APTORs

[shrap]

No, not because he bought a leo, because of the things he has said to his fellow breeders. The threats he has made to reputable sources regarding undercutting and "ruining" his peers. Big difference.

Undercutting? This coming from a guy selling female het albino balls for $550? Pot calling the kettle black if you ask me. Regardless, none of that has anything to do with this site.

 

[Chris@TSE]

Many have matched that very same price, and it was not done to intentionally undercut fellow breeders. It was done to fund new projects.... there is quite a difference. If I had gone to people stating that I was out to undercut someone with the intention of harming thier business like Poe did you can rest assured I would have been hung out to dry here and you know this... Nice try though.....

 

[shrap]

Nice try? I am not trying to do anything other than point out that saying Poe should not be allowed here because of things that have nothing to do with here is BS.

I happen to think that justice applies to everyone and anytime I see an injustice I will stand up and say so. Let the punishment fit the crime, his crime has nothing to do with here.

 

[Chris@TSE]

And also, you're right about the site. It does have nothing to do with it, I do believe the fact that I am utterly disgusted by the child motivated my previous statements. I'm just bothered by the fact that someone like that can simply go on as if nothing has happened. Its insulting...

No matter though, He's sure to repeat the same mistakes again and this time I'm hoping it wont be a slap on the wrist.....

 

[Gregg M]

Coming from breeding corns I am dumbfounded at how a Leo morph that has been around for years, everyone and there brother have for sale still fetches $300+. Well now I know. When a new morph is introduced and offered for sale, rather then it being offered to the public it is only offered to a handful of breeders and all others are locked out. Then when that handful of marketers have 100's of babies available they all agree to keep the prices sky high. Thus still keeping us smaller guys that can't afford or justify a $800+ gecko out of the morph. And then of course those "big guys" go and slam a little guy that happened to find a way around their rules.

I dont understand what you are getting at with this..... Are you mad that certain leo morphs are going for 300+???? Are you upset because you cant afford to buy or justify buying into a brand new morph while the prices are high????

I wonder what drove you to post this..... I think that what Alex is doing with this morph is very commendable..... He could have been one of those scumbag breeders that just floods the market with a new morph for high prices without giving anyone else a chance to work with them before the market price drops..... But you know what???? Alex selected a few people to work with them...... The people he selected are great breeders and not all of the people he picked are the "big guys"......

I for one, am happy he selected who works with them carefully..... I do not think any other breeder has taken the time and effort to make sure a new morph will retain a good price and to make sure the market does not get flooded with it......

I will be working with the snows in the very near future..... Guess what.... I am by no means a "big guy"....... I love to work with leos and I am in for the long haul..... I am actually putting my venomous projects on hold for a while so I can refine the leopard gecko line I am working with now.......

As a breeder Alex as the right to refuse sale to ANYONE...... Too bad all breeders do not go the way Alex has gone..... This hobby would be much better....

 

[shrap]

Chris, I understand your frustration and would be lying my butt off if I said I have not been guilty of the same type of things myself. I just hate seeing anyone treated unfairly and in this case (regarding Fauna) I felt Dan was.

 

[Gregg M]

Undercutting? This coming from a guy selling female het albino balls for $550? Pot calling the kettle black if you ask me.

I will tell ya something..... I bought a female het albino ball for $600 from another well known breeder a year and a half ago...... Chris is right, there are others selling them for around that price...... I dont think he is undercutting at all......

 

[Monte]

For the record - I do know that Dan Lubinsky passed a lie detector test (I saw the copies of the test). I'm not too sure that Dan Lubinsky is tucking tail and hiding in shame - more like disappointed that so many of his so-called friends dropped him like a fart in church.

Say what you want about Dan Lubinsky - he probably screwed up - but he's still my friend - and I'm not skewering him or backing down on my public friendship of him.

I understand and totally respect the business plan and ethics of Alex Hues and Chris Johnson concerning the snow project. And I share their concern. But I do know this and state it publicly - I count Dan Lubinsky as a herp friend and I personally miss him on this forum.

I hope someday all his "friends" might re-consider and do the same thing.

Oh, and Dan Poe, I don't like what you did - it doesn't smell right - but I do like the looks of your APTOR's. You have some rep work to do pal - but you should have the right to post here as well. If people don't like you - then they should probably do what my mom told me years ago, "If you don't have anything good to say - then don't say it."

 

[shrap]

I wonder what drove you to post this..... I think that what Alex is doing with this morph is very commendable..... He could have been one of those scumbag breeders that just floods the market with a new morph for high prices without giving anyone else a chance to work with them before the market price drops..... But you know what???? Alex selected a few people to work with them...... The people he selected are great breeders and not all of the people he picked are the "big guys"......

I for one, am happy he selected who works with them carefully..... I do not think any other breeder has taken the time and effort to make sure a new morph will retain a good price and to make sure the market does not get flooded with it......

I will be working with the snows in the very near future..... Guess what.... I am by no means a "big guy"....... I love to work with leos and I am in for the long haul..... I am actually putting my venomous projects on hold for a while so I can refine the leopard gecko line I am working with now.......

As a breeder Alex as the right to refuse sale to ANYONE...... Too bad all breeders do not go the way Alex has gone..... This hobby would be much better....

Agreed!!

 

[shrap]

I will tell ya something..... I bought a female het albino ball for $600 from another well known breeder a year and a half ago...... Chris is right, there are others selling them for around that price...... I dont think he is undercutting at all......

I have seen them around at that price too. I was just making a point.....that none of that has anything to do with Fauna or should be a basis for getting them booted from here.

If we allowed things like that to be the determining factor of being allowed to post here then we would be opening a Pandoras Box. Any small but vocal group could start a campaign against anyone they did not like just to get them booted. I do not think that any of us really want to go down that road.

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

Ive thought about this alot yesterday and today and here is how I feel, Dan you have some amazing leos and I honestly would have been proud to buy and own one of your offspring until recently.

The fact that you acquired the mack snow by less than honest means is not near as bad as the fact that you refuse to admit to it and/or apologize to Alex for it.

From Monte's post it appears that Dan L did not know what you were doing, looks like you had a freindly deal on a bredding loan with him without him knowing that Alex had refused to sell to you becuase of whatever reasons, it appears that you went behind Alex's back as well as Dan L's and you will not or refuse to simply admit you were wrong by doing this and apologize to the both of them.

You are willing to let Dan L's name go down with you by allowing others to think he knew about the circumstances and sent you the snow anyway when you could simply apologize to the both of them, return the leo to Dan L or Alex if they would have it after the amoeba claims you made.

And a return to Dan L is past due if it truely was a simple breeding loan..... correct????

 

[magick-bears]

What? Corns dont hold the same value so you're upset? lol

This has EVERYTHING to do with making sure the market is not FLOODED when they become publicly available driving their value to rock bottom. You're also talking about a kid who practices NO quarantine procedures and openly admits to some of the poorest husbandry known... He's also stated he is looking to undercut all of his fellow breeders in pricing.

Is this the type of individual you want involved in a project that could potentially change the future of something YOU are interested in? Before you even have an opportunity to work with them?

Absolutely not.

But is it not up to the individual that is buying from him if he/she wants to deal with some one that has poor husbandry practices. All of the threads that you reference do not even touch upon any of these issues. They simply deal with the fact that he was able to acquire a Mack Snow Leo and the way he did or did not go about getting it.

As for “undercut all of his fellow breeders in pricing” how many can he produce to truly effect the over all price. However, I think that by you adding that issue it goes to prove my statement that “Then when that handful of marketers have 100's of babies available they all agree to keep the prices sky high.” It all come down to supply and demand and it sounds to me like there is a small group of folks trying to regulate the supply of new morphs that are available just to keep the price up.

Nothing is wrong with making sure an entry level project, and not a publicly distributed morph (yet), does not fall into the hands of someone simply looking to make a quick buck by mass producing them and ruining it for everyone involved down the road. You simply do not get it, big surprise.

I'm sure if the precautions were taken to protect new and upcoming corn morphs you would not be here whining...... lol

If a new morph is not established enough to be publicly available then why even introduce it yet. Tell those that you are willing to sell to about them. Just don’t list them on your site and on a public forum. Then you have complete control over who originally works with them.

Now please, Before you go opening your mouth again acting as if you actually KNOW what you're talking about, read the other thread linked above..... In fact do a search. There is one thread in the leopard gecko forum, and one in the BOI. Read BOTH. There is a little more too it and you sure make yourself look GREAT when talking from an uneducated standpoint. Good luck with that though!

Just to set you straight I did read the above mentioned threads. And guess what I found? The same 3 or 4 people trying to slam a new breeder that seems to have done NOTHING wrong. But then again I have been told I was wrong to have purchased a SHTCTB for only $20 from PetCo. I mean how dare Bill & Marcia Brant wholesale such a high end morph so that PetCo could make it available to the general public!!!!

Just my $0.03
~Jeff C.

 

[Manhattan Herps]

monte i agree, Dan lubinsky is a great guy and it would be great to see him back, like wendy, i dont think he knew poe's intentions, alex did trust him not to sell it though, so i can see the reason behind that arguement, but i still consider him a good guy

 

[groovygeckos]

This has EVERYTHING to do with making sure the market is not FLOODED when they become publicly available driving their value to rock bottom. You're also talking about a kid who practices NO quarantine procedures and openly admits to some of the poorest husbandry known... He's also stated he is looking to undercut all of his fellow breeders in pricing.

Nothing is wrong with making sure an entry level project, and not a publicly distributed morph (yet), does not fall into the hands of someone simply looking to make a quick buck by mass producing them and ruining it for everyone involved down the road. You simply do not get it, big surprise.

I'm sure if the precautions were taken to protect new and upcoming corn morphs you would not be here whining......

Fact remains this "little guy" ruinined any "trust" or "respect" he had left here amongst his peers. He has shown the lengths of deception he will drop too to get what he wants. He's a selfish little child and mommy helps foot the obsession. And the best part about it......... He badmouths the entire community, shows his TRUE colors, and then weeks later acts as if nothing has happened! If he thinks for a second anyone will forget, or if he thinks that this will not follow him or just "go away", hes DEAD wrong.

just making sure you cant edit this . its BS and can be proven.

hey Chriss , Ron simply didnt write you back when you wanted to have an APTOR , and he wasnt interested in selling to you . what did you do ? badmouthed him on this forum and .......
"hopped a flight to new york " FROM NEW YORK NO DOUBT and bought an APTOR at the white plains show ! coincedence ???? LOL yes thats right people he took a plane from new york to new york (somehow) where someone just happened to have an APTOR available for him !!!! i am guilty of no more than you .

i was offered a pair of Snows , price and payment options , by two individuals not only Alex . i allready started investing in females , since i had not one . i liked them enough i would have bought one whenever or whereever they were available to work with the project i allready had committed to and was so rudely blackballed from .
you think someone has the right to influence others w/ the same thing not to sell to someone ?? i have it in e-mail from a "friend" of Hue. restricting trade ? price fixing ? thats OK ? LOL

now there are MANY Snows about to be available from many sources . what would stop me or ANYONE else from buying one ? and what happens in a few months when those Males are ready to go ? each male that is sold could produce 5,10,50,100 Snows ( low numbers) . its real easy to see that next year everybody and their brother will be hatching Snows and Supers . should have kept it "under wraps"

whos project is it ??? John Mack`s NOT Alex Johnson`s /Chris Hue`s !

so im going to flood the market all by myself when there are 10 or 12 larger breeders working with this project ? LOL

a kid ? OK your how many years yonger than i ? 3 at least , 1976 here , and neither you or I are adults(over 30 ) yet . we ARE both "kids" to most here , and you certainly are the LESS mature in their eyes too . quit flattering yourself .

no quaranteen procedures huh ? i know when i see a healthy ,non-stressed and eating gecko , i also had a fecal ran . ill give you that i broke my usual quaranteen of at least 3 months , with this one animal due to the excitement .
i have just now paired my APTOR to the "Hets" after 5 months in QT (had tried one earlier no luck) . so for someone who doesnt practice QT and wants to make a quick buck . dont you think the APTOR X Hets would have been started back in early December ?

this Snow project was # 1 on my list to get going and still is AFTER the rest of my groups are checked again .
i was wrong for rushing things , there is nothing i can do to change that .
it is not a matter that concerns you . im at fault and take full responsibility if something happened .

openly admits to some of the poorest ( poorest is not a word ) husbandry known ? ide like to see where you saw that and some of what IMO you were on . i clean and disinfect once a day and STERILIZE weekly , there is constantly FRESH food and water because i have a fairly small managable collection and i take care of each gecko personally

had not planned on doing anything differently than anyone else with the new-morphs . besides what am i going to offer ? but literally a handful of each type of het or morph .

not publically distributed huh ? John was selling at reptile shows for quite awhile (for $750) . hmmmm then we have Alex` website w/ a salespitch the "ANYONE who gets into this project " BS w/ pictures and prices of available animals($1250-1750) !!!! LOL if he only wanted to sell to certain individuals it should have been through word of mouth .

again mass producing ? trying to make a quick buck ? Chris quit your whining ! how many females are you or any one of the "chosen ones" going to pair to that one male gecko ?

badmouthing the entire community ? uhhuh , show us please ? you are mistaken again ! you badmouth everyone on this forum to sickly make yourself look more appealing to work with . YOU badmouthed RT on this forum because he snubbed your e-mail , then YOU badmouth someone on this forum for simply stating you have done the same thing to them . practice what you preach !

proof is nice , too bad you have none . youll see it soon enough !

 

[Gregg M]

If a new morph is not established enough to be publicly available then why even introduce it yet. Tell those that you are willing to sell to about them. Just don’t list them on your site and on a public forum. Then you have complete control over who originally works with them.

What kind of logic is this??? That is just about as silly as your user name....LOL....

Anyway, I think you are a bit bitter about something...... Maybe you are just figuring out that you should have went with breeding leos instead of corns....LOL

I do not think there was anything wrong with what Alex did as far as selecting breeders to work with this morph..... He can advertise them all he wants...... They were availiable...... But not everyone made the cut......

 

[magick-bears]

and what do you think that $15.00 albino cornsnake or $20.00 snow corn originally sold for 15-20 years ago? what about lavendar/motley/opal corns...did you know they still sell for $1,000.00 plus?

Yes I do know what Albino and Snow corns sold for 15-20 years ago. And I can tell you it was under $100. As to the other corn morphs you mentioned:
Lavenders are under $100
Motleys range from $35 to $800 or so depending on the color morph
Opals are around $100 to $150

Ever heard of supply and demand? how about market value?

You think Ferrari sells their best and most expensive Enzo model to just anyone because they have money? Guess again. They select whom they wish to purchase their top of the line model so it isnt turned around and placed for resale or utilized in a way that de-values or defaces the prestige of owning one.....and thats for something that pretty much depreciates as soon as it rolls down the road.

Actually Ferrari does sell to anyone that has the money and is willing to wait in line to get the car. They maintain their prices by only putting out so many cars a year not who they sell them to. It seems that some are trying to take the same approach to Leos. Ferrari can do this as they are the only ones that can produce an authentic Ferrari. However, that is not the case with Leopard Geckos. So instead it seems there are some trying to limit who gets them. Hell I am surprised you are not selling them with spay/neuter agreements.

Just my $0.03
~Jeff C.

 

[Hues1]

Jeff / magick-bears

Apparently you didnt read through that entire thread or at the very least didnt understand it to the fullest extent.

Maybe you missed the part where this is a new morph and is priced as such.

Maybe you missed the part that this is a bonafide business for some people like myself whom pay taxes and claims this as an income.

Maybe you missed the part that I spent alot of money investing in this particular project.

Maybe you missed the part where there were only a limited number of these animals available to begin with.

Maybe you missed the part that selective selling/distributing ensures fair and just competition.

Maybe you missed the part that by selectively selling and distributing to ethical/morally conscious breeders, you ensure the longetivity and prosperous nature of the project/product.

Essentially by the posts you've made so far in this particular thread, the only thing I get is you believe its okay to undermine/circumvent certain criteria(s) that I and numerous other breeders/businesses put into place to ensure fair competition and just rewards for all involved. It doesnt seem to me that you have tried very hard to look beyond this entire situtation as anything more than a bunch of breeders/"Big Guys" offering animals at what you would consider overinflated prices so the "little guys" like yourself cant afford them.

Well I hate to break it to you...but if guys like me werent paying the thousands and thousands of dollars and selling animals for thousands and thousands of dollars...where would a guy like you even get the opportunity to start a fruitful "reptile business". Ya think this industry would sustain itself on $25.00 cornsnakes and $25.00 leopard geckos indefinitely?

I hear the argument all the time...about reptile morphs being too high...but 99.9% of the time its from the guys who either cant afford them, cant look at reptiles as anything more than something disposable, are just plain bitter that they werent involved in some form or another or a combination of all of the above.

Apparently if these morphs are selling for large amounts of money...then there must be people paying those prices. And to "mess with", corrupt, taint, interfere, circumvent, undermine, purposely undercut, along with a multitude of other things.....is just plainly wrong ethically/morally/ and sometimes even legally.

Sooooooo.....ya think I should've sold all of the Mack snows for pennies on the dollar after I spent over $15,000.00 to establish one of the largest and highest quality of Mack snow collections available just so a guy like you can afford them now? Who's going to put those losses back in my pocket? did it never occur to you or anyone else who thinks they're priced high that if you wait a couple of years the prices do come down? maybe into a range more affordable to you? The answer is simple...I looked at it as a business opportunity and as such they were marketed/sold as such...no ifs ands or buts.

Its all fine and dandy that there are true enthusiasts and hobbyists out there (we need more of them)...but then again there are also some of us that do this as a business/income...for someone who "ran a commercial reptile operation from 84-89" I would surely think that you would understand this concept? Or did you just give away reptiles in order to make them affordable to everyone?

Incidentally...how many hobbyists/enthusiasts wish they could some day be able to make a living at what they love to do....which is to work with reptiles? I know I was one of those hobbyists/enthusiasts when I started out. And there's nothing out there that would make me change my mind...heck I sold off and gave up a few businesses just to raise the funds for my reptile business.

For any of you guys out there that are thinking of breeding/selling reptiles as a living....this entire situtation with the Mack snows is exactly what you'll encounter time and time again from people who just dont understand...or just dont take the time to see the big picture.

As for poe......to "Hell" it is.

 

[groovygeckos]

stated he is looking to undercut all of his fellow breeders in pricing.

OMG i said something when i was angry to maybe one or two of my fellow breeders . appologies were made,apparently not accepted by them , and now the accusations .

it has never been my intention to affect any of the sellers or go much lower .
ANY pricing difference on anything i WOULD have offered "for less" would be to enjoy having someone own something they otherwise could not afford like a few have done for me . and i would not do the same w/ prime examples of a morph .
i have explained this elswhere on this forum .
Also ill add that this was intended to get some sales in the beggining and start to build a reputation . it was also before my mother became involved (as a partner) in "Groovy Geckos" .
since , i had to put alot of thought into this and its not just myself it COULD affect but her as well , not to mention others who do this for a living .
its not something i would want for her , myself or anyone else ,so it has become old news .

and yes thats the proof , a polygraph test ! read em and weep .

there was no "plan" or prearrangment to derail the money train .

now many reputations have been tarnished , for no good reason at all .
goodnight !

 

[aliceinwl]

This is getting insane! Lets keep the leopard gecko forum about leopard geckos. Take this discussion to Hell already and leave it there.

-Alice

 

[aliceinwl]

BTW nice geckos Dan.

-Alice