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Bad Guy Beware of Panther Company

tkevan said:
I see no proof that this company intentionally "pawns" off crosses as a pure local, regardless of your opinion. I see proof that this company is struggling to know what they're selling, and re-labels their animals when they do know.
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like I said im allowed my opinion just as you are allowed yours no matter how far off you are.. you must not breed chameleons otherwise you would probably have a diff opinion. when your lines come out looking crossed after you spent a couple years on them.. breeding chameleons an just being a boi warrior are two diff things all together.. have a nice day..
 
Panther Company said:
tom kilgour -- I'm pretty sure that "April Quackenbush" had some fake business name close to Panther Company, but not the same (I only know because the mods let us know over a year ago that someone was reporting our account thinking it was hers, even though the names were different).



Any way, our breeding stock from many of the exact some lines you proudly listed, (6 Kush/Triton females from RobMD1 -- though I'd not call him a pro anything -- and 13 total from Todnedos Zurg/Blizzard), well over 10 females from Kammerflage (Nosy Be, Ambanja, Ambilobe, Sambava), over 5 females from FL Chams (Ambilobe, Ambanja), over 5 females from Screameleons (Nosy Be, Ambanja, Ambilobe), and others.



The animals this whole post about comes down to a group of 3 other females that I bought through the chameleonforums.com over 2 years ago. All the females listed above, though -- well over 30 females that are now breeders still at our "facility" -- came directly from the original breeders. This season, we also have a number of holdback female offspring from our WC males and these proven females that are breeding to our new males.
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So, in this ad, where you are using the names of Chuck's breeding line, you purchased those females directly from Chuck?

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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
robmd1 said:
like I said im allowed my opinion just as you are allowed yours no matter how far off you are.. you must not breed chameleons otherwise you would probably have a diff opinion. when your lines come out looking crossed after you spent a couple years on them.. breeding chameleons an just being a boi warrior are two diff things all together.. have a nice day..
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No "BOI warrior", just someone who read this entire cluster of a thread and tried to see the facts as separated from the opinions. Some here seem to be blurring the two.
 
So troy what your saying is you would want a company to lie to you and misrepresent animals and sell you something you thought was and after 8-12 months of incubation then another 6 months of growth you realize your breeding lines aren't as advertised. Your saying that is okay? I believe you are well over your head here. A lot of money, time, devotion goes into breeding panther chameleons and I just think your just not getting the point. None of these issues would have been fixed if said company wasn't called out for their mistakes. So you wouldn't know it was a sham until almost 2 years later.
 
So, in this ad, where you are using the names of Chuck's breeding line, you purchased those females directly from Chuck?
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No. The female that was the dam of that pairing (who wasn't listed in the text you quoted) came as 1 of 2 females that we got from Cory Chapman, who I believe got them directly from the source. I'll also point out the offspring produced by that dam was quite clearly labeled as potential crosses, and spelled out my honest thoughts on the blue Ambanjas generally.
 
james200111 said:
So troy what your saying is you would want a company to lie to you and misrepresent animals and sell you something you thought was and after 8-12 months of incubation then another 6 months of growth you realize your breeding lines aren't as advertised.
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A "lie" is intentional. I don't believe that's been shown here.

You're all trying to prove "locale" purity by sometimes minute variations in color/markings. Unless you travel to the actual areas of Madagascar and collect them yourselves, you cannot be 100% sure of the "locale" you're producing.
 
Facts- U want facts? I have everything screenshots and its not my opinions. IF you want facts just go over the screenshots and read them. Don't jump to conclusion saying it all opinions and no facts.
 
What does that have to do with anything here troy. Your basing your facts off nonsense. Your correct but you can also prove out your lines. If you choose to use wc females. Males if you get general local you will know you have what you got based off appearance (ambilobe, ambanja, nosy faly,) just examples if locals that have certain traits unlike others. So back to the subject he did lie when he sold an already sold ambanja and resold as an f1 faly.
 
Did you read in the screenshots i provided that they sent me a F1 Nosy Faly which was label as PURE AMBANJA? They INTENTIONALLY hid that information from me and not even once did they reveal that very important information. I even asked them about and Josh pretended he didnt know what happened. That's intentionally lying to customer and that is a fact. Not my opinion like you stated.
 
Panther Company said:
No. The female that was the dam of that pairing (who wasn't listed in the text you quoted) came as 1 of 2 females that we got from Cory Chapman, who I believe got them directly from the source. I'll also point out the offspring produced by that dam was quite clearly labeled as potential crosses, and spelled out my honest thoughts on the blue Ambanjas generally.
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I actually wasn't questioning purity here, I was asking because you said that all of your other females (besides the original 3 in question) were purchased directly from the breeders themselves. So now you are saying that is not an accurate statement? I'm just a little confused, I supppose?
 
this is the text you quoted:

Any way, our breeding stock from many of the exact some lines you proudly listed, (6 Kush/Triton females from RobMD1 -- though I'd not call him a pro anything -- and 13 total from Todnedos Zurg/Blizzard), well over 10 females from Kammerflage (Nosy Be, Ambanja, Ambilobe, Sambava), over 5 females from FL Chams (Ambilobe, Ambanja), over 5 females from Screameleons (Nosy Be, Ambanja, Ambilobe), and others.
Click to expand...

The dam falls into the "and others". So do the two females we bought from your Fuego line, for example.
 
My purpose in commenting here is not to pile on the Panther Company, even though I will state having read this in its entirety, that I agree with the relevance of this BOI. My hope for Josh and Vincent is that this experience will be a catalyst for them to make the changes required to be a trusted chameleon breeder in our community.

As the breeder of Grimbold (our well known F5 Ambanja), we were first alerted to this issue by the post Shauna Garcia made on Chameleons Gone Wild’s Facebook group. She shared a few pictures of her “Grimbold x Cyclone” male, sold to her by The Panther Company asking for comments from others. As the breeder of Grimbold I was surprised by how he looked as I saw no Grimbold influence at all. As I witnessed the controversy brewing over an offspring touted as being partly from Kammerflage Kreations, I asked for more information about the pairing. It turned out that the females who allegedly were of Grimbold decent, were purchased by the Panther Company from someone other than us. Since then the Panther Company has expressed doubt regarding the true origin of these females, which leads me to my main reason for posting.

There is a large and rather painful lesson to be learned from what has been revealed in this BOI and I truly hope that it will do more than bring shame to two people. So while my comments are directed at Josh and Vincent, I hope they will be a helpful reminder to other panther chameleon breeders and those aspiring to be breeders. The responsibility rests with the breeder to prove each and every new line out. The habit of not proving lines and trusting unknown females, has unfortunately become a common practice in the panther chameleon world. Since you can tell nothing about the females’ lineage or locale by looking at them, it is critical that “unknown” females are proven before their offspring are labeled as anything other than “unknown” or at least ”½ unknown”. The marketing of these offspring as Grimbold (and also as pure Ambanja) without raising enough males to an age where this could be proven, was at best irresponsible. It is a short cut that no breeder should make who wants to establish and keep an excellent reputation. In my opinion, you must consider the cost of your actions as a breeder in how you develop your lines and promote the offspring you produce. If the truth had not come out, not only would several breeding colonies have been compromised, but the reputation of our bloodline could have been tarnished as well. To me, a “Buy Back” policy is not the answer to this problem but a symptom of a problem.
 
"All the females listed above, though -- well over 30 females that are now breeders still at our "facility" -- came directly from the original breeders."

I am still not understanding, because the above quote is saying otherwise. But really, It doesn't matter. This is taking up way too much of my time and you clearly are going to keep justifying all of your actions. You admitted making mistakes, but justify those mistakes by letting everyone know how honorable you are for refunding money. In the process of defending your actions, you have attempted to bring others down with you. It's clear that you do not take this BOI seriously, but hopefully, with over 7,500 views, people have enough evidence to make informed decisions. My hope is that when this all dies down, you will be able to take some time to reflect upon all of this, and that you decide to make some positive changes.
 
This is gonna be my last statement on this BOI because like Shauna said this has taken too much of my time. I would rather be spending time with my chameleon clan. We can go on here for days, weeks, and even months arguing about the same thing. I have said all that need to be said and the reader can be the judge. Through this i have learned a lot and i would like to thanks everyone who contributed. Herioc Chameleon, Mr. Kammer, Shauna, and everyone else have summarized it best. My objective for this BOI was not to destroy Panther Co. but to rather revealed what been happening around the cham. community. Goodnight yall
 
choppers1 said:
Did you read in the screenshots i provided that they sent me a F1 Nosy Faly which was label as PURE AMBANJA? They INTENTIONALLY hid that information from me and not even once did they reveal that very important information.
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Did you purchase it as a F1 Nosy Faly? If so, then you were not lied to. The fact that they previously thought, and sold, the animal as a Pure Ambanja is irrelevant to YOUR purchase.
 
Correction..
It's only relevant to the point that these breeders seem to be unable to distinguish the "locales" from each other, and purchasing from them should be a cautious endeavor, at best.
 
first generation from newly imported females are judged by appearance. lam and James definitely said overwhelmingly that "F1 Faly" looked like a very nice Faly, and Lam in particular as the OP, was extremely pleased with the appearance and definitely also identified it as Nosy Faly.
 
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