filing the complaint.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Not taking sides (I hope)..

I haven't read every post either, but a few things have caught my attention as stated or alluded to by others. So, in no particular order, IMO:

1) Extraordinary circumstances created a situation that caused the original deal and expectations to fall apart, leading to genuine concern on the part of the buyer. He took what seemed prudent action at the time.

2) With Paypal as the intermediary, that recourse unfortunately incurs more than what might be called a simple "stop payment", and those Paypal policies are now part of the mix.

3) Best laid plans are usually not equipped to handle when two (or more) things go bad at the same time. In this instance, we ended in a bit of a Mexican stand-off.

4) That Aprylla bears responsibility because she was "irresponsible" for not having more money tucked elsewhere is not relevent, and many of us don't think it irresponsible. She just doesn't have much money right now.

5) To say that Aprylla has been paid and has the money is also not quite true. PayPal has the money, if I read the thread correctly, and I believe that the buyer exerts more influence over its disposition at this point than the seller.

6) Invoking a "right to do something" never answers the fundamental question of whether it was the "right" thing to do. I don't see a single choice made here by either party that didn't have a downside attached. In some cases, there weren't any great choices, and dilemmas were faced.

7) I try to do my thinking-out-loud in the kitchen. Doing it in the BOI has its risks.

8) Any attorney will tell you that problems and compromises are worked out in back room negotiations, not in full court, where the temperature goes up. Full court is only for when the back rooms fail, and someone must be force-fed a solution. I do not fault the buyer for beginning the thread, as his concerns were very good at the time. Aprylla has all of my sympathies. I would highly recommend that they continue communicating in private emails, with maybe the first goal be to find a third party to act as a non-binding arbitor. I do not have the time, sorry. Much has been said here to help provide insight. I do not know how easy it will be to work something out, except that it will likely be easier than in this forum.

If the parties involved want this thread to continue on the BOI, I have no complaints about seeing it up here for a week or more. Its your party.

Jim Flaherty
The Chameleon Company, LLC

 

[pch101]

"James,
My mistake...I thought it was 30 days which would have cut it a little close.
If that's the case then I would have given her the chance to follow through before filing the complaint."

That is what I have been trying to say all along. I just think that he had other reasons for filing the complaing. Other reasons like he was angry she would not provide the info he requested (hre whosaler's contact info). In fact I know it as he stated just that in his complaint. He did what he did out of spite, and then when he was promised a refund, he posted here out of spite as well.

 

[Aprylla]

Aprylla, like I said, the post was to let YOU know what was going through my mind as well as everyone else in the hopes that you would finally understand my position. It was not intended as an attack on you as you have obviously taken it. Life experience tells me that those who yell the loudest (MY RESPONSES ARE IN RED) are those with a guilty conscience. I'm sorry you chose to ignore the section where I wrote "I am not proposing anything here, just posting out loud my though processes", and felt it was an itemized list to which you had to respond.

Well, obviously my responses were in RED so that people reading could tell what I wrote from what you wrote. DUH!! If all of it were in BLACK it would be very hard for someone to follow what you said and what I said.

The problem here is this: everything you said in that long post that I responded to, you had ALREADY e-mailed to me, at least TWICE. It was all also answered AT LEAST TWICE, now three times or more.

If it wasn't meant as an attack on me, and you had already e-mailed me the same thing TWICE, then why would you bother posting it here?

I am actually glad that you posted it. I have told people that you have asked me the same questions over and over and over and I would respond only to have you ask the the SAME questions again. It does get very tiring to have to answer the same questions and repeat myself over and over, when apparently you just don't "get it".

I think I remained reasonably calm regarding your flippant view of hurricanes and evacuation. I was VERY angry that you would suggest your minimalist view of hurricanes. I guess you feel pretty safe form them though sine you are in Pennsylvania. I guess if I were up North I wouldn't have to worry about them either. I also have to believe that the only hurricanes you have dealt with are on TV. So don't go trying to act like you know about the severity of hurricanes until you have BEEN IN ONE. FYI, my house is about 500 FEET from the water. HAD the hurricane hit here, even as the Category 3 it ended up being, the storm surge (ocean/water rising) alone could have easily put my house under water. As I explained to you in an earlier e-mail, if we get flooding rains here for one day my house ends up with 2 to 4 inches of water INSIDE of it. I was NOT taking chances with a hurricane, so yes, I threw my stuff in a car and ran. I don't know if you think I had room for shipping supplies and stuff (and no, taking shipping supplies was never on my list) I grabbed the animals, a few changes of clothes and 2 photo albums. It's not like I drive a huge car to take everything in. I have a compact sized Toyota. I was *lucky* to be able to fit what I did in there and got to drive over a hundred miles with a guinea pig in my lap, because I wasn't leaving him behind.

Ok that is my rant on that. I'm sorry if that was a bit off topic. I just don't think that Mr. Gilbert understand what a hurricane is at this point. I don't know why I bother to keep explaining about hurricanes either, because it is apparent that he just doesn't understand.

At this point I just want Mr. Gilbert to have his money back and have this over with. PayPal has received notice that they are to IMMEDIATELY refund Mr. Gilbert's money. As some of you understand, PayPal does things in their own time. I have done all I can do, short of harassing PayPal 20 times a day, which I honestly think would only cause them to move SLOWER.

As for me "spending Mr. Gilbert's money" I had no other choice, period. That was all that I had, and I make no excuses about it. Desperate times do call for desperate measures. However, there is plenty enough in the PayPal account now to cover the $450.00 to Mr. Gilbert. On top of that, I did not know that the snakes were going to die during/after evacuation. I am not a psychic, because if I were I never would have left home in the first place. In a perfect world, there would have been no hurricane, and no snakes would have died, and Mr. Gilbert would have had his snakes in hand a couple weeks ago. Normally, this is how things go with my transactions (receive payment, set up shipping date with Buyer, package animals, ship, confirm they were received just fine, the end), except during times of things I can't control (i.e. hurricanes).

So, Mr. Gilbert will have his refund as soon as PayPal gets off their collective rears and takes the money from my frozen account and sends it to him. As I have said and will say again, my account is frozen, I can't touch ANY funds in there for ANY reason, not even a refund and believe me I have tried to issue a refund, but can't since the account is frozen. If someone could tell me how to do a screen shot I can send 100% proof that my account has been frozen since 7/20/05.

My hands are tied at this point, so I am just going to let PayPal deal with issuing the refund since there is nothing else I can do at this point.

 

[liquidleaf]

How to take a screencap.

Hit the "Print Screen/SysRq" key (should be above "Insert" and next to "Scroll Lock" somwhere to the right of your Backspace key.

Then open MS Paint - Start ->Programs ->Accessories ->Paint

Press Ctrl-V (or select Edit -> Paste) to paste your screencap.

Now select File -> Save As
Choose "Jpeg" from the file type pulldown menu.

Upload your file to a webhost or the gallery here and then link it up! All there is to it.

 

[pch101]

Aprylla, Like I said, I think his thought processes are askew. If he wouldn't have cfiled the complaint, he would have his snakes, and if he would now be willing to lift it, he would not have to wait for his money, and if he did not post this thread after you promised him a refund, he would not look like the petty gun jumper that he seems to be. He had choices, and in making them he ended up screwing himself.

 

[Aprylla]

IMHO, a vendor who has your money owes you either your snakes or the money back. It would be a foolish move to give up the protection of the Paypal complaint process unless you get those snakes. She has YOUR money. YOU have zip.

Unfortunately, I have "zip" too now. I have ZERO access to ANY of the funds in the PayPal account. There is about $612.00 in there and I can't even touch the part that is the difference between the $612.00 in there and the $450.00 in dispute by Mr. Gilbert. My account is frozen 100%, basically when I log in it shows that fact. The only thing I can do with my PayPal account right now is to review complaints and history. I can't even add funds form my bank account.

Will someone please post or privately contact me and tell me how to do a screen shot? I want to post what I see when I log into the PayPal account just so that everyone understands.

I will have the snakes in my hands this coming weekend. However, PayPal has already now received an official statement saying that they are to IMMEDIATELY refund Mr. Gilbert's money. They could do that at any point...this minute, this hour, tomorrow, or next week, I don't know. What I *do* know is that if I go ahead and send Mr. Gilbert the snakes AND PayPal decides while the snakes are en route to return his money, then I am out the snakes AND the money. I am not willing to take that chance. I am not someone who is financially stable enough right now to take a risk that big.

So, my plan of action right now is to wait for PayPal to refund Mr. Gilbert's money. AFTER his money is refunded, I will re-post the snakes for sale and find someone else who wants to purchase them. However, I am keeping the snakes in the event that PayPal were to tell me to send them instead and gives me access to the money in my account (stranger things have happened, so I want to be prepared for anything).