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Bad Guy BEWARE.. Ballboutique (Rick Denmon) FALSE ADVERTISING!!

Although I think this is a little off topic for this thread, I think it could be an interesting topic for a discussion thread:

How many breeders sell a 1. visual morph with het female siblings and never mention to the customers that it would be best not to inbreed siblings?

How many sell Spiders and Pastels, Pins and Spiders, etc... that are opposite sex siblings together and do not suggest that they and their offspring not be bred to one another?

How many do so knowing that, and maybe even suggesting or marketing that they be purchased in order to be bred together.

Maybe even a poll:

How many people feel like it is a sellers responsibility to do their best to make sure that their customers are informed on the negative outcomes of inbreeding snakes, and are committed to not doing so?

How many feel that it is the customers responsibility, and not the sellers?

How many don't care, and do not think inbreeding is an issue with snakes?
(I have heard this many times.)
 
Whoooa!
I am not trying to go off on a tangent here..but the argument isn't holding together for me. It seems illogical to imply that one line needs culling and oversight of the breeders to keep deformities down...while at the same time the general population is saying that the deformity of Spiders is "just a part of their make up."

Let's not get anymore off topic. The original imported animals (including the first albino boa by Kahl) had no visible deffects. Part of their make up? No, not in my opinion, "we" made it up by heavy inbreeding.


Whoooa!
All animals that have deformities in the line should be culled if that's the line of action we are going to take. The striving for "perfection" isn't an easily attainable goal.

Yes, that's what we need to do if we want to raise healthy animals.

Whoooa!
Do we kill off human babies (cull) because they are deformed? That's reaching... I know..but this whole thing of "be perfect, or die,'" isn't something I believe is very "doable"(very deformed..yes..slightly..no).

Please, let's not make that comparison, shall we? :)

Whoooa!
I would be all for letting the buyer know the ratio of deformities..but trying to control who can buy what doesn't sit so well with me. Perhaps I just don't get it?

We are not controlling who can buy, we are just being proactive about a problem. Granted, one clutch is not enough proof but it appears very likely that both the dam and the sire have the genes for this deffect. Chances are that the offspring are also carriers. If you sell a breeding pair to one individual, three years from now he might be posting in the BOI about his experience with Ball Boutique. That's one thing I'm sure Rick doesn't want to happen.

The cat is out of the bag. Had we never seen that picture we would go on with our ignorance. But, we saw it, and now it's all about how the ublic perceives Rick handles this situation. By not selling the kinked animal we sweep the issue under the rug. The real problem is not that kinked ball but the siblings that are not showing it but carry the gene.

The most sensible thing to do would be not to sell these animals; that's not going to happen. The next option in line would be not to breed one to another. How? By selling male and female separately and hoping that we dilute the problem by out breeding.

Best
 
Why when I asked TSK if the male homo I purchased and the het female I also purchased from them tell me from the start that they both show kinks? She told me that yes they were compatible. I originally bought 1.1 hets.
It is a defect with them. They still are a great looking animal. I thought the different lines would out breed the kinks. Who knows next clutch might be perfect.
What was interesting was four eggs four caramels! Could that be genetic?

Maybe they missed it and you got the "reverse jackpot"; it doesn't really matter now. What it does matter though is that now you know it and have the possibility of doing something about it. The decision is all yours.
 
I believe they ALL have that trait!
I crossed a Bell line to a SK line in breeding!
I have NEVER saw a caramel ad that said kink free! Have you?:shrug01:

I think most of us can read very well, so at this point, if I were you..I would be careful what I posted.

BECAUSE: If you believe that all the lines have that trait..WHY would you say that yours were "kink free?" You did say that didn't you?

Your ad said it.:shrug01:
 
Let's not get anymore off topic. The original imported animals (including the first albino boa by Kahl) had no visible deffects. Part of their make up? No, not in my opinion, "we" made it up by heavy inbreeding.




Yes, that's what we need to do if we want to raise healthy animals.



Please, let's not make that comparison, shall we? :)



We are not controlling who can buy, we are just being proactive about a problem. Granted, one clutch is not enough proof but it appears very likely that both the dam and the sire have the genes for this deffect. Chances are that the offspring are also carriers. If you sell a breeding pair to one individual, three years from now he might be posting in the BOI about his experience with Ball Boutique. That's one thing I'm sure Rick doesn't want to happen.

The cat is out of the bag. Had we never seen that picture we would go on with our ignorance. But, we saw it, and now it's all about how the ublic perceives Rick handles this situation. By not selling the kinked animal we sweep the issue under the rug. The real problem is not that kinked ball but the siblings that are not showing it but carry the gene.

The most sensible thing to do would be not to sell these animals; that's not going to happen. The next option in line would be not to breed one to another. How? By selling male and female separately and hoping that we dilute the problem by out breeding.

Best


Understanding better. Thank you.
 
Quote The BoidSmith:
What it does matter though is that now you know it and have the possibility of doing something about it. The decision is all yours.
What exactly are you suggesting that Rick has the possibility to do something about here? Maybe I missed it but what is the decision he is facing?
Other then not putting anymore ads up until his eyesight returns to normal...:eek:

I agree that the siblings from this clutch should not be bred to each other.
(I don't think any siblings should be paired up.) If there is already a genetic kinking defect linked with the Caramel gene why make it worse through inbreeding?

I don't think that the offspring from this clutch are any more or less likely to produce kinked Caramels than any other Bell or SK line Caramel. I do think that they should be paired up with unrelated animals though.

It is absolutely unrealistic to expect every or any breeder with any other line of Caramel other than Mailsin line to keep or cull all of their Caramels. I am curious to know if the Mailsin line Caramel is compatible with the others, and also skeptical about that line actually being "kink free." Then again, I do not have a Caramel for just this reason, and am not knowledgeable about the Mailsin line.

So long as kinked offspring are not bred(the responsibility of the breeder,) and the kink free offspring are bred with unrelated animals(the responsibility of the informed customer,) I don't think it is that big of an issue.
I do think the customer should be made aware of the fact that Caramels(maybe other than the Mailsin line?) can produce kinked offspring, just as customers purchasing a Spider or Spider Combo should be informed of the fact that ALL Spiders can produce offspring that Wobble to some degree.
 
What exactly are you suggesting that Rick has the possibility to do something about here? Maybe I missed it but what is the decision he is facing?
Other then not putting anymore ads up until his eyesight returns to normal...:eek:

I agree that the siblings from this clutch should not be bred to each other.
(I don't think any siblings should be paired up.) If there is already a genetic kinking defect linked with the Caramel gene why make it worse through inbreeding?

I don't think that the offspring from this clutch are any more or less likely to produce kinked Caramels than any other Bell or SK line Caramel. I do think that they should be paired up with unrelated animals though.

It is absolutely unrealistic to expect every or any breeder with any other line of Caramel other than Mailsin line to keep or cull all of their Caramels. I am curious to know if the Mailsin line Caramel is compatible with the others, and also skeptical about that line actually being "kink free." Then again, I do not have a Caramel for just this reason, and am not knowledgeable about the Mailsin line.

So long as kinked offspring are not bred(the responsibility of the breeder,) and the kink free offspring are bred with unrelated animals(the responsibility of the informed customer,) I don't think it is that big of an issue.
I do think the customer should be made aware of the fact that Caramels(maybe other than the Mailsin line?) can produce kinked offspring, just as customers purchasing a Spider or Spider Combo should be informed of the fact that ALL Spiders can produce offspring that Wobble to some degree.

Broadly... very very broadly, there are three reasons traits can end up linked.

Multiple mutations located on the same allele. These cannot be bred out or avoided, one trait is irreversibly linked to the other and the entire project should be scrapped, all animals that have been produced that may be carriers culled and the concept should be erased from existance.

Multiple mutations located on seperate alleles where both traits were introduced early in a project, becoming linked due to the small avaliability of initial stock. These can be bred out with a great deal of time and effort, however since the siblings of all animals displaying either trait are potential carriers (depending on the genetic transmission of each trait), it's a long term, effort intensive project.

Physical, physiological or behavioral side effects of one of the traits being directly responsible for the other- meaning it's not actually two mutations, but a single mutation that results in a secondary display. A quick and dirty example- there was some hypothesis awhile back that people who were using heat lamps as a primary method of warming an enclosure might see smaller clutches and more slugs in oviviparous species when breeding albinos, the light sensitivity caused the mother to avoid the higher temperatures while gravid and it impacted the development of the offspring. Albinism didn't directly cause smaller clutches or runt offspring, but there was a behavioral change resulting from the primary trait being analyzed.

If a desireable trait (a color mutation for example) is linked to an undesireable trait (wobbling or high incidents of kinking for example), it should be the responsibility of every single person working with the trait to make every attempt to eliminate the negative trait. You state that you don't think it's reasonable to cull kinked siblings... I say it's irresponsible to do anything less.

If the traits are linked in the first manner, they can't be seperated. Ever. Every animal displaying trait one will display or carry trait two and all of them and anything related to them needs to be culled.

If the traits are linked in the second manner, line breeding or inbreeding animals that do not display the negative trait is a positive step, not a negative one. Line breeding doesn't cause mutations or problems by itself, it just exponentially reinforces everything present in an extremely limited genetic pool. If there's something negative in the genetics of the animals being used, it is more likely to surface and be expressed. If there's nothing negative in the genetics of the animals being used, it can theoretically be done forever with no bad consequences. While the potential for negatives in outwardly positive stock will remain an unknown and line breeding is inherently risking the expression of something negative that was dormant and extremely recessive- in stock where there's a known and quantifiable negative trait associated with a positive one, line breeding animals that do not display the negative trait is a good thing... not a bad thing. Line breeding animals that display or are related to animals that have displayed the negative trait is obviously not good.

If the traits are linked in the third manner, it's a bit of a crap shoot. It can't be bred out but it may be worked around with husbandry tweaks. Something as simple as an emphasis on vitamin supplimentation or using non-illuminating heat sources may do the trick... or it may be too complex or have too signifigant an impact to adjust around. Depending on the specifics, it either means a project should be scrapped completely or possibly worked with till a solution is found.

No matter what the cause is or how expensive the morph may have been though, anyone choosing to breed animals has a responsibility to propogate positive traits and eliminate negative ones. Not everyone lives up to that responsibility- the existance of irresponsible people does not itself excuse irresponsibility though.

Rick has in his posession (probably anyway, provided it wasn't MKR animals and MKR photos and he isn't lying about how he and Joe aren't buddies anymore- I tried checking out his site to match photographs or backgrounds and it was a mish-mash of various substrates, angles and backgrounds, no way to tell really) an animal that is displaying a negative trait that is strongly and frequently associated with a particular morph. The responsible thing to do would be to cull all of the resulting offspring, including those not outwardly displaying the kink and any which displayed neither the kink or the color, split up the parents and never allow those two animals to copulate again.

The irresponsible thing to do is advertise them for sale as being from a kink free clutch.

Or remove the photo of the kinked one and still advertise them as being from a kink free clutch.

Or remove the line about being from a kink free clutch and just call them kink free with no mention of the kinked sibling. It's a lie of omission at the very best- a malicious attempt to fraudulently hype animals that have a high probability of being genetic carriers of an extremely negative trait at worst.
 
In political debate terms, I'm with what "that one" above said. ;)
 
Broadly... very very broadly, there are three reasons traits can end up linked.

Multiple mutations located on the same allele. These cannot be bred out or avoided, one trait is irreversibly linked to the other and the entire project should be scrapped, all animals that have been produced that may be carriers culled and the concept should be erased from existance.

Multiple mutations located on seperate alleles where both traits were introduced early in a project, becoming linked due to the small avaliability of initial stock. These can be bred out with a great deal of time and effort, however since the siblings of all animals displaying either trait are potential carriers (depending on the genetic transmission of each trait), it's a long term, effort intensive project.

Physical, physiological or behavioral side effects of one of the traits being directly responsible for the other- meaning it's not actually two mutations, but a single mutation that results in a secondary display. A quick and dirty example- there was some hypothesis awhile back that people who were using heat lamps as a primary method of warming an enclosure might see smaller clutches and more slugs in oviviparous species when breeding albinos, the light sensitivity caused the mother to avoid the higher temperatures while gravid and it impacted the development of the offspring. Albinism didn't directly cause smaller clutches or runt offspring, but there was a behavioral change resulting from the primary trait being analyzed.

If a desireable trait (a color mutation for example) is linked to an undesireable trait (wobbling or high incidents of kinking for example), it should be the responsibility of every single person working with the trait to make every attempt to eliminate the negative trait. You state that you don't think it's reasonable to cull kinked siblings... I say it's irresponsible to do anything less.

If the traits are linked in the first manner, they can't be seperated. Ever. Every animal displaying trait one will display or carry trait two and all of them and anything related to them needs to be culled.

If the traits are linked in the second manner, line breeding or inbreeding animals that do not display the negative trait is a positive step, not a negative one. Line breeding doesn't cause mutations or problems by itself, it just exponentially reinforces everything present in an extremely limited genetic pool. If there's something negative in the genetics of the animals being used, it is more likely to surface and be expressed. If there's nothing negative in the genetics of the animals being used, it can theoretically be done forever with no bad consequences. While the potential for negatives in outwardly positive stock will remain an unknown and line breeding is inherently risking the expression of something negative that was dormant and extremely recessive- in stock where there's a known and quantifiable negative trait associated with a positive one, line breeding animals that do not display the negative trait is a good thing... not a bad thing. Line breeding animals that display or are related to animals that have displayed the negative trait is obviously not good.

If the traits are linked in the third manner, it's a bit of a crap shoot. It can't be bred out but it may be worked around with husbandry tweaks. Something as simple as an emphasis on vitamin supplimentation or using non-illuminating heat sources may do the trick... or it may be too complex or have too signifigant an impact to adjust around. Depending on the specifics, it either means a project should be scrapped completely or possibly worked with till a solution is found.

No matter what the cause is or how expensive the morph may have been though, anyone choosing to breed animals has a responsibility to propogate positive traits and eliminate negative ones. Not everyone lives up to that responsibility- the existance of irresponsible people does not itself excuse irresponsibility though.

Rick has in his posession (probably anyway, provided it wasn't MKR animals and MKR photos and he isn't lying about how he and Joe aren't buddies anymore- I tried checking out his site to match photographs or backgrounds and it was a mish-mash of various substrates, angles and backgrounds, no way to tell really) an animal that is displaying a negative trait that is strongly and frequently associated with a particular morph. The responsible thing to do would be to cull all of the resulting offspring, including those not outwardly displaying the kink and any which displayed neither the kink or the color, split up the parents and never allow those two animals to copulate again.

The irresponsible thing to do is advertise them for sale as being from a kink free clutch.

Or remove the photo of the kinked one and still advertise them as being from a kink free clutch.

Or remove the line about being from a kink free clutch and just call them kink free with no mention of the kinked sibling. It's a lie of omission at the very best- a malicious attempt to fraudulently hype animals that have a high probability of being genetic carriers of an extremely negative trait at worst.


This is a topic that some of us may want to explore further..I certainly do...Ceamus, can you copy and paste this in the business section so we can explore your statement? Because while Rick may have been wrong..it appears (from a clutch that I got) that a LOT of big breeders are doing exactly what he's doing and they aren't in Fauna to be caught. Some of us may not see exactly what he's doing so wrong after spending so much on his animals except the "lying."
 
This is a topic that some of us may want to explore further..I certainly do...Ceamus, can you copy and paste this in the business section so we can explore your statement? Because while Rick may have been wrong..it appears (from a clutch that I got) that a LOT of big breeders are doing exactly what he's doing and they aren't in Fauna to be caught. Some of us may not see exactly what he's doing so wrong after spending so much on his animals except the "lying."

The cost of the morph shouldn't enter into it, from an ethical perspective.

It's inappropriate to say "Animals displaying negative traits should be culled, as should any probable carriers of negative genetic conditions, expressed or not." and then qualify it with "Unless they cost more than $XXXX.XX"

When someone decides to make a living off the propogation of live animals, they should go into it with the appropriate attitude. They should seek to always improve captive populations and they should recognize the inherent risks they have assumed by choosing this vehicle as an investment. If they can't afford to do it ethically, then they shouldn't be doing it at all.

Fauna members are most often concerened with legalities- right and wrong when it comes to dollars and contracts. Intentionally propogating negative traits in a captive population is at least as bad as stealing; it screws over everybody.

'course Rick was trying to thieve as well. He lied in an ad, misrepresented animals. Got caught, lied again and just pulled the proof of it. Got caught, left his omission and failure to disclose information to lie for him. He's a thief, he steals.
 
The cost of the morph shouldn't enter into it, from an ethical perspective.

It's inappropriate to say "Animals displaying negative traits should be culled, as should any probable carriers of negative genetic conditions, expressed or not." and then qualify it with "Unless they cost more than $XXXX.XX"

When someone decides to make a living off the propogation of live animals, they should go into it with the appropriate attitude. They should seek to always improve captive populations and they should recognize the inherent risks they have assumed by choosing this vehicle as an investment. If they can't afford to do it ethically, then they shouldn't be doing it at all.

Fauna members are most often concerened with legalities- right and wrong when it comes to dollars and contracts. Intentionally propogating negative traits in a captive population is at least as bad as stealing; it screws over everybody.

'course Rick was trying to thieve as well. He lied in an ad, misrepresented animals. Got caught, lied again and just pulled the proof of it. Got caught, left his omission and failure to disclose information to lie for him. He's a thief, he steals.

Perhaps I should advertise that the Bell line and the Snake Keerpers line produce kinked animals. These are the parents I purchased from the Snake Keepers. The pair that I bred produce one kinked animal out of four. Would that be ok? Then the following time I could continue to give percents. Now how about we get RDR, VPI, TSK, Bell all to do the same to be fair to all potential buyers....
I think that could stop the breeding of these great looking morps. Also same should be done with all morphs.
If I caught that kink I sure as hell would have kept my mouth shut like the other breeders and sell the non kinked ones. Oh I had seen a caramel baby that had no eyes....interesting? Never saw a disclaimer in that persons ad!
And no I will not disclose the name. I did not buy from them.......But I believe they came from one of the above breeders.
 
A few notes on what Seamus mentioned about gene linkages. He mentioned that there are three ways in which two different phenotypes can be linked. The first way he mentioned (two genes on one allele) CAN be bred out, but would be INCREDIBLY costly and would take many generations to occur. Recombinations do occur frequently during meiosis, in which case, it is possible for them to become separated. The process would take more time and money than people have. So while theoretically possible, it's practically impossible.

If the genes are on different alleles, but are linked due to poor genetic diversity, then it is much easier to breed out. However, I don't feel that is the case with either spiders or caramels. Unless I'm wrong, the defects only show up with those exhibiting the morph, which would mean that the defect is caused by the same gene as the desired morph or the two genes are located so closely together on the same allele that they are unable to unlink through recombinations. If they were on different alleles then people would have found kinked normals or wobbling normals from clutches producing or produced by caramels or spiders by now.

Now, this is a highly simplified view the possibilities that could be occurring with the traits. They could be a multitude of genes working together, in which case it would take either a lot of genetic work or years of careful breeding to determine. I think ending any breeding of the morphs is not necessary and not at all likely to happen. In my opinion, the best thing to do is to cull any obvious examples of the defects and keep extremely careful breeding notes to help determine the genetic basis of these defects. Unfortunately, as Rick has already shown, full disclosure and complete honesty is not always maintained in this hobby.
 
A few notes on what Seamus mentioned about gene linkages. He mentioned that there are three ways in which two different phenotypes can be linked. The first way he mentioned (two genes on one allele) CAN be bred out, but would be INCREDIBLY costly and would take many generations to occur. Recombinations do occur frequently during meiosis, in which case, it is possible for them to become separated. The process would take more time and money than people have. So while theoretically possible, it's practically impossible.

If the genes are on different alleles, but are linked due to poor genetic diversity, then it is much easier to breed out. However, I don't feel that is the case with either spiders or caramels. Unless I'm wrong, the defects only show up with those exhibiting the morph, which would mean that the defect is caused by the same gene as the desired morph or the two genes are located so closely together on the same allele that they are unable to unlink through recombinations. If they were on different alleles then people would have found kinked normals or wobbling normals from clutches producing or produced by caramels or spiders by now.

Now, this is a highly simplified view the possibilities that could be occurring with the traits. They could be a multitude of genes working together, in which case it would take either a lot of genetic work or years of careful breeding to determine. I think ending any breeding of the morphs is not necessary and not at all likely to happen. In my opinion, the best thing to do is to cull any obvious examples of the defects and keep extremely careful breeding notes to help determine the genetic basis of these defects. Unfortunately, as Rick has already shown, full disclosure and complete honesty is not always maintained in this hobby.


Very good post! :thumbsup:

While I am in no way supporting Rick for his failure to practice 'Truth in advertising,' in my opinion, it's unfair to penalize him to such a degree as to require "culling" or going above and beyond breeder practices so as to ensure that buyers are protected from their own ignorance.

The fact remains that the "big" breeders gave us this stock to work with. Who's watching them?? Why did this stock make it to the market in the first place? I know it's unethical to sell "sick" stock, but where does breeder responsiblity end? I am as much a "purist" as anyone, but when the stock we are buying is brought with undisclosed (or even hidden (lied)) defects we may end up having to cull ALL our animals as they are hatched (far-fetched..but not too) if we institute the kind of breeding practices that it appears are suggested here: culling all the siblings if ONE animal has the visual defect?
 
Rick,

I dont find you in the wrong in any way for selling the three that are kink free. To suggest that you should not sell or breed them at all is pure folly in my book. Everyone knows the issues surrounding this morph and I honestly believe there is nothing that can be done about it.

So what does that leave us with? Either accepting the fact that kinks are going to appear from time to time in the morph or quit breeding the morph completely. I dont see the latter happening or even being reasonable. All that can be done in my personal opinion is to be up front and honest with your customers and to educate them about the morph itself.

I certainly would not "keep my mouth shut" as you said you would. But that is also the difference in someone who is honest and someone who is a money grubbing whore with no ethics.
 
Rick,

I dont find you in the wrong in any way for selling the three that are kink free. To suggest that you should not sell or breed them at all is pure folly in my book. Everyone knows the issues surrounding this morph and I honestly believe there is nothing that can be done about it.

So what does that leave us with? Either accepting the fact that kinks are going to appear from time to time in the morph or quit breeding the morph completely. I dont see the latter happening or even being reasonable. All that can be done in my personal opinion is to be up front and honest with your customers and to educate them about the morph itself.

I certainly would not "keep my mouth shut" as you said you would. But that is also the difference in someone who is honest and someone who is a money grubbing whore with no ethics.
I made a bad mistake in my post. And I agree in all who called me out on this.
What I do not get is that the folks who sold down the line and sell to others did not disclose. Look at NERD with the wobbles in spiders. I have never seen my spiders do anything of wobble but when a buyer asks me I tell them they may wobble. Now just like my caramels the will be sold that they could kink. Real easy.
I do not rely on sales from reptiles. My checks come in from a pension and SS. So if I don't sell I can live without a sale. And please all animals I am selling now are produced by me. And yes I change backgrounds for pictures from time to time!
I think this thread turned out to be educational one as well for all to read.
Also I am trying to breed the male to a pied female and a big normal girl.:thumbsup:
 
The cost of the morph shouldn't enter into it, from an ethical perspective.
It's inappropriate to say "Animals displaying negative traits should be culled, as should any probable carriers of negative genetic conditions, expressed or not." and then qualify it with "Unless they cost more than $XXXX.XX"

I totally understand..yet, if everyone is to live by this one standard of measurment then it would wipe out some people (NOT ME)..I am trying to be fair here. Everyone can't just junk their animals and projects because they were sold a "raw bill of goods."

When someone decides to make a living off the propogation of live animals, they should go into it with the appropriate attitude. They should seek to always improve captive populations and they should recognize the inherent risks they have assumed by choosing this vehicle as an investment. If they can't afford to do it ethically, then they shouldn't be doing it at all.

:iagree::iagree: But I don't think it's simply a matter of trying to "improve" the bp morph. I think most people are trying to 'push the envelope' and to stretch the limits of the imagination. So in pushing the envelope abnormalities have appeared..at this point, I am confused.

Fauna members are most often concerened with legalities- right and wrong when it comes to dollars and contracts. Intentionally propogating negative traits in a captive population is at least as bad as stealing; it screws over everybody.

:iagree::iagree: So who's going to hold those people accountable that sold the BP breeders the animals?

'course Rick was trying to thieve as well. He lied in an ad, misrepresented animals. Got caught, lied again and just pulled the proof of it. Got caught, left his omission and failure to disclose information to lie for him. He's a thief, he steals.

:rofl:No doubt.:iagree:
 
So what does that leave us with? Either accepting the fact that kinks are going to appear from time to time in the morph or quit breeding the morph completely. I dont see the latter happening or even being reasonable. All that can be done in my personal opinion is to be up front and honest with your customers and to educate them about the morph itself.

I agree that the latter is unlikely.

I don't think it's unreasonable though and would respect the decision of an ethical breeder to discontinue their work with the morph or to undertake the extensive and possibly (probably) fruitless project of trying to separate the traits without selling their stock.

I'd go so far as to say that anyone producing stock where they are aware that it's highly probable that the resulting offspring will posess (or carry the genetic potential for) a trait that negatively impacts the quality of life of the animal is unethical.

I doubt that my standards will be widely accepted simply because the morphs in question have been produced to the point where they're widespread and there are too many people who will rationalize or justify their continued production of something nasty because of the cost of their investment.

Better when it's caught and addressed early- i.e., the general response to the scaleless bearded dragons or amelanistic tegus.
 
I'd go so far as to say that anyone producing stock where they are aware that it's highly probable that the resulting offspring will posess (or carry the genetic potential for) a trait that negatively impacts the quality of life of the animal is unethical.

I personally dont work with the morph in question, but I know breeders who have never produced a kink working with them. Also some who got one in their first clutch. What exactly is the percentage of kinked animals to non kinked animals with this morph? Anyone even have half a clue on that one? I sure dont. And what percentage is considered unethical, to you, to continue prorogation of this morph? 1%? 5%? 10%? Is only a 100% guarantee that a undesired trait will not occur acceptable? There is no such guarantee with genetics. Ever. Regardless of the species.

I doubt that my standards will be widely accepted simply because the morphs in question have been produced to the point where they're widespread and there are too many people who will rationalize or justify their continued production of something nasty because of the cost of their investment.

LOL... and why is it that anyone who dont see things the same as the great Seamus Haley just has to be rationalizing or justifying? Wow...lmao!!
 
I think ALL Caramel lines kink. At least the three lines that have been around awhile. If someone tells you they have produced numerous Caramel clutches, and never produced a kinked one, I would say they are lying. (Check their garbage or freezer:)

As far as Rick's animals, I see no reason to put down the non kinked animals, but the kinked one should have been in the freezer a week ago. Since it is very well known fact that Caramels kink, I do not think he needs to advertise the fact in his ads, but if asked, he should divulge the information, that the Caramels had a kinked sibling.

If the animal in question was a male pastel, or a normal, it would have been tossed in the freezer, and that would have been that. Since it is a pricey animal, with pricey siblings, "that ain't going to happen" in most cases.
 
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