Bad Guy Bad Chondro from Ray Morrow (aka Brotherray)

[dhaisten]

275.00 is dirt cheap for a chondro, but that is what imported "farmed" green tree pythons can go for now. Especially a "biak".

Chondros are not an aggressive species. That being said, animals represented as having originated from the island of Biak are an exception. They are notoriously foul tempered.

Some grow out of it with age, like a Carpet Python, but others never do. Depends on the animal.

This being said, even the most docile localities (although it is difficult to ever know a locality with any precision) or rather phenotypes, can be irritable if they were collected from the wild.

You would be irritated too if one of the natives grabbed you from the Jungle, brought you to some toothless Indonesian smoking a cigarette who shoved you in a coke bottle, and then you changed hands multiple times via "exporters" and "importers" to end up in the USA on some table at a show. And then...into a plastic box.

Many chondros are represented as "coming from the farm", when in fact there is only one farm in indo that I consider legit. They actually produce their animals...for the most part. Sub-adults that are wild collected do come in from them as well, however.

To the best of my knowledge, the rest of the "farms" are fronts for illegally collected chondros. It is against Indonesian law to collect green tree pythons from the wild...but you know how that goes.

Buying a chondro from someone that does not specialize in them is mistake number 1.

Buying a chondro at a show from someone that does not specialize in chondros is mistake number 2.

Buying a chondro from a show is mistake number 3, given mistake numbers 1 and 2.

You purchased a wild collected Biak chondropython (most likely wild collected) for dirt cheap at a show. Just looking at that table would have made me steer clear.

I would second the advice given above for seeing a very qualified reptile veterinarian immediately.

Your animal likely has a plethora of internal parasites that should be dealt with, assuming it is in good enough shape to receive treatment. This a good vet should now. Chondros and vets are tricky though. This is not a bearded dragon with MBD or a ball python that was left in a cage with a live rat. Guaranteed unless you deal with a very good vet they will be surprised at the parasite load and not be well versed in some areas of acclimation for this animal. Or, they will not be phased at all.

Silvadene on the spots will help. You need the vet for this. The mites you can easily deal with with repti-rinse applied as directed at 3 day intervals for the first week. Then 2 more times 1 week apart.

I wouldn't play with Nix or any other do it yourself home remedies, or reach for the frontline.

Vicks Vapor rub? Someone I know that has been doing this for a very long time treated an amazon basin with that as well as elevated temps. It worked for them. Ive seen the protocol.

I am a culture and sensitivity person myself, and then the correct antibiotics for the job. Usually dual therapy in the case of a full blown R.I. in a chondro.

BOI thread? Well, need more precise names of vendors for this.

There are probably several hundred other vendors that deal in green tree pythons, including at shows, that deserve to be on here.

Treated for parasites? Which parasites? Treated with what, what quantity, and what intervals?

Get a copy of the 2nd edition of Klingenburg "understanding reptile parasites".

Check out Morelia Viridis forum for advice suggestions.

Go to about several hundred other shows so you can get the rest of the vendors on here as well.

Quick learning curve for you now. But don't worry, totally do-able. And if you do not have the money or time...time to get both.

 

[dhaisten]

Here, this might help.

http://thereptilereport.com/green-tree-parasites/

 

[SofaKing]

So how long have you kept chondros David?

 

[SofaKing]

Paul, did it ever occur that your 5hr drive from Hamburg might be the cause of your chondro having the sniffles...

At what temp did you keep your car at for the way home? Did you keep the deli cup in a box with a heat pack for the trip?

If the chondro was in a deli cup with a paper towel, then you would clearly see mites right away.

 

[Oxyrhynchus]

There was no 5 hour drive from Hamburg, it was more like an hour and change. The snake was kept warm. I put it in a box and kept it under the floor heat.

 

[Lucille]

You purchased the snake on the 22nd. You did not note the missing scales until the 27th, according to you.

I only handled the animal briefly and it was perched the whole time. I think that is why I didn't notice the wounds, because I never got a look at it's ventral side.

Or, perhaps there were no 'wounds' to notice.
People who buy live animals and who have an opportunity to examine their prospective purchases prior to buying put themselves in a difficult position if they do not do so adequately.

If you purchase a critter and something was wrong with it that could not be seen on a visual inspection, that's one thing.
But these spots where the missing scales were would have been pretty hard to miss on a proper exam. If you chose not to unperch the snake and do an adequate exam, I don't think it is fair to put something you found five days later on the seller, because we don't know if they were there at the time.

I am sorry your snake has spots, I'm thinking a vet visit is in order. But everyone deserves fair treatment, buyers and sellers alike, and in my opinion it just isn't fair to try to put this seller on the hook for a damaged snake which could have been perfectly fine at the show.

 

[Oxyrhynchus]

Apparently you guys still have not read my original post.

My complaint is that I had no way of contacting the person I purchased from. The only thing I had was the name on the receipt, no phone number or email. It turns out I wasn't even dealing with the person whose name was on the receipt. So I hunted Ray down on here and sent him a message on Saturday. After still not getting a response, I posted on here.

I probably made a mistake buying a farm bred animal, believing that it had been treated for parasites and that it was healthy. I probably should have inspected it more, but then again as it turns out it isn't really that tame either. As the RI has been clearing up hes a very aggressive snake a bites me or tires just about every chance he gets.

I guess I have to apologize for not having decades of experience working with reptiles. I tried to contact Ray on Sunday and Mike yesterday to deal with this matter privately but they would rather come on here in a public forum and try to discredit me instead of owning up to the fact that they misrepresented the animal to me.

 

[Lucille]

I guess I have to apologize for not having decades of experience working with reptiles. I tried to contact Ray on Sunday and Mike yesterday to deal with this matter privately but they would rather come on here in a public forum and try to discredit me instead of owning up to the fact that they misrepresented the animal to me.

Stop whining. It does not take decades of experience to know that you should look at something carefully prior to purchase, especially a critter.

One more time: You do not know if the animal was misrepresented, because you did not do an adequate inspection at the show. It may have been fine at that time. And if you knew much about chondros, the adjective 'tame' is not the same as describing, let's say, a ball python.

 

[DavidBeard]

I agree with Mr. Haisten about avoiding purchasing from that table based solely on appearances alone. Everything about that presentation just screams "Wild caught junk" and "Free Mites" to me. People with sloppily put together displays and ridiculous labeling such as "Tame Chondro" are to be avoided, for a reason.

 

[Teatime]

My complaint is that I had no way of contacting the person I purchased from. The only thing I had was the name on the receipt, no phone number or email. It turns out I wasn't even dealing with the person whose name was on the receipt. So I hunted Ray down on here and sent him a message on Saturday. After still not getting a response, I posted on here.

If I went to a reptile show and someone other than the person I was talking to at the table ran my card, I would have to inquire if they were in business together and at least ask for their names. Just to know who I'd done business with. It isn't a requirement for them to personally hand you a business card or whatever. It's on you to find out that information when you buy anything from anyone...

 

[SIGNATURE DESIGN EXOTICS]

I have to agree with everyone else.
1 You had time at the show to examine the animal before purchase
2 The mites could have very well come from anything at the show (why we should all quarantine)
3 You should have taken contact info at the show by taking a pic of there banner, ask for a card or a phone number
4 Do you feed live? Cause they look like they could be bite marks. Give it a soak in a iodine solution the color of tea it should be fine ( let it soak 10 mins before adding iodine so it has a chance to drink first)
5 If your to afraid of a animal to fully check it out maybe you should think twice
6 Next time you should buy cbb since you don't have decades of experience and wc animals are for experienced keepers not first timers.
I do hope it works out for you take care of the lil guy. Take this as a lesson and please take more care before posting a bad guy thread that has no true merit.

 

[Mike Schultz]

Apparently you guys still have not read my original post.

My complaint is that I had no way of contacting the person I purchased from. The only thing I had was the name on the receipt, no phone number or email. It turns out I wasn't even dealing with the person whose name was on the receipt. So I hunted Ray down on here and sent him a message on Saturday. After still not getting a response, I posted on here.

I was wearing a name tag and I had big signs with my company name, my name, and my contact info on them sitting on my table. Not my problem if you missed all that and forgot to ask me my name, there were 8000 people at Hamburg this weekend and it is not my job to make sure every one of them knows who I am in case they cant read. Everybody who asked either got a card, or snapped a pic of my sign, or talked to me, or whatever.

I cant imagine why a chondro would be aggressive after you smeared it in vapo rub and stuck in in a 90 degree clear plastic tote.

Are you kidding right now? You are the one who posted a public thread about it. So I am going to deal with it publicly.

The animal was not misrepresented, and I was not difficult to contact, In fact I reached out to you by replying to this post about my friend who ran your card for your purchase. The issue here is that you didn't even do the research of reading my name tag, so it's no wonder that you werent prepared to properly care for an imported chondro.

Sorry but I dont issue refunds to people because they cant take care of an animal correctly. I'll take the animal back if you dont want it, but I would expect you to cover shipping and any vet care the animal will need after being in your care for 5 days.

 

[Mike Schultz]

Btw here are some pics of the chondro in question the day before the show. No wounds, calm temperament enough for me to handle it and take pics. Also, if there were mites they would be very obvious as they tend to hang out in gtp heat pits and eye sockets.

 

[Mike Schultz]

Sorry, pics broke. All this typing is tough on my.phone.

 

[dhaisten]

So how long have you kept chondros David?

Not that long. Only since 2002. I have been keeping reptiles since 1977 (age 6), and god help the early ones.

This is the first species of snake that I have kept that has required me to find the best exotic veterinarians in any given area, with better than average reptile experience.

Initially due to dealing with "farmed" animals.

But...although I will say that they are a hardy species when cbb, which is in agreement with the current consensus of most keepers, I will have to say they are delicate. Even though in my post on MVF of some parasite ova pics I said the only difficult thing about them is when they are wild caught...I should retract that statement.

Not true at all. Otherwise I wouldn't need to go to the vet now would I?

How many corn snake owners need to go to the vet? Not many...unless entirely incompetent (or new).

For the record...there are no "farmed" chondros, except from one importer. I will stand to be corrected if someone provides evidence to the contrary. The "farms" are fronts.

To make it simple..."farmed"= Wild caught.

To all persons concerned in this transaction, take a look at the parasite pics and wake up.

These animals have dropped in price due to demand to a level where they are in the zone of abuse that befalls other critters (which is sad).

They are still the tricky green tree pythons they always were.

The OP needs to take care of his animal.

The accused need to think if they are willing to deal with vending chondros or not.

If that animal was 275.00, it was dirt cheap wholesale.

It is wild caught. Period.

I will bet money I can find at least one type of ova in that animal if I had to check.

The crime here was stating "it has been treated for parasites".

The problem was listening to that one.

A lot of people will claim that...and I do not like the average "treating for parasites" if in fact it has been "done".

So, one wrong.

Unlikely the animal developed an R.I. on the way back from the show.

If present, it had it to begin with.

The sores could be from a rodent, but probably there in the first place.

The OP should have noticed.

There are a ton of ads on kingsnake right now, and probably on here as well. And I guarantee you that if I purchased a chondro from one of these ads, well, a few in particular, and think I'm just going to be able to throw it in a cage and feed it mice...think again.

If someone told me any line of bull that all of these people run with...and I checked their story by checking the animal...I would have a ton of BOI threads started just with respect to chondro purchases.

And most of these people deserve it and then some.

The bottom line here now is, the animal does not appear to be on deaths door from pics...find the very best reptile vet you can and deal with the situation.

I could be wrong on the condition. I cannot tell online.

Now the chondro will be closer to what they should sell for...if cbb.

Once again, quit talking about farms, unless you want bacon.

 

[Mike Schultz]

I never said anything about farms, you keep bringing that up for some reason. I told him it was a wildcaught animal and would need to be treated for parasites. Not my fault that he saw the price tag and then heard what he wanted to hear.

There werent any sores or noticable respiratory issues when I sold it. I very clearly laid out that he was buying an imported animal and its not my fault if he didnt know what that meant in terms of commitment.

 

[Teatime]

"The cheap comes out expensive" as they say. I wonder what's going to happen to this snake now. The OP allegedly wants a refund. The seller offered to take the snake back for no refund. I don't want to assume, but I take it that the animal is not getting any vet care in the meantime...

 

[SoCalAce]

I have been keeping reptiles since 1977 (age 6), and God help the early ones.

This made me laugh. "I put him in a jar with a stick and a leaf, because that's what he's used to. And I poked some holes for air because he's [darn] sure used to air."- Mitch Hedberg

 

[MikeCurtin]

What are the plans for this animal....veterinary or otherwise?

Affordability of a live animal goes well beyond sticker price.

 

[dhaisten]

I never said anything about farms, you keep bringing that up for some reason. I told him it was a wildcaught animal and would need to be treated for parasites. Not my fault that he saw the price tag and then heard what he wanted to hear.

There werent any sores or noticable respiratory issues when I sold it. I very clearly laid out that he was buying an imported animal and its not my fault if he didnt know what that meant in terms of commitment.

I'm not saying you said it was farmed. Just trying to beat it into peoples head the whole green tree python "farm" situation. Most sellers try to run with that one. I wasn't there, so I cannot say what was and was not said.

I am putting out a definition of terms for anyone that reads this thread, what farmed green tree python means. What it means is someone is trying to make a sale because they are worried the animal will not sell if they are honest.

If a seller has b*lls and says straight up what the deal is...wild caught...then kudos to them.

But then you have to ask yourself, do I want to sell chondros with issues that the average person can not or more likely will not (or a combination of both) deal with? There are better places to get chondros from, as in wholesale from the actual farm, if you are a retailer. The price point is just a little bit more.

As for the R.I. and the sores, the buyer had time to inspect the animal for sores.

The R.I. did not likely materialize instantaneously without being present prior.

Depends on the level of R.I and if there was indeed an R.I.

In chondros they come on very light, and once full blown the animal goes real fast. They do not hold on like other pythons with some snot bubbles for a while before dropping dead.

But as you said, you said the animal is wild caught. That right there is honest and after that anything is fair game with a green tree python.

They can get R.I.s from parasitic lungworms such as Rhadias spp. and from parasitic basal arthropods known as pentastomids, which live in the lungs, which we could get if we ate a snake turd or failed to wash our hands after coming into contact with sputum from the mouth of a snake. And, there is no effective cure for pentastomids.

So, secondary bacterial infection from parasitic activities, or chondros will just get an R.I. from slightly improper conditions, and/or stress related immunosupression.

But again, wild caught means wild caught. Seller off the hook at that point, but the heresay of whether or not the animal was previously treated for parasites and could be considered clean (not likely) is a possible issue. If this was said.

When someone tells me that I do not listen. And it doesn't matter what they tell me when it comes to chondros because I can generally tell by looking (and by "locality") what its origins are and what I am in for. But this is gained from experience (and there is always more to be had).

But if someone tells me the animal is wild caught straight up, I have more respect for them. And I already know the deal (almost always) before they move their lips anyway. So just a matter of respect at that point. But I have heard many stories that follow a similar theme.

So, as Mike Curtin mentioned, is this animal going to receive the care it needs to thrive? It will likely thrive and grow up to be a beautiful solid animal.