Bad Guy Beware Evan Stahl from Stahl Reptiles!

[ophidile]

As I recall, paypal payments have a "refund" option that expires after 60 days. If the seller hits the "refund" option, monies are returned without fees deducted.

I don't know how this works with disputed payments, does the "refund" option disappear then? That seems strange, considering "refund" would be one of two resolutions to any dispute.

I don't know if the refund window has expired already, but if not, I imagine it will soon - Evan, will you absorb the fees if it expires because you were waiting to resell the animals?

 

[SpitZu]

you have to cover 100% of the funds to refund at the same time, you can not do partial refunds.

I ran several partial refunds recently. It gives you the option to type in the dollar amount after navigating to the refund screen. Transaction Details -> Issue a Refund -> Refund amount.

as paypal warned me, the monies would be taken from them and they would then come and take them from me.

I don't understand why would Paypal come after you for money that you refunded through their system? That doesn't make any sense. If she does a chargeback on a deposit that was refunded then they should be sending her to collections. Even if you keep the forfeited deposit due to your ToS.

 

[ophidile]

Forgot this; given that the first $100 was a deposit to hold the animal, I don't know what Evan's TOS is regarding the deposit but he would not be out of line keeping it, given that it sounds like the delay in shipping was reasonable, and the buyer canceled the deal because they just decided they wanted something faster.
Holding the deposit is reasonable; holding all the money is not.

 

[pparrish]

Wow, my opinion....lots of padding in the thread. Bottom line - Breeders/Dealers have an obligation to satisify buyers (CUSTOMERS) in any way reasonably possibly. Satisified people direct more customers to you. If not for HAPPY customers we would have no business.

 

[scaledverts]

Ok Evan,

I was totally with you on your side all through the weather related issues. I totally agree (as most would here) that waiting to ship until the temperatures are within your preferred shipping temperatures during THE ENTIRE TRIP is totally acceptable.

HOWEVER, these posts are just not what someone would do in terms of trying to have good customer service. I do not know you personally and have never bought from you previously, but people always seem to forget that no matter how many good/great transactions or positive trader ratings you have, it is the troublesome transactions that people remember and will haunt you for years to come.

you will get it the same way you paid via paypal, you will get it as soon as I get paid in full from the new buyer, I have already explained that to you.

The fact that you relisted these snakes means that the person should be refunded her money. If you want to take out the deposit, sure that's understandable. But to hold the ENTIRE sum of money hostage until you are able to sell the animals is not the right thing to do here.

none of this was my idea or doing, if she had just waited a couple days she would have had her snakes. she asked for a refund and for me to resell the snakes, I then found out that the monies were pulled from my account. why would I then refund her? so then I went to resell the animals and told her I would refund once they were paid for. paypal ruled in my favor, I really did not want them or expect them to. So then I got paid again, after weeks of it being withheld. She will get refunded shortly when all is done with the resale to my satisfaction. This was not my doing in any way. I have waited months to get animals that I have paid for like most people who care about the animals have. She wanted me to ship repeatedly when it was unsafe to do so. I told her where I lived and told her to look at the weather forcast. I was not and am not creating the weather. This will all be over in a few days. Oh and she also left out that she threatened to sue me.

This part (in red) is particularly troubling to me personally. Yes, I understand that you do not refund moneys for buyers remorse. But it seems like you could just save yourself quite a bit of headache by just refunding the money. I also don't completely agree with the sentiment that your satisfaction is what's important here.

It is simple. When she asked for a refund I did not have her money she had filed a dispute with paypal and they had her money, not me. AND I do not offer refunds for buyers remorse. Her deposit was also non refundable but I have not even brought up that point. I need to now get paid for the snake that had not been paid for because you have to cover 100% of the funds to refund at the same time, you can not do partial refunds.

Every day I have expenses that are debited from my account, wether they be automated utility payments or putting gas in the car, simple, so there is less than enough in my account to refund 100% of her payments and you can not do less than 100% unless I wanted to refund the initial $100 deposit, which should be forfeit. As I have said now several times to her and in this very thread, she will be refunded in a few days when the payment is cleared and the total amount is covered to refund. If that is not adequate, she can sue me as she threatened or take it up with her credit card company, which she probably already did and as paypal warned me, the monies would be taken from them and they would then come and take them from me.

This part is also somewhat odd to me. This is why you don't use the money you get paid until the transaction is complete to avoid situations just like this. Also, it would seem that if your paypal account is linked to your bank account that the available funds in your paypal balance has no bearing on your ability to refund her money.

Like I said, I was totally with you in the beginning, but now the tides are shifting. Not toward her per se because she is not in the right here totally either, but certainly more toward the middle where you both are wrong in different areas. Why not just refund the money and be done with this whole thing?

Kyle

 

[Fangthane]

I don't understand why would Paypal come after you for money that you refunded through their system? That doesn't make any sense. If she does a chargeback on a deposit that was refunded then they should be sending her to collections. Even if you keep the forfeited deposit due to your ToS.

It's just one of several aspects which make no sense. It also doesn't quite jive with what he more recently said: That he simply doesn't have the money to cover it. Despite all the pretty sentiments of being concerned only with the snakes' welfare; I suspect that it all came down to the money. I mean, if this buyer is so heartless and uncaring, why be so bound and determined to send them to someone who you don't think cares them? Seem odd to anyone else? I also have my doubts about some statements that were made about the timeline of certain events.

Forgot this; given that the first $100 was a deposit to hold the animal, I don't know what Evan's TOS is regarding the deposit but he would not be out of line keeping it, given that it sounds like the delay in shipping was reasonable, and the buyer canceled the deal because they just decided they wanted something faster.
Holding the deposit is reasonable; holding all the money is not.

I don't know that it's all that clear-cut. While some will focus on the fact that the buyer did initially try to back out, let's not forget that a month (give or take) had elapsed since she paid. I think it's a bit murky. His TOS are extremely vague and leave entirely too much room for him to pick and choose when it's convenient to ship. There are no specific given, regarding what he'd consider to be acceptable shipping temperatures. Also, the argument could be made that he did fail to produce what was paid for. At least within what some may consider a reasonable time. Is a month long enough to wait, especially when you're not in agreement with the waiting? I kinda think so. Prudent caution is one thing, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere.

 

[pparrish]

Good points Kyle and Dan bring up. Personally, after receiving payment I'll call/text/e-mail customers weekly if the weather isn't cooperating on either end, just to keep them in the loop and assure them that I have not forgot about them and that that the animals will be shipped ASAP. In this case it sounds like the buyer was attempting to do all the contacting. They paid money ($800) for product that wasn't delivered in a week, in two weeks, or even in a month. Honestly, I would have become a bit concerned myself.
Again, my opinion, it's all about Customer Service. Even if a person only called/e-mailed you with a question and didn't spend a dime....if they were satisified with you they'll point others in your direction.
No matter the reason, if payment has been received and product hasn't been delivered, or even packaged for shipment, if the buyer asks for a refund it's only better for your business overall to give the refund promptly.
A last thought....if I produce and sell 100...200...300 Balls every year, it shouldn't be any problem to promptly refund $800. Evan should definitely keep separate accounts if he can't cover all he brings in if he ever needed to. Just smart business.

 

[evansnakes]

As I recall, paypal payments have a "refund" option that expires after 60 days. If the seller hits the "refund" option, monies are returned without fees deducted.

I don't know how this works with disputed payments, does the "refund" option disappear then? That seems strange, considering "refund" would be one of two resolutions to any dispute.

I don't know if the refund window has expired already, but if not, I imagine it will soon - Evan, will you absorb the fees if it expires because you were waiting to resell the animals?

I clearly said that I was giving her back all of her money including the deposit she should forfeit, all of it, that is $800, not sure how much more clear I can be on that. There are no fees when there is no transaction.

 

[evansnakes]

Forgot this; given that the first $100 was a deposit to hold the animal, I don't know what Evan's TOS is regarding the deposit but he would not be out of line keeping it, given that it sounds like the delay in shipping was reasonable, and the buyer canceled the deal because they just decided they wanted something faster.
Holding the deposit is reasonable; holding all the money is not.

But I am not keeping anything, I am refunding 100% of her money. As I have said repeatedly. I left this thread at the point where I was going to be refunding the full amount in a few days when my payments posted. That is more than clear and straightforward enough.

 

[evansnakes]

I don't know that it's all that clear-cut. While some will focus on the fact that the buyer did initially try to back out, let's not forget that a month (give or take) had elapsed since she paid. I think it's a bit murky. His TOS are extremely vague and leave entirely too much room for him to pick and choose when it's convenient to ship. There are no specific given, regarding what he'd consider to be acceptable shipping temperatures. Also, the argument could be made that he did fail to produce what was paid for. At least within what some may consider a reasonable time. Is a month long enough to wait, especially when you're not in agreement with the waiting? I kinda think so. Prudent caution is one thing, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere.[/QUOTE]

She tried to back out two weeks after paying. If you read the thread you would know that I told her that I would not ship until the night time lows on both ends were above freezing. Not only is that crystal clear and straight forward but it is absolutely reasonable.

 

[evansnakes]

Good points Kyle and Dan bring up. Personally, after receiving payment I'll call/text/e-mail customers weekly if the weather isn't cooperating on either end, just to keep them in the loop and assure them that I have not forgot about them and that that the animals will be shipped ASAP. In this case it sounds like the buyer was attempting to do all the contacting. They paid money ($800) for product that wasn't delivered in a week, in two weeks, or even in a month. Honestly, I would have become a bit concerned myself.
Again, my opinion, it's all about Customer Service. Even if a person only called/e-mailed you with a question and didn't spend a dime....if they were satisified with you they'll point others in your direction.
No matter the reason, if payment has been received and product hasn't been delivered, or even packaged for shipment, if the buyer asks for a refund it's only better for your business overall to give the refund promptly.
A last thought....if I produce and sell 100...200...300 Balls every year, it shouldn't be any problem to promptly refund $800. Evan should definitely keep separate accounts if he can't cover all he brings in if he ever needed to. Just smart business.

I not only spoke to her on a pile of occasions but when she suggested that I was lying about the forecast I directed her to go to weather.com to see what the forecast was as I was not magicaly creating the weather and dont control the weather channels site. I just went through my mail and counted a total of 21 emails that I sent her in the last 6 weeks. Does that sound like enough to you?

 

[evansnakes]

I think you guys are confused on the timeline. payment was made 2-24-13, today is 4-12-13, so the total elapsed time since the animals were paid for is between 6 and 7 weeks. This was not over a period of months. So do you still think that weather related delays in shipping were unreasonable for two weeks? that is what she said. the total time we even talked about shipping was just over a month. That is not that long for February to March in Michigan, sorry, the weather was terrible. As other Michigan natives have posted (thanks).

 

[mikepanzarella]

once the dispute with paypal ended all the money would of been released to you.the fact that you spent the money and now dont have it to pay her back is the problem. that money should never have been touched unless those animals arrived alive in the customers hands.your personal finance should not play a role in the timeline of refunding your customer.
In my personal opinion if the animals were not shipped and the buyer wants to back out im more then fine with that. rather them get what they want then not be happy with the product I provided.In the case of the refund fee I would ask that they would cover that.
when she disputed the charge from paypal if you would of said to paypal ill return the money this would of never been a problem.

 

[evansnakes]

once the dispute with paypal ended all the money would of been released to you.the fact that you spent the money and now dont have it to pay her back is the problem. that money should never have been touched unless those animals arrived alive in the customers hands.your personal finance should not play a role in the timeline of refunding your customer.
In my personal opinion if the animals were not shipped and the buyer wants to back out im more then fine with that. rather them get what they want then not be happy with the product I provided.In the case of the refund fee I would ask that they would cover that.
when she disputed the charge from paypal if you would of said to paypal ill return the money this would of never been a problem.

It is very easy to judge somebody else and type the perfect thing to do in hindsite, when it is not actually happening to you. I am sorry for not being perfect. Nobody ever overdraws their account, goes over the limit on their credit card, pays a bill late, etc., etc., things happen in the real world, you can oversimplify it to make yourself look better and somebody else look worse. She went to paypal and filed claims without talking to me, they took the cash out without talking to me, my bills posted to the account as they do every month, the funds were released, the bills got paid. So now she will get paid as soon as I have enough cash in the account to cover it. It may not be ideal but SHE DOES NOT DESERVE A REFUND AT ALL!!! I did nothing to make her think that I would do anything but wait for reasonable weather, which is above 32 degrees overnight in both cities. That would have happened two weeks ago if she had not played games. It would have been less than a month. Is that unreasonable??? It is Michigan in February and March!!! She has been nothing but insulting and immature wanting the snakes immediately regardless of anything else. She was impatient from the first day. Now there is nothing left to talk about, I have repeatedly promised a refund in a few days for the full amount, as I have from the start. So you can keep rehashing the past telling us all how perfect you are and how flawed we are, but it will have no impact on anything as this is done, over, dead issue.

 

[lud3au]

I wanted to buy a snake off of Evan in January. On my end I decided to add onto another order. It was nothing against him or his product. I was in the middle of moving so things were kinda crazy for me at the time.
Evan was upfront that shipping would be WEEKS away. I would not hesitate to initiate another purchase in the future------------

 

[mikepanzarella]

Im far from perfect I make a ton of mistakes im still learning
I dont see why she would not deserve a refund she has no product.
but like you said theres nothing left to talk about you dont have the money yet to refund her so untill then I guess we just wait for you

 

[meowmeowkazoo]

It is very easy to judge somebody else and type the perfect thing to do in hindsite, when it is not actually happening to you. I am sorry for not being perfect. Nobody ever overdraws their account, goes over the limit on their credit card, pays a bill late, etc., etc., things happen in the real world, you can oversimplify it to make yourself look better and somebody else look worse. She went to paypal and filed claims without talking to me, they took the cash out without talking to me, my bills posted to the account as they do every month, the funds were released, the bills got paid. So now she will get paid as soon as I have enough cash in the account to cover it. It may not be ideal but SHE DOES NOT DESERVE A REFUND AT ALL!!! I did nothing to make her think that I would do anything but wait for reasonable weather, which is above 32 degrees overnight in both cities. That would have happened two weeks ago if she had not played games. It would have been less than a month. Is that unreasonable??? It is Michigan in February and March!!! She has been nothing but insulting and immature wanting the snakes immediately regardless of anything else. She was impatient from the first day. Now there is nothing left to talk about, I have repeatedly promised a refund in a few days for the full amount, as I have from the start. So you can keep rehashing the past telling us all how perfect you are and how flawed we are, but it will have no impact on anything as this is done, over, dead issue.

Uh yes, actually she does deserve a refund. You are selling the snakes to other people, and she did not receive anything for the $800 she sent you. Yes, I realize that shipping delays happen. I can agree that she was being impatient and even unreasonable. The fact remains that YOU have HER money and she has nothing to show for it.

Nobody is perfect, but I find it hard to believe that you didn't have the money to pay your bills without her $800. If you are really the kind of irresponsible person that lives hand to mouth with no savings for times like this, then that's just as bad.

I would never send money to a seller that spends my money on ANYTHING before I receive the product. I don't care if you had to spend it on hospital bills, or electricity, or food, or gas for your car. It's my money and it remains my money until I have received the product you are selling me.

 

[Magic]

Here is where I am stuck:

Evan still has the snakes that are paid for. His TOS clearly states he does not refund for buyers remorse.

Sierra paid for the snakes, so they are technically hers at this point. However, because she could not get them as fast as she wanted due to weather, she doesn't want them anymore and just wants her money back.

Evan didn't fail to produce the snakes or oversell them or have those snakes die or fall ill in his care, so he hasn't broken any of his terms. The snakes are still there, still sold to Sierra.


Why is it Evans responsibility to now refund her $ because she can't/won't wait for weather clearance? Is there a reason other than him actually trying to work with Sierra by agreeing to refund her?

This weather stuff happens with gecko purchases all the time. I am still waiting on 13 cresteds to ship in from the Great Lakes region and I bought them all before Christmas.

 

[allreptiles1966]

It is very easy to judge somebody else and type the perfect thing to do in hindsite, when it is not actually happening to you. I am sorry for not being perfect. Nobody ever overdraws their account, goes over the limit on their credit card, pays a bill late, etc., etc., things happen in the real world, you can oversimplify it to make yourself look better and somebody else look worse. She went to paypal and filed claims without talking to me, they took the cash out without talking to me, my bills posted to the account as they do every month, the funds were released, the bills got paid. So now she will get paid as soon as I have enough cash in the account to cover it. It may not be ideal but SHE DOES NOT DESERVE A REFUND AT ALL!!! I did nothing to make her think that I would do anything but wait for reasonable weather, which is above 32 degrees overnight in both cities. That would have happened two weeks ago if she had not played games. It would have been less than a month. Is that unreasonable??? It is Michigan in February and March!!! She has been nothing but insulting and immature wanting the snakes immediately regardless of anything else. She was impatient from the first day. Now there is nothing left to talk about, I have repeatedly promised a refund in a few days for the full amount, as I have from the start. So you can keep rehashing the past telling us all how perfect you are and how flawed we are, but it will have no impact on anything as this is done, over, dead issue.

What ?? She doesnt deserve a refund ? Why ? If she has not received her snakes or products,she is entitled to a refund ! Just because she went after you with pay-pal,was a pain does not mean you get to keep her hard earned $

I also agree with Mike and practice this myself. People should not spend the money they get for a snake,or whatever until that person says everything is ok with what they bought. Now you dont have the money thats rightfully hers.

 

[Smenger]

Here is where I am stuck:

Evan still has the snakes that are paid for. His TOS clearly states he does not refund for buyers remorse.

Sierra paid for the snakes, so they are technically hers at this point. However, because she could not get them as fast as she wanted due to weather, she doesn't want them anymore and just wants her money back.

Evan didn't fail to produce the snakes or oversell them or have those snakes die or fall ill in his care, so he hasn't broken any of his terms. The snakes are still there, still sold to Sierra.


Why is it Evans responsibility to now refund her $ because she can't/won't wait for weather clearance? Is there a reason other than him actually trying to work with Sierra by agreeing to refund her?

This weather stuff happens with gecko purchases all the time. I am still waiting on 13 cresteds to ship in from the Great Lakes region and I bought them all before Christmas.

The last email I sent him I stated I either wanted the snakes or my money. I understand weather happens but when there's a handful of days that would have worked but still wasn't shipped ontop of the seller being extremely rude there's a problem. His response to my last email requesting my animals or money was responded to with I would not get tYhe animals I would be refunded whenever he resells them, which is not right seeing how I already paid in full and he HAS my money.