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Bad Guy BEWARE.. Ballboutique (Rick Denmon) FALSE ADVERTISING!!

I believe that both the spider wobbles and the caramel kinks are due to genes that are linked with the gene that causes the morph. This is not known for sure, but the fact that no normal of a clutch that also produced caramels or spiders shows the defect (kinks or wobbling), would back this up. If that is the case, then no, it most likely can not be selectively bred out.

As far as my opinion goes (and it is only my opinion based on my education in genetics and what information I have gleaned about the morphs and their defects), caramels and spiders will always have their problems, even with careful breeding. Since the genes are most likely linked, you can't have the trait without also carrying the gene that causes the issues. The only solution will be to cull the severe wobblers and any caramels that exhibit any amount of kinking. Now, this isn't a huge issue, as only the minority of each morph show the defects. It is important to remain knowledgeable about it, and only breed the healthiest representatives of each morph.

Now, onto Rick's issue with David. David has posted an ad that has stated only honest facts. His female breeder does not exhibit wobbling, and neither do the offspring he has for sale. Is this a guarantee that they won't start wobbling in the future? No. Is David saying that they come with a wobble-free guarantee? No.

Rick on the other hand, said that his clutch of caramels showed no kinking when it clearly did. Now, it is possible that he just didn't notice the kink. I don't really believe that. I can't imagine what kind of breeder would post ads for their snakes without doing a thorough inspection beforehand to ensure that they are completely healthy. To say that his ad is in any way similar to David's is really grasping at straws. David has not been dishonest in is his ad, while Rick, intentionally or not, misrepresented his animals. If David sells the snake and it's wobbling up a storm straight out of the box then, of course, there would be an issue, but I highly doubt that would be the case.
 
Just like Rick to PM somebody who calls him out for what kind of person he is. I've heard of him doing that in the past. Like a stalker.

Rick, go back to selling your possible hets from 1997 that you've been trying to unload for years now. You were flipping for Joey C while making yourself out to be a big breeder. Like I would say to the other flippers who frequent this and other sites, peddling animals while maintaining no quarantine and with no care for the animal, prove it. Prove that you breed ANYTHING at all.

Disgusting...
 
jglass38 said:
Just like Rick to PM somebody who calls him out for what kind of person he is. I've heard of him doing that in the past. Like a stalker.

Rick, go back to selling your possible hets from 1997 that you've been trying to unload for years now. You were flipping for Joey C while making yourself out to be a big breeder. Like I would say to the other flippers who frequent this and other sites, peddling animals while maintaining no quarantine and with no care for the animal, prove it. Prove that you breed ANYTHING at all.

Disgusting...
Click to expand...
Please my little friend.
Last flip I made was last year....I am flip free!
And you have NO idea how I keep animals quarantined.
Have you visited my facility....no!
I think you are funny! Better get that spider fast! zoom zoom
Ya got to get updated......
 
BallBoutique said:
Please my little friend.
Last flip I made was last year....I am flip free!
And you have NO idea how I keep animals quarantined.
Have you visited my facility....no!
I think you are funny! Better get that spider fast! zoom zoom
Ya got to get updated......
Click to expand...

It's good that you hang around to keep everyone laughing. The horrible pictures alone are funny enough, but when you add in the lying, deflecting and unintelligible posts it becomes downright hilarious!

Oh, and don't bother to try to send me one of your famous PMs or emails. Not interested...
 
jglass38 said:
It's good that you hang around to keep everyone laughing. The horrible pictures alone are funny enough, but when you add in the lying, deflecting and unintelligible posts it becomes downright hilarious!

Oh, and don't bother to try to send me one of your famous PMs or emails. Not interested...
Click to expand...
don't worry you don't deserve one!
 
Why is it such a chore, for someone called out here, to act like a reasonable, responsible adult, rather than a petulant third grader? So many times, on threads like this, I might have sided with the alleged 'Bad Guy', if only they showed the slightest amount of restraint, and professionalism when responding to claims.

PS No disrespect to responsible third graders.
 
Rick,
I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here and believe that you were not aware of the kinked animal.

Mostly because as a retired educator, I would hate to think that you would be so stupid as to post an ad with a severely kinked animal claiming that out of four eggs you got four Caramels and not one kink, and really think that this thread would not be started. It seems to me that you would have left that pic out of your ad if you were trying to scam someone. Then again, you were a music teacher...lol.

Stop trying to deflect the negative attention from yourself onto others in order to gain public approval. This thread is not about Dave R. and his Spider(even though he brought it here,) or whether or not you are mad at, talking to, care to talk to, or be friends with Joe C.

You admitted that the animal is severely kinked, and have taken her photo out of the ad and corrected the text. You also said that you are not going to sell her, and are going to care for her for life. I assume you are not going to breed her either, or at least "not necessarily."

Aside from not placing the kinked animal for sale in the first place, which I believe could have been an honest mistake, I think you have done everything possible to handle this situation like a "good guy."

Unless you are going to answer the question of how you handled and sexed that animal without noticing the severe kinking, even though you must have checked in order to claim that they were "kink free," I would suggest you let this thread sink.
 
Rick,

Is the kinked animal in the same clutch as the 1.1 pair you currently have for sale? If you are going to sell the other 3 anyways, it would be important to at least sell them to different individuals. After all 25% of this clutch showed the problem (they were 4 right?)! From the discussion here and elsewhere it seems that this type of "kinking" is genetic and thus hereditary. Selling a pair from this clutch will further compound this problem and might further jeopardize the future of this morph.
 
The BoidSmith said:
Rick,

Is the kinked animal in the same clutch as the 1.1 pair you currently have for sale? If you are going to sell the other 3 anyways, it would be important to at least sell them to different individuals. After all 25% of this clutch showed the problem (they were 4 right?)! From the discussion here and elsewhere it seems that this type of "kinking" is genetic and thus hereditary. Selling a pair from this clutch will further compound this problem and might further jeopardize the future of this morph.
Click to expand...


HOOOOOOOLD up!

Just want this cleared up...

Are you saying that breeders are supposed to be responsible for what our buyers do with the animals too?? Don't you think that's taking things a bit far? For all we know, the person could be buying them to put to entirely different morphs.
 
Personally, I think that a disclaimer of some sort saying: This line has kinks in it?...nah..that's not really a marketing theme.

Sooo maybe a disclaimer something like, Caramels are prone to kinking, it is not recommended to breed siblings of the same clutch together?
 
deborahbroadus said:
HOOOOOOOLD up!

Just want this cleared up...

Are you saying that breeders are supposed to be responsible for what our buyers do with the animals too?? Don't you think that's taking things a bit far? For all we know, the person could be buying them to put to entirely different morphs.
Click to expand...

Yes Deborah, that's exactly it. The seller is the only that can control the outcome to a certain extent. How? By out breeding the line. And you know what else? It’s on his best interest if he plans on being in the market for a long period of time. What will happen to his/her reputation if the buyer breeds the 1.1 and gets 50% kinks in the offspring? Is he going to be happy about it? When someone sells a 1.1 to another individual knowing that the breeding outcome will more than likely be worse he is perpetuating the problem. Remember the anophtalmia/microphtalmia of albino boas? It started just like this, with breeders culling baby blind boas (or selling them at a discount or for “pets”) and selling siblings with no apparent effects. Yes, it’s the seller the only one that can cull or take precautions to minimize the problem as it’s in his best interest.

Best
 
The BoidSmith said:
Yes Deborah, that's exactly it. The seller is the only that can control the outcome to a certain extent. How? By out breeding the line. And you know what else? It’s on his best interest if he plans on being in the market for a long period of time. What will happen to his/her reputation if the buyer breeds the 1.1 and gets 50% kinks in the offspring? Is he going to be happy about it? When someone sells a 1.1 to another individual knowing that the breeding outcome will more than likely be worse he is perpetuating the problem. Remember the anophtalmia/microphtalmia of albino boas? It started just like this, with breeders culling baby blind boas (or selling them at a discount or for “pets”) and selling siblings with no apparent effects. Yes, it’s the seller the only one that can cull or take precautions to minimize the problem as it’s in his best interest.

Best
Click to expand...

Whoooa!

I am not trying to go off on a tangent here..but the argument isn't holding together for me. It seems illogical to imply that one line needs culling and oversight of the breeders to keep deformities down...while at the same time the general population is saying that the deformity of Spiders is "just a part of their make up."

All animals that have deformities in the line should be culled if that's the line of action we are going to take. The striving for "perfection" isn't an easily attainable goal.

Do we kill off human babies (cull) because they are deformed? That's reaching... I know..but this whole thing of "be perfect, or die,'" isn't something I believe is very "doable"(very deformed..yes..slightly..no).

I would be all for letting the buyer know the ratio of deformities..but trying to control who can buy what doesn't sit so well with me. Perhaps I just don't get it?
 
The BoidSmith said:
Yes Deborah, that's exactly it. The seller is the only that can control the outcome to a certain extent. How? By out breeding the line. And you know what else? It’s on his best interest if he plans on being in the market for a long period of time. What will happen to his/her reputation if the buyer breeds the 1.1 and gets 50% kinks in the offspring? Is he going to be happy about it? When someone sells a 1.1 to another individual knowing that the breeding outcome will more than likely be worse he is perpetuating the problem. Remember the anophtalmia/microphtalmia of albino boas? It started just like this, with breeders culling baby blind boas (or selling them at a discount or for “pets”) and selling siblings with no apparent effects. Yes, it’s the seller the only one that can cull or take precautions to minimize the problem as it’s in his best interest.

Best
Click to expand...
Why when I asked TSK if the male homo I purchased and the het female I also purchased from them tell me from the start that they both show kinks? She told me that yes they were compatible. I originally bought 1.1 hets.
It is a defect with them. They still are a great looking animal. I thought the different lines would out breed the kinks. Who knows next clutch might be perfect.
What was interesting was four eggs four caramels! Could that be genetic?
 
deborahbroadus said:
Whoooa!

I am not trying to go off on a tangent here..but the argument isn't holding together for me. It seems illogical to imply that one line needs culling and oversight of the breeders to keep deformities down...while at the same time the general population is saying that the deformity of Spiders is "just a part of their make up."

All animals that have deformities in the line should be culled if that's the line of action we are going to take. The striving for "perfection" isn't an easily attainable goal.

Do we kill off human babies (cull) because they are deformed? That's reaching... I know..but this whole thing of "be perfect, or die,'" isn't something I believe is very "doable"(very deformed..yes..slightly..no).

I would be all for letting the buyer know the ratio of deformities..but trying to control who can buy what doesn't sit so well with me. Perhaps I just don't get it?
Click to expand...

Perhaps the kinked female could produce all kink free animals!
 
The BoidSmith said:
Yes Deborah, that's exactly it. The seller is the only that can control the outcome to a certain extent. How? By out breeding the line. And you know what else? It’s on his best interest if he plans on being in the market for a long period of time. What will happen to his/her reputation if the buyer breeds the 1.1 and gets 50% kinks in the offspring? Is he going to be happy about it? When someone sells a 1.1 to another individual knowing that the breeding outcome will more than likely be worse he is perpetuating the problem. Remember the anophtalmia/microphtalmia of albino boas? It started just like this, with breeders culling baby blind boas (or selling them at a discount or for “pets”) and selling siblings with no apparent effects. Yes, it’s the seller the only one that can cull or take precautions to minimize the problem as it’s in his best interest.

Best
Click to expand...

I agree with the above. My problem is having to tell my customers what they can and can not buy. I think our reponsibility would be limited to educating them on what to expect from which animal.

It's all well and good to suggest to the next person how he should run his business...but there has to be a line somewhere or it becomes dictatorship. I brought some animals and nothing was said to me. I haven't been very please with some of the results that I have been getting, but that doesn't mean I feel like that person should be out of business for not revealing everything about the morph to me. At what point does the buyer assume responsiblity?
 
pcrooker said:
BUT they would have to be sold as being from KINKED LINES.. Much like your snake and it's siblings...
Click to expand...
I believe they ALL have that trait!
I crossed a Bell line to a SK line in breeding!
I have NEVER saw a caramel ad that said kink free! Have you?:shrug01:
 
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