Info Arizona Exotics --- Payson, Az.

[guruza]

Holy crap this has turned into a drama fest. To me, I could care less if this was the most spotless pet shop in the world, nothing can fix the attitude held by everyone involved in it. Also, I really don't care what kind of excuse you have for having a full quarantine room and having to put a sick animal on display. Could Tom have done a few things differently? Well, hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? It isn't the customer's job to get the employees to go check the status of cages in their shop, common sense would tell you that the employees need some better training.

Way to completely disregard Toms attack on every single person that questioned what happened or asked for pics.

 

[lizbot]

This is unreal.
Tom will pound and pound a point saying the same thing over and over, resorting to name-calling and put-downs for anyone who questions what he is saying. He will do this until he notices that he has been proven wrong, or can't support his claims. Then he suddenly will just ignore repeated questions about it.
He obviously took more than one picture while there, and let me prove both of my points:
He says, somewhere way back the first time, that there was a large shed inside a bottle from a snake that could not have fit through the opening of the water receptacle. As proof, he now posts a picture of it.
See post #344 on page 35.
He then asks to have it explained.
THERE IS NO SHED INSIDE THE RECEPTACLE!
When others ask him to please point out the shed, there's suddenly no mention of it again.

Here's what I believe happened. He went through all of the pictures he took; when viewing one of them, he erroneously believed that the inside rim of the bottom of the receptacle, when viewed through the magnifying effect of the water, through the see-through side view of the receptacle, was a SHED. So he, again, made up a story of what he had seen.
I also believe he probably went to go point out the shed, but when looking closer at the picture, he noticed his mistake. And hoping others would forget it too if he just picked something else to harp on (in this case that he is now left all alone to fight 4-5 others who are posting). Just my belief though.

Unreal.

And you know what else?
If some of you feel that the picture of the Collard lizard is alone enough for them to never step foot in the store, or never buy anything from the business; FINE. You have that right, and there's nothing wrong with it.
But that one picture alone was NOT enough for you to write and condemn this business or the business owner. If you had proof that the store was as bad as you say, then back up your claims!
If you truly were concerned about that lizard, concerned enough to want to put a store out of business for its condition, then you had an obligation to that lizard to do something OTHER THAN go home and spend time writing on the internet about it.

You snapped one picture (you say, but then post another) and went home thinking you had enough proof to put a store out of business. Out of concern for the lizard you say. When we ask for more pictures to back up your claims, you say: Why should I have to do more?
Seems to me I actually did more for the animals in the store than you did. You had me thinking there was a possibility that the conditions in the store had changed since I saw it myself, so I placed a call to a family member and asked them to go out of their way to go by the store to get pictures, so I could then further do something if need be. Family then change the route they are driving to make a stop at the store, go through the trouble to get some pictures.
Turns out, conditions had not changed. Still a nice, well kept up store. (And please remember that my pictures were taken less than a week after you put up this thread! In that time, if the people in the store had even seen your thread yet, they certainly had not had enough time to do a major overhaul of the store, clean up, and nurse dying animals back to health.)

You then place a call to the police, file a report. I don't know what for, but the result is that an officer shows up at the store. He checks the store out, and advises the owner to file a counter-report against you for filing a false report!
Of course you are going to say: See if I call the police again! They didn't do anything. Yes sir, it sounds to me like they did. Exactly what they are supposed to do; they investigated your claims. This is just my guessing on the matter, but seems to me like the officer may have thought that there was no veracity in your claims.

Interesting indeed.

 

[SirenSanJose]

As for husbandry alone, your beardies are all on inappropriate substrate that bring high risk of impaction -- I've seen more customers bring in lizards that end up dying due to both the sand and the alfalfa than I like to remember.

And there's no excuse for calcium deposits on tanks like that. My tap water comes out of the faucet at 8.7 and stains just as badly, and it's nothing a couple of an hours a month with razor blade can't handle. You either have too few staff, too few hours assigned, or too many enclosures if they get that bad with no attention.

, and the other things, like spiny lizards, gopher snakes, and a variety of other small reptiles are taken back out to the wild and released.

WHAT? Wild animals picked up from who knows where, brought into a pet store, and released at random are incredibly damaging to the environment.

At best, the animal is released in an inappropriate area with none of its species or desired prey around, and it fails to thrive and reproduce. At worst, it's released into an area where it can hybridize with an endangered species or sub-population, or brings in an exotic non-native disease from captive stock. You know, like the non-native snake mites you had in the shop at the time this little guy came in.

In any state, releasing anything yourself is irresponsible -- I don't know about AZ, but in California, it's outright illegal. Here, captured natives are to be held in captivity for lifetime (if they are not endangered and it's legal to possess them) or surrendered to a wildlife rehab center or Fish & Game, who can properly QT and rehab the animal and find its appropriate release range.

Everything I've said, I'm saying as one store owner to another. I've said similar things to stores local to me, to their faces, and I stand by what I've said to you. I find your attitude and your business practices questionable, and if you were local to me, you would NOT be on my "to do business with" list.

 

[lizbot]

First, I must apologize. I said:

He obviously took more than one picture while there,
You snapped one picture (you say, but then post another)

I see now that it was a picture that someone else posted.
I was wrong about Tom having taken more than one; there is no proof he took more. He posted the other picture while seeking an explanation for the shed inside the water-container; I still have no idea, if the picture isn't showing us the shed, why re-post the picture?

And there's no excuse for calcium deposits on tanks like that.

This was explained earlier:

calcium on the glass? not really, enclosures are supposed to have a frosted appearance to reduce visuals of other animals.

If you look at the pictures you can see that the front glass and back walls are clear (or minimal deposits), while the side panels are "frosted."

And why are we now, on page 39! of this thread, discussing the appropriateness of release practices/laws?!

 

[David Scarboro]

Tom

You have posted numerous times that you were done with this thread. Perhaps you should quit before you melt down completely.

 

[Sang]

Arizona state law allows for animals removed from location to be released within 24 hours of capture, assuming they have not been fed or watered. (omg 24 hours with no water, surely they will die). or if they have been housed with other captive fauna, they cannot be released.

that being said, there are guidelines within this state typically, to be within 1 mile of the location the animal was removed from, while this isn't always doable, there are several locations in the surrounding vicinity of town to release things appropriately.

animals in good health are expected to be released back to areas as close to their point of capture as possible, when this is not possible look for an area that closely mimics areas they'd be found in.

no WE/ I am not rounding up random animals from around the state and releasing them. people bring animals in they are question about how long ago the animal was captured and what part of town.

quick little note about the native fauna of Payson
Collard lizards
Horned lizards
Spiny lizards
Whip tails
one of the small skink species
Madrean alligator lizards.
probably a dozen other lizard species i'm not mentioning.

snakes,
Gopher snakes
Coachwhips
Ground snakes
Patchnose
Longnose
Leafnose
Mountain king snakes
Black and white king snakes
and Gila monsters (in certain elevations) usually about 10-12 miles outside of town they have been located.

as for rattle snakes,
Arizona blacks (very common)
Black tails
Diamond backs
Mojaves


while the rattle snakes are not brought in, the advice is typically to allow the snakes to leave on their own. if someone is not available to go and remove them.

releasing is typically done early night and or early morning depending on the animal. and are brought to areas were they have been located previously while out hiking or herping.

if you think this is wrong, you might want to go call rattle snake solution and tell him what he is doing is ILLEGAL as well since you seem to want to apply California laws in Arizona.

 

[arizonaexotics]

As for husbandry alone, your beardies are all on inappropriate substrate that bring high risk of impaction -- I've seen more customers bring in lizards that end up dying due to both the sand and the alfalfa than I like to remember..

FYI, that is zoo med excavator clay, not loose sand.

 

[Sang]

here you go, might want to call arizona reptile center, reptile mogul exotics, predators reptile center, and custom creatures to remove their rabbit pellet bedding IMMEDIATLY.

azrc : (480) 835-6244
Mogul reptile : (480) 307-6330
custom creatures: (602) 674-8002
predators reptile store: (480) 668-6369

 

[j_dunlavy]

James, you and Shannon keep assuming that the only thing that has people outraged in this thread is one picture of one lizard. You cant even imagine that it would have anything to do with the arrogant responses from you and Shannon. You are both doing more damage to the shop then that one picture that Tom snapped.

note: red flag behavior

I think a lot of effort is going into convincing readers that there was never a problem. Politicians and corporations do this routinely when they get caught.
I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to realize that pictures posted after such an incident are going to be true representations... of a cleaned up situation.

note: The backtrack game
note: the cover-up game

Lucille, honestly this sounds exactly what Tom and his buddies were doing when myself and others posted photos of the store... unless you are referring to them with this post.

note: post cover-up
P.S. Tom and his buddies are the ones who actually take excellent care of their animals

It's just comical that some of you think that ex post facto pictures really prove anything, in regards to how the whole store looked when Tom was physically there. That being said, due to whatever the hell it was that made Tom think he could get his kill-shot by presenting a single picture, there are only a small handful of people who know the truth. Quite frankly, and at the risk of sending Tom off the deep end, I think there's precious little credibility among anyone involved - either directly or peripherally. As is generally the case with conflicting stories, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Personally, despite the belief that he's a bit nutty, I'm leaning more toward Tom's side, while still being closer to the middle than anywhere else. At this point, aside from digging deeper holes, none of you are accomplishing a whole lot. The dazzling display of is getting old. That goes for both sides. Carry on.

True

Holy crap this has turned into a drama fest. To me, I could care less if this was the most spotless pet shop in the world, nothing can fix the attitude held by everyone involved in it. Also, I really don't care what kind of excuse you have for having a full quarantine room and having to put a sick animal on display. Could Tom have done a few things differently? Well, hindsight is 20/20 isn't it? It isn't the customer's job to get the employees to go check the status of cages in their shop, common sense would tell you that the employees need some better training.

yes

Of course they will clean up and post all these nice photos of the enclosures weeks later. Funny how none of those nice clean shop photos were posted by Shannon or any of his employees the day of or even the few days following the beginning of this thread; all that was done was AE & friends calling Tom a liar and a bunch of BS excuses.
Arizona Exotics: YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED!
You are not deserving of ANY sort of respect. PERIOD!
Get out of the hobby

 

[Amelanistic Orca]

note: red flag behavior


note: The backtrack game
note: the cover-up game


note: post cover-up
P.S. Tom and his buddies are the ones who actually take excellent care of their animals


True


yes

Of course they will clean up and post all these nice photos of the enclosures weeks later. Funny how none of those nice clean shop photos were posted by Shannon or any of his employees the day of or even the few days following the beginning of this thread; all that was done was AE & friends calling Tom a liar and a bunch of BS excuses.
Arizona Exotics: YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED!
You are not deserving of ANY sort of respect. PERIOD!
Get out of the hobby

Too much karma has been sent out by me apparently... So.

Easily the most respectable post in this thread... the last sentence is so true!

 

[lizbot]

Of course they will clean up and post all these nice photos of the enclosures weeks later. Funny how none of those nice clean shop photos were posted by Shannon or any of his employees the day of or even the few days following the beginning of this thread; all that was done was AE & friends calling Tom a liar and a bunch of BS excuses.

Tom posted this thread on May 27.
My pictures were taken on June 2.
If you notice, that is 6 days.
The first employee from the store posted, I believe either on June 1st or June 2nd, that this thread had been brought to their attention a couple days prior.
So, let's for argument's sake say she posted that on the 1st; a couple days before that would've been May 30.
You are not at all impressed that from May 30th (when they found out about the thread) to June 2nd (when my pictures were taken) they took the store from the imagined state of:

dry water dishes, delapidated animals, sunk in eyes, keeled scales, sheds left behind from lack of maintenance, stuck sheds, feces piled up, urates times 3 in each enviro, improper housing per species quals, algae buildup in some enviros that was scientific in proportions... Etc etc.

...to what you see in my pictures? (I say imagined, because as of yet, there has been no one here who has supported Tom's claims of the state of the store who isn't talking about years in the past.)
In 3 days? They fixed "sunk in eyes, keeled scales, improper housing per species quals, Etc, etc." in 3 days?

I actually agree with you; I don't believe they did.... Because they didn't need to!
You see, I've been in the store. And I support my claims with photo evidence. Others, like me not affiliated with the store, have done the same.
Tom has not supported his claims with anything other than accusations. Oh, and a police report, but that backfired on him, so he no longer is using those threats.

 

[Kristi23]

I think it's very possible that they could have cleaned up the store in a day. Not that hard when you have employees. As for the health of the animals, no one posted pictures of every animal in that store, so it's impossible to say.

I understand that no store will look perfect 100% of the time. However, an animal like that collard should have never been in the public eye nor should it have been in contact with the other animals in that store.

No matter how the store looks, I would not shop there based on the attitudes/posts of the employees. IMO, you would do best to stop posting and let the thread die. The things you post are making you look worse and you're going to lose customers that way. Keep the animals clean and healthy and let it go.

 

[Pottersgirl]

Liz,

You say your photos were taken on June 2nd, but you didnt post them until June 15th. You have an excuse for that, and its a plausable excuse, but still, if Tom is going to be roasted for only taking one picture, I think the rest of us will have to assume your pictures were also taken 3 weeks later.

 

[j_dunlavy]

I do not know any of the people at Arizona Exotic Pets but have stopped in once about a year ago on our way through the area, so when this thread popped up I was interested in finding out what was going on there.
I was definitely saddened at the condition of the Collared lizard, but also felt Tom quickly escalated into trying to greatly exaggerate the description of the lizard's living conditions. I saw a sadly skinny lizard next to a dry bowl, but nowhere did I see excessive poop, certainly the lizard is not sitting in its own excrement. Looks like a desert set-up to me with sand and rocks.
It is sad, and the lizard should’ve had water.

But to go with that one picture (where the lizard’s condition was later explained by an employee at the store, Danielle) to all the empty accusations that we have yet to see any evidence of, was making me exceedingly frustrated, as the accusations did not match at all what I myself witnessed in the store.

So while we were still back at page 3-4 of this thread, I had a sister-in-law actually traveling through the area, so I asked her to stop in and take some pictures of the conditions, so I could either support Tom’s claims and hope to affect some change for the poor creatures living there, or maybe make people see another side of the story.
Little did I know at the time that anyone making any claims in support of anything to do with the store would be subject to belittling and ridiculing.

Had my sister-in-law taken the pictures with a phone I could’ve had them two weeks ago, but as it is, they were taken with a camera, so I had to wait until today when she returned from her vacation, and at this point I don’t think anything will end this ridiculous hate-fest we have going on here.

She also misunderstood me a bit, I wanted her to take pictures of the over-all condition of the store, but she thought taking pictures of the tanks and animals was all I was after.

For what it’s worth, here they are. I would like to point out that these were taken before any police visits sent by Tom, or even any invites by employees/owner to come visit. The pictures are taken on June 2nd.

I agree with the blue statement

Tom posted this thread on May 27.
My pictures were taken on June 2.
If you notice, that is 6 days.
The first employee from the store posted, I believe either on June 1st or June 2nd, that this thread had been brought to their attention a couple days prior.
So, let's for argument's sake say she posted that on the 1st; a couple days before that would've been May 30.
You are not at all impressed that from May 30th (when they found out about the thread) to June 2nd (when my pictures were taken) they took the store from the imagined state of:

...to what you see in my pictures? (I say imagined, because as of yet, there has been no one here who has supported Tom's claims of the state of the store who isn't talking about years in the past.)
In 3 days? They fixed "sunk in eyes, keeled scales, improper housing per species quals, Etc, etc." in 3 days?

I actually agree with you; I don't believe they did.... Because they didn't need to!
You see, I've been in the store. And I support my claims with photo evidence. Others, like me not affiliated with the store, have done the same.
Tom has not supported his claims with anything other than accusations. Oh, and a police report, but that backfired on him, so he no longer is using those threats.

There is no date stamp so there is no real proof of when "your" photos were actually taken.
You said your sister in law took the photos; you said you were there a year ago; you then say you have been there and took photos as proof of the conditions. So which is it?

No, I am not impressed. The clean up could have easily been done in a single day. "Your" photos only show 5 enclosures; what about the rest? Any photos of the green tree pythons? The sickly ones could have easily been moved off the floor before they could be seen by anyone else pending a potential USFW visit. I just don't buy it.
Tom is not one to post something like this unless there was actually a good reason. He could have done himself a favor and taken more photos but that ship has sailed. Even if any of his claims are exaggerated, there is still no excuse for Shannon et al coming on here and providing excuses about his animals instead of offering solutions.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to be a " hater," nor am I trying to contribute or condone a "hate-fest," my beef is with those who neglect animals (or condone neglect), which you probably don't (condone neglect).
I have beef with those who use the excuse that no water is ok because they are from the desert, or claim the dish is dry because it is hot in AZ. Just total BS. Those are the ones who need to leave the hobby now.

 

[SynPlus]

Liz,

You say your photos were taken on June 2nd, but you didnt post them until June 15th. You have an excuse for that, and its a plausable excuse, but still, if Tom is going to be roasted for only taking one picture, I think the rest of us will have to assume your pictures were also taken 3 weeks later.

To be fair, there is a way to prove if this is true or not, it is called exif data. These photos were taken June 2nd.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

My impression is that people had idle pitchforks and torches and decided to make a legitimate concern into a mythological monster in order to rally the troops and inject some inflammatory drama for the sport of it as much or more than the tiny kernel of genuine sympathy. Then it seems to me as though the attacked party became defensive at first and may have initially lost its cool to some degree, but that more evidence supporting their stance has been delivered than by anyone hurling a litany of largely unsubstantiated accusations (and repeating them for the sake of repetition) as things have played out. I now think that many (not all) people have chosen their sides and are not interested in what the other has to offer/say despite any amount of evidence that could refute a claim of any kind.

I am of the mind that I would give the benefit of the doubt and then go with my own eyes rather than what anyone now claims (or then claimed) to be the case before I might decide to or decide not to do business with the accused party. If I happened to be in the area and checked out the store and there was something to my liking and the environment met positive expectations, I would make a purchase. If not, then not. In any case, I would not let somebody else dictate for me how things are. I navigate my own ship.

 

[lizbot]

There is no date stamp so there is no real proof of when "your" photos were actually taken.

Absolutely true. But why are we only taking Tom at his word? Everything he says after posting just one picture is taken to the bank. And I have nothing against that per se, you think you know someone from the posts they make, you trust them, etc.
But why is everything that anyone who questions Tom's statements immediately distrusted and discarded?

You said your sister in law took the photos; you said you were there a year ago; you then say you have been there and took photos as proof of the conditions. So which is it?

Which part of that is confusing to you?
Let me go over it again; I was there about a year ago, hence, I have been there. I never said I took the photos myself; I said I have photos to support my claims.

 

[lizbot]

Thank you Sabrina! I have no clue how to do any of that, so I didn't even want to try defending that.

 

[lizbot]

Excellent summation of the situation Nickolas!
Fwiw, I agree with you 100%.

There is just nothing that burns me more than than bullying and name-calling and picking on others just for your own amusement. Which is why I finally had to throw my 2 cents into the game.

 

[j_dunlavy]

Absolutely true. But why are we only taking Tom at his word? Everything he says after posting just one picture is taken to the bank. And I have nothing against that per se, you think you know someone from the posts they make, you trust them, etc.
But why is everything that anyone who questions Tom's statements immediately distrusted and discarded?

Tom has a longstanding good reputation in the herp community, thus what he says tends to carry some weight (even if he does do things in a crazy way, at some times more than others). I have no reason to doubt his claims but I suspect they may be a bit exaggerated. Like someone else said, the truth is likely somewhere in the middle. Despite that, the water dish pictured was empty and filthy. You don't get that amount of calcium buildup with regular cleaning... even with hard water.

Those that question Tom's statements are not immediately distrusted and discarded (at least not by me). Most of those disputing Tom's claims from the start have been providing excuses for Shannon rather than evidence. One was even providing excuses from another state with 2 accounts; kinda throws all he has to say into the "disregard" category.
I disregard those who do not deserve to be taken seriously based on what they condone, the excuses they make instead of offering solution, anger instead of civil discussion, or multiple accounts (even if they had been merged, they had them at one time).