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Bad Guy BHB reptiles "het" didn't prove out, won't fix it

If this wasn't Brian at BHB (or another known breeder), a genetics guarantee from the breeder would not be sufficient "proof" of genetics if you sold the animal. Someone who buys a het should hold that animal until they prove it out and are certain that it is indeed a het before labeling it and selling it as such, regardless of paperwork from a breeder (even a breeder as well-known and respected a Brian). In this case, that should have been Cliff. Once he had proven the animal, selling it to David as a het and asking a higher price for it than your average spider would be perfectly acceptable, but the fact of the matter is, Cliff sold the snake based on an assumption (granted, one he should have been able to believe), not on proof from himself. In this case, I believe that Brian would have been liable for re-imbursing or re-supplying Cliff with another animal had Cliff kept and proven this animal himself as a non-het. But since Cliff sold it, Brian is responsible for nothing. Suppose Cliff switched the animal to a spider he had produced and was calling it the het he received from Brian? I do not know Cliff, and am not trying to accuse him of doing such, but my point is that from the original breeder's (Brian's) standpoint, he could argue that that's what happened and could have told you to forget it. But instead, Brian told you he would try to make it right, which to me speaks volumes about Brian. I'm not trying to necessarily defend Brian (as I have had no personal deals with him), and I do agree that Brian should have followed through in a much more timely manner since he did tell you he would try to make this right. But in the end, he sold the animal to Cliff, not to you.
 
rabernet said:
What resolution do you want exactly?



Again - what did you pay for the animal, and what EXACTLY did Brian offer in value?

Trying to figure out what you consider to be reasonable compensation as the second owner of this animal.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Blind defense of BHB despite all of my email evidence and no response here from Brian.

What does it matter what I paid and what amount was agreed to? We agreed to an amount and Brian said he would send me a list to choose from. That never happened. Hence this thread. What mystery are you trying to solve?
 
David Bellis said:
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Blind defense of BHB despite all of my email evidence and no response here from Brian.

What does it matter what I paid and what amount was agreed to? We agreed to an amount and Brian said he would send me a list to choose from. That never happened. Hence this thread. What mystery are you trying to solve?
Click to expand...

I am sure that if Brian sent you something less than was agreed to, you would be happy to share what you agreed to. Why not put that out here now, so that when he gets around to it, there is no doubt that compensation was settled upon?
 
I believe this could be a mistake on Brians part as well. Hence why Brian agreed to take care of it. I also know how busy Brian is as he is a friend/supplier of mine. Especially right now during show season and hatching and breeding. He has done like 4-5 shows in the time period he was suppose to fix the situation. Which knowing Brian usually only does the bigger show is a lot of work. Not trying to say he isn't in the wrong but anybody who knows Brian knows it will take him a bit to sit down and make it right.
 
ShadowAceD said:
Actually, Chris sold the snake to David who sold it to Cliff.
Click to expand...

My mistake. This snake has changed hands now so many times that I am confused.

If Chris is the original purchaser from Biran rather than Cliff, Chris should be the one to hold and prove a het and claim reimbursement should the animla not prove out.
 
SnakeGirl3 said:
My mistake. This snake has changed hands now so many times that I am confused.

If Chris is the original purchaser from Biran rather than Cliff, Chris should be the one to hold and prove a het and claim reimbursement should the animla not prove out.
Click to expand...

So, you're saying, no matter if circumstances change for a breeder, that if they buy a het. they are obligated to prove it out themselves regardless of anything? So, if they sell it to another person and they try to prove it out, tough luck? It is a bad het., but it was not proven by the original buyer so it somehow nullifies misidentified genetics?

As I sad before, BHB already took responsibility for the animal, so none of that is really the issue at hand. The issue is that BHB has said they will do something for David and have failed to do it.
 
Not sure why this even matters but here you go detectives:

David Bellis said:
Honestly what I had in mind originally was a nice snake for each lost clutch, ignoring my project completely. Honeybees were $1500 or so at the time and I thought one or two snakes in the $2500-$3000 range (total) would be in the ballpark of fair for both sides. When I asked for a Desert cross, or something in that price range, that was with a kick back in mind. If that's not something you want to do that's fine, I'm just throwing ideas out there to make this work for both sides. - David
Click to expand...

Brian@BHB said:
I understand and kind of forgot about that kick back idea. Sorry nothing in the deserts:) Next year for sure! Let me know what else and we can hook it up? Have you looked at the chocolate stuff yet? I have some killer combos being made from them. Kev at NERD put a vid out about them as well. Just a thought for Chocolate pins or something of that sort? Let me know what you think? Thanks, Brian
Click to expand...
 
And the snake didn't change hands a crazy number of times. At the time, Chris was going to be sending me a couple snakes. Chris was also doing deals with BHB at the same time. Chris bought the Spider for me and sent it directly to me with paperwork. I never thought for a second anything like this would happen otherwise I would have bought it directly myself. It wasn't to get a smoking deal or a package price, it was just saving me from having to get two boxes delivered. I think Chris possessed the Spider for less than a week.

As far as Cliff goes, I have told Cliff numerous times that if Brian doesn't compensate him I will. If you guys feel that breeders should be able to sell hets left and right and only be responsible for the original cost to the original buyer then I feel bad for the state of the market. Scammers have at it.

In my opinion, if you sell an animal as a het and it doesn't prove out then the animal itself is the least of your concerns. How about the costs of raising a female up to size, getting that clutch and having it be nearly worthless? The morphs come down in price every year where losing out on animals that can be sold or held back for even a single season can be devastating.
 
ShadowAceD said:
So, you're saying, no matter if circumstances change for a breeder, that if they buy a het. they are obligated to prove it out themselves regardless of anything? So, if they sell it to another person and they try to prove it out, tough luck? It is a bad het., but it was not proven by the original buyer so it somehow nullifies misidentified genetics?

As I sad before, BHB already took responsibility for the animal, so none of that is really the issue at hand. The issue is that BHB has said they will do something for David and have failed to do it.
Click to expand...

Three cheers for sweet, sweet sanity.
 
David Bellis said:
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Blind defense of BHB despite all of my email evidence and no response here from Brian.

What does it matter what I paid and what amount was agreed to? We agreed to an amount and Brian said he would send me a list to choose from. That never happened. Hence this thread. What mystery are you trying to solve?
Click to expand...

No blind defense of BHB at all, I've never even had a transaction with Brian. I'm simply trying to fill in some holes that you left in your original post. You stated that you didn't believe the compensation to be commiserate with what you thought it should be. I'd like to see that defined. But you seem to be reluctant to do so - why?
 
rabernet said:
No blind defense of BHB at all, I've never even had a transaction with Brian. I'm simply trying to fill in some holes that you left in your original post. You stated that you didn't believe the compensation to be commiserate with what you thought it should be. I'd like to see that defined. But you seem to be reluctant to do so - why?
Click to expand...

Posted this and didn't see you had answered. Thank you.
 
David Bellis said:
And the snake didn't change hands a crazy number of times. At the time, Chris was going to be sending me a couple snakes. Chris was also doing deals with BHB at the same time. Chris bought the Spider for me and sent it directly to me with paperwork. I never thought for a second anything like this would happen otherwise I would have bought it directly myself. It wasn't to get a smoking deal or a package price, it was just saving me from having to get two boxes delivered. I think Chris possessed the Spider for less than a week.

As far as Cliff goes, I have told Cliff numerous times that if Brian doesn't compensate him I will. If you guys feel that breeders should be able to sell hets left and right and only be responsible for the original cost to the original buyer then I feel bad for the state of the market. Scammers have at it.

In my opinion, if you sell an animal as a het and it doesn't prove out then the animal itself is the least of your concerns. How about the costs of raising a female up to size, getting that clutch and having it be nearly worthless? The morphs come down in price every year where losing out on animals that can be sold or held back for even a single season can be devastating.
Click to expand...

If a breeder has to supply everyone who claims to have animals that were produced by them, and had multiple clutches they want compensation for, then scammers have at it indeed. Now that the the animal has been "proven" to not be a het, nobody after Cliff gets compensation right? If YOU had waited to prove it, it would be nobody after you.
 
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Blind defense of BHB despite all of my email evidence and no response here from Brian.

What does it matter what I paid and what amount was agreed to? We agreed to an amount and Brian said he would send me a list to choose from. That never happened. Hence this thread. What mystery are you trying to solve?
Click to expand...
Why the secrecy? You just want to share information that you feel justifies your post, but do not want to provide additional information when asked? I am curious also as to what resolution you think is fair, should brian compensate everyone who owned the animal, or just you?
Perhaps in retrospect, Brian feels that his initial desire to satisfy you (who did not purchase the animal from him) is unrealistic, like "on second thought"..... I would wonder where a breeders liability would end?
I have seen scenarios written out several years ago, where a buyer was wanting to be compensated for all the animals he could have produced if the animal they had purchased had not "passed away" (some of you old timers will remember Adam Block and Nerd)
Maybe in hindsight Brian felt his agreement to take care of the situation was premature, and has since changed his mind, therefore, it is nessesary to know what the initial agreement was, so we (the sheeple) can decide if we think it was fair...
 
Casey Hulse said:
Why the secrecy? You just want to share information that you feel justifies your post, but do not want to provide additional information when asked? I am curious also as to what resolution you think is fair, should brian compensate everyone who owned the animal, or just you?
Perhaps in retrospect, Brian feels that his initial desire to satisfy you (who did not purchase the animal from him) is unrealistic, like "on second thought"..... I would wonder where a breeders liability would end?
I have seen scenarios written out several years ago, where a buyer was wanting to be compensated for all the animals he could have produced if the animal they had purchased had not "passed away" (some of you old timers will remember Adam Block and Nerd)
Maybe in hindsight Brian felt his agreement to take care of the situation was premature, and has since changed his mind, therefore, it is nessesary to know what the initial agreement was, so we (the sheeple) can decide if we think it was fair...
Click to expand...

He already posted it.
 
DaveyFig said:
If a breeder has to supply everyone who claims to have animals that were produced by them, and had multiple clutches they want compensation for, then scammers have at it indeed. Now that the the animal has been "proven" to not be a het, nobody after Cliff gets compensation right? If YOU had waited to prove it, it would be nobody after you.
Click to expand...

I partially agree with your first point. If Brian said in his first email that he doesn't trust Chris or that he wasn't going to guarantee a het he didn't sell someone directly I probably would have made a post at that point. He didn't.

He knows Chris well enough to know that this isn't some complex scam or something. After the first clutches missed for me and I informed Brian he said to keep him in the loop as things move forward. He didn't offer to send a new animal or tell Cliff not to breed it. So yes at that point, with the email trail and contact with everyone involved I don't think it's unreasonable for him to owe both of us for the first lost clutches.

I do shoulder some of the blame for selling it to Cliff before the eggs hatched out. I had the eggs on the ground and a Hypo Butter male so I didn't need the Spider anymore and sold him. At the time I thought I had just hit bad odds on het to het and I reassured Cliff that he would prove out. He didn't and so here we are.
 
Casey Hulse said:
Why the secrecy? You just want to share information that you feel justifies your post, but do not want to provide additional information when asked? I am curious also as to what resolution you think is fair, should brian compensate everyone who owned the animal, or just you?
Perhaps in retrospect, Brian feels that his initial desire to satisfy you (who did not purchase the animal from him) is unrealistic, like "on second thought"..... I would wonder where a breeders liability would end?
I have seen scenarios written out several years ago, where a buyer was wanting to be compensated for all the animals he could have produced if the animal they had purchased had not "passed away" (some of you old timers will remember Adam Block and Nerd)
Maybe in hindsight Brian felt his agreement to take care of the situation was premature, and has since changed his mind, therefore, it is nessesary to know what the initial agreement was, so we (the sheeple) can decide if we think it was fair...
Click to expand...

There's no secrecy but you can keep defending BHB and coming up with conspiracies all you would like. :)

I didn't post it originally because it isn't relevant to the situation except in the minds of the people looking for something to attack me with.

Funny how no one is calling for Brian to respond here. Oh wait, that's right, he's the big breeder and is obviously right 100% of the time. What was I thinking?
 
Really I dont think peoples finances or what they spend on animals is anyones business. If u ask my what I got some of my snakes for Id tell u to buzz off. It dont matter if he spends $1 or $1,000,000. Brian needs to keep up to his end and make this right like he said. And not 6 months later.

Also I would like to see what Brian has to say.
 
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