Info Bad experience with Vinny Buccigrossi

[charleshanklin]

Vinny,

Do you make it a habit of sending out animals with mites?

And both parties, could we please see the e-mails mentioned?

As far as mites go, I received close to 20 snakes from Vinny and all of them were super healthy and mite free. I would have no problem doing a deal with him again. He did apologize and give money back for the treatment which is more than a number of people that have sent me that wonderful gift that keeps giving. A few people have very good reputations as well.

The impaction just seems a little odd to me. I have had a few snakes that it has happened to and it seems you just don't know until it's too late.

 

[KelliH]

I think it would be a good idea for the OP to post a scanned copy of the vet report.

 

[Insomniac101]

WARNING: GRAPHIC PHOTOS!

Sorry this took so long; I work a long shift on Mondays. This is the x-ray photo of the impaction. Also, a photo taken after the snake was euthanized. As stated in my original post, I opted not to have the surgery done per the vet's fair-to-poor prognosis, and the cost of the procedure.

Dr. Schwartz is a member of the Association of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians. He has been in private practice since 1977.

I don't know what more I can add to this. I believe that I am not out of line to ask for a refund for the snake. I realize that the time elapsed was slightly over a month, but I gave the snake time to settle before attempting to feed him. Personally, I give a 30-day health guarantee on any animals that I sell. Problems like these take time to become apparent. The time between the x-rays and euthanization was one week in order to give the enema, warm soaks, oral fluids and medication time to work. The vet tried to manually move the mass, but had to stop for fear of breaking the ribs.

I decided to decline the offer of a replacement snake. I spent an entire day cleaning and disinfecting my quarantine room. I also re-treated all cages and animals for mites, since several have another 4-6 weeks to stay in quarantine. I also don't want another animal with a possible protozoa infection. Vinny indicated that his snakes share cages while cleaning, and these organisms are passed in the stools.

Thank you all for your replies, both pro and con.

Kathy

 

[VinnyButch]

Last post

Kathy,

You were right in your 'graphic images' warning. At the same time, I know you aren't trying to assert that the snake looked anything like that when you got him. As we've already concluded that you stated you were happy with him. You also state (in a roundabout way) that you didn't see any mites on him when you got him. Only after you treated him did you see some dead mites on the cage substrate.
By the way DAND, (does that stand for Dumb an Dumber?) if Kathy didn't see mites moving on the snake when she set him up in a quarantine cage, I guess we'll both have to visit the opthamologist, huh?
And you're correct (for a change) in that I didn't question Kathy's claim of mites for a second. I totally took her word for it and refunded her TWICE what she asked for to compensate for any trouble the mites might have caused her. No questions asked.
And as stated in Kathy's first post, she treated the snake for the mites, then told me he had mites and she needed to purchase RidMite to do the treatment. I guess you feel that lying about such a situation to get a partial refund is not a problem, but having shipped a snake that MAY have had mites is something of a felony.
I say 'MAY' have had mites because, in my book, once you've lied about something your credibility is pretty much shot after that.
Kathy, you say that you offer a thirty day guarantee on any animal you sell. I'm sure you do, and as of yet it's never bitten you in the butt, but either way, this was over thirty days anyway. As a matter of fact, Paypal told you they couldn't help you because the purchase was more than 45 days old. Of course if the situation was reversed, I'm sure you'd have made an exception on your 30 day rule for me, right?
Your last post seemed to indicate you were done with the he said/she said of this thread. It's one thing we agree on. Everyone has to make their own decisions on where they should spend their money. I won't revisit this thread again, either.

 

[Lucille]

Vinny

Stay on the high road and don't insult other members.

You got a report of mites, you sent $50. The snake had some physical problems long after he was in the possession of the buyer and you still offered a replacement.

I tend to agree with those who said that after that long period of time, it is difficult to say that this is your fault. I think your offer of a replacement snake was a good offer and I think that is enough.

If this was some other type of illness and injury that could clearly be traced to you, I think it would be different.

 

[MedusaCoils]

I can see that you are concerned about the length of time between the time Kathy received her snake and when the problem"s" occurred. I would too! You seem like a decent person, who cares for these animals. This is evident by your gesture and handling of the mite situation. I am a little surprised by your stance, regarding this situation. What do you have to lose, really? A few hundred dollars.

You have the opportunity to take the high road, save a little reputation and make a really dissatisfied customer, a little happier. I don't think she is asking for a whole lot, considering she would settle for just a refund. She could be seeking a refund and her vet costs. But she is not!

You have to think too, that there is a possibility that this snake may have had this problem, before you sold it but it just wasn't exhibiting any symptoms. Considering the possibility, wouldn't you want to make the situation right? If you bought this snake from someone and this occurred, how would you feel?

Whatever your decision, good luck, to both of you!

Wayne

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

I can see that you are concerned about the length of time between the time Kathy received her snake and when the problem"s" occurred. I would too! You seem like a decent person, who cares for these animals. This is evident by your gesture and handling of the mite situation. I am a little surprised by your stance, regarding this situation. What do you have to lose, really? A few hundred dollars.

You have the opportunity to take the high road, save a little reputation and make a really dissatisfied customer, a little happier. I don't think she is asking for a whole lot, considering she would settle for just a refund. She could be seeking a refund and her vet costs. But she is not!

You have to think too, that there is a possibility that this snake may have had this problem, before you sold it but it just wasn't exhibiting any symptoms. Considering the possibility, wouldn't you want to make the situation right? If you bought this snake from someone and this occurred, how would you feel?

Whatever your decision, good luck, to both of you!

Wayne

I think this is a very excellent post. Well thought out.

Either way, And regardless of my feelings on the timeframe this could have happened in, and what "I" would personally do... I do tend to agree that the offer of a replacement that was refused is a pretty fair option, and that was the buyers choice to decline.

I think this was an unfortunate situation for the both of these people.

 

[Twizted Paths]

The guarantee expired, a new snake was still offered and the offer was refused. In my eyes the seller has taken the high road, slip and fell a bit with the insult but still.

He fulfilled his TOS and then some. I don't see how a seller should be held responsible this far from the delivery date & outside of their TOS.

 

[kmurphy]

You have the opportunity to take the high road, save a little reputation and make a really dissatisfied customer, a little happier.

Vinny's already made an attempt at making a dissatisfied customer a little happier, to no avail. He's already taken the "high road" IMO by offering the replacement.

I asked this before. Was the snake opened to find out what caused the impaction?

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

I asked this before. Was the snake opened to find out what caused the impaction?

I was thinking this, and must have missed your post. Id like to know this as well..... WHAT caused that impaction. Thats bad enough that i would NOT have kept feeding that animal.....

 

[MedusaCoils]

The guarantee expired, a new snake was still offered and the offer was refused. In my eyes the seller has taken the high road, slip and fell a bit with the insult but still.

He fulfilled his TOS and then some. I don't see how a seller should be held responsible this far from the delivery date & outside of their TOS.

Vinny's already made an attempt at making a dissatisfied customer a little happier, to no avail. He's already taken the "high road" IMO by offering the replacement.

I was just making an observation as a person who likes to read the BOI, on occasion. I read this entire thread and I can see that Vinny, seems to be a caring person.

I sometimes think that in our business, it's more about doing what is right by our customers, then about our "TOS" agreements. In my opinion, I think a TOS is a guarantee to our customers that we stand behind the animals that we sell. Not a "we stand behind our animals, as long as it's inside the terms of our TOS and is something goes wrong, outside of that time, then is sorry about your luck" agreement! Granted, there are times when we need to put our foot down, but is this one of them?

Yes, Vinny did offer a replacement snake to Kathy. But, can you blame Kathy for not taking that offer, considering that she had 2 (two) problems with the snake that she received? Would you have taken the replacement, considering? I certainly wouldn't have! And, I don't get the impression that Kathy is looking for a hand out. All I think she is trying to do, is become semi whole in this situation. She did pay $400 for something and what does she have to show for it? That's not including the Veterinary costs associated with that animal, that she only had for five or six weeks.

To me, sometimes, it's more about doing what is morally right, then what is outlined in a TOS agreement! Especially, when there is a possibility that the problem could have existed prior to selling the animal. But hey, that is JMO!


Wayne

 

[rosebud945]

Kathy, I do have a question about the use of Flagyl. Did the vet actually do a fecal exam and find protozoans? You say he did the fecal and prescribed the flagyl, but what exactly did he find? I ask because sometimes vets will give flagyl, or other anti protozoic or antibiotic drugs as a precaution.

Also, did you happen to take a pic of the snake shortly after it arrived? I am curious to know what caused the impaction. I wish that the vet had done a necropsy so that we would have a better idea about how this happened. Certainly, mites, and a protozoic infection if present can cause stress, and so can Provent a Mite even when the user follows the instructions to the letter. I think it is possible that the impaction was stress induced from one or the other or all of the above plus the added stress of shipping, especially if the snake got dehydrated. I will also add that both intestinal and external parasites can remain dormant until the animal is stressed and develops a weakened immune system from the stress.

Just curious.

 

[akaangela]

I would like to know how this impaction got to be so bad. I mean come on I look at my snakes before I feed them. If they have an obvious belly, I don't feed again, no matter how long it has been(and I check my temps and everything else trying to figure out WHY my snake didn't digest his/her meal). I find it hard to believe something this bad happened so fast that the op couldn't see it coming on. How big was the mass when you first took the snake to the vet? I think Vinny's offer was fair. It is more than some breeders would offer. IMHO Vinny tried to make it right and the op refused.

 

[Seamus Haley]

This is mostly a gut feeling thing, based on the small amounts of evidence that have been presented and some of the timelines and wording.

Vinny feels more honest.

He's made several attempts to treat Kathleen fairly, he hasn't seen any mites in his collection, none of his other customers reported any mite issues, Kathleen has animals from multiple sources in her quarantine area- but he immediately sent off enough money to cover mite treatment. Personally I'm not even convinced that he was the source of the mites.

Five weeks is plenty of time for an animal to become impacted and develop health issues. More than enough; really the duration of time between the start of a clogging problem and the development of severe health issues as a result of that condition can vary dramatically depending on what the contents of the gut are, the temperatures the animal is being kept at, the digestive health of the animal and all the other little subtle factors that can have an effect on physiological responses. Unless the animal was necropsied (why wasn't this animal necropsied?) and the item causing the impaction was something with Vinny's name on it, I don't see how it can be thrown back at him. If it were a substrate that he uses but she doesn't... alright, there's cause for some discussion. If it's rat parts then it's an unknown- with a strong bias towards the person who's had it in their care for over a month being the responsible party.

Kathleen's vet performed a fecal? A fecal that required... feces? Feces produced by this snake? It wasn't impacted at some point during her possession of it then if it was passing solid waste. Unless the vet performed a fecal on a pile of liquid and urates, in which case- Kathleen needs to find a new vet because hers is incompetent.

I'd like to see a specific timeline of symptoms. Exact dates and times when the snake was fed (it kept on eating, indicating- although not proving- it was behaviorally keyed to feeding, which digestive distress often prevents), when it produced feces and when the swelling appeared and how the swelling advanced. Of course, I'd also like to see a necropsy and an identification of the substance or substances that were backed up in there.

Given the time frames involved, an offer of a replacement seemed quite fair. It was rejected. I'd call it a day too, case closed, attempts were made to satisfy the customer in a reasonable manner and the customer held out for unreasonable demands under the circumstances. Fifty bucks for mite treatment? An offer of a replacement animal a month after the guarantee had expired? Vinny seems like he's pretty trustworthy and willing to go quite a distance to make his customers satisfied. Some people just demand more than they are entitled to, which isn't remotely his fault.

 

[ExecutiveReptiles]

I was just making an observation as a person who likes to read the BOI, on occasion. I read this entire thread and I can see that Vinny, seems to be a caring person.

I sometimes think that in our business, it's more about doing what is right by our customers, then about our "TOS" agreements. In my opinion, I think a TOS is a guarantee to our customers that we stand behind the animals that we sell. Not a "we stand behind our animals, as long as it's inside the terms of our TOS and is something goes wrong, outside of that time, then is sorry about your luck" agreement! Granted, there are times when we need to put our foot down, but is this one of them?

Yes, Vinny did offer a replacement snake to Kathy. But, can you blame Kathy for not taking that offer, considering that she had 2 (two) problems with the snake that she received? Would you have taken the replacement, considering? I certainly wouldn't have! And, I don't get the impression that Kathy is looking for a hand out. All I think she is trying to do, is become semi whole in this situation. She did pay $400 for something and what does she have to show for it? That's not including the Veterinary costs associated with that animal, that she only had for five or six weeks.

To me, sometimes, it's more about doing what is morally right, then what is outlined in a TOS agreement! Especially, when there is a possibility that the problem could have existed prior to selling the animal. But hey, that is JMO!


Wayne

I agree 100%...I have been following this thread, and for me I am going through the same thing right now, but from the sellers view, I sold ball python that was feeding on F/T rats, 3 months ago, I get an e-mail from the person who I sold her too, telling me that he has never gotten the snake to feed, I stood by my word that the snake I sold them was a f/t rat feeder, and could not offer an explanation as to why the snake wasn't feeding for them, I have now refunded the money for the snake and they are shipping it back to me. This is a well known and respected person, and personally I feel 3 months is way past the "TOS" but I stand behind my word that it was a perfect feeder.

Another thing to note, Carpet Python people are an interesting crowd, you see you can't just "Replace" a carpet python, they are so unique and individual that Kathy purchased this snake I am sure becuase of a certain look she liked about it, you can't just offer a replacement thinking that will work, they are not carbon copies of each other. Plus if the first one came in with mites, I sure as heck wouldn't want another one comming in with mites. Its not worth the risk....

I am glad she posted, as I for sure will not be buying from the idividual in the future...but I am sure they don't care about me...

 

[ExecutiveReptiles]

Addition: Sure looks to me as thought Kathy paid $400 for a snake with intestinal problems, and a few weeks time those problems came to light, and she did everything in her power to save and fix the problem, took the snake to a qualified Herp Vet, contacted the seller to tell them about the problem, what more could you ask for from Kathy? She recieved a snake with mites, had that snake die in a few weeks time, and was offered another possibly mite infested snake that was NO WHERE near the same as the original one.

If I where Vin I would just refund the $400 dollars and make it right, I would have to agree with the Herp Vet that in the time frame and feedings Kathy did, this snake had the problem before it was in kathy's hands, a few weeks for something like this to happen is to quick, I agree that the two feedings Kathy did brought this problem to light.

Also, Kathy is not a newb, she keeps and breeds Carpet Pythons, as do I, and I have never seen a carpet develope issues like that, that quickly, She was sold a problem snake all around, and that snake ended up dying in a few weeks time, she deserves a refund in my opinion.

 

[lanceheads]

Seamus:
"Kathleen's vet performed a fecal? A fecal that required... feces? Feces produced by this snake? It wasn't impacted at some point during her possession of it then if it was passing solid waste."

Uh, that's not required, "solid waste".
A Vet can do a fecal swab inside the cloaca and get the same results. Especially with a snake that looks impacted. No "outside" fecal matter required!
Randal Berry

 

[rosebud945]

Seamus:
"Kathleen's vet performed a fecal? A fecal that required... feces? Feces produced by this snake? It wasn't impacted at some point during her possession of it then if it was passing solid waste."

Uh, that's not required, "solid waste".
A Vet can do a fecal swab inside the cloaca and get the same results. Especially with a snake that looks impacted. No "outside" fecal matter required!
Randal Berry

Yes, solid waste is necessary for the most accurate reading. A vet can look at a swab from the cloaca or try to scope a urate sample, but unless the infestation or infection is severe, it can be negative while protozoans are present in the intestines. I know this because I have taken urate samples from emaciated or impacted rescues and the rescues themselves to my vet, and he fusses at me and tells me to try to get a better sample. LOL!

Vets will prescribe meds if they suspect an infection, and some drugs also do double duty, ie, they have a secondary effect and are prescribed for it.

I am not doubting the competence of the vet, but would like to know the specific infection that he found before we claim that the snake in fact had two infestations.

 

[rosebud945]

Also, flagyl is both an anti protozoic and an anti bacterial drug. The vet could have prescribed it to combat suspected build up of intestinal bacteria caused by the impaction itself, unless Kathy tells us otherwise.

 

[Lucille]

She was sold a problem snake all around,

Many of the readers here are experienced keepers, and simply because you decided to award guilt (unsupported at this point) does not mean others must buy into your speculations and accusations.