Bad Guy BHB reptiles "het" didn't prove out, won't fix it

[Amelanistic Orca]

I'm shocked this hasn't been cleared with knowledge to all parties... I will never click on a BHB ad again based on response timing; or lack thereof?? Get a smart/dumb phone for a couple hundred??

 

[JBartolett]

But really, so what? What does it matter if I was asking for $1,000,000 or a normal corn snake. Brian agreed to it and then wouldn't follow through.

The "so what" is that it makes your case seem more credible if you are asking for fair compensation. If you had said "well, I produced 'x' amount of eggs, and, in theory, every one of those could have been a honey bee, valued at 'y' dollars..." You didn't do that, and posting what you asked for in compensation provides more information and more credibility to your argument. And since he agreed to it, I'd say you have a valid complaint.

I have nothing to hide here, I just didn't think it would be necessary to post 45 emails in the thread. If I'm a little defensive it's probably because I knew I'd be spending lots of time defending myself against people who had nothing to do with this transaction. I think this thread would be very different if I weren't saying something about BHB but maybe I'm crazy.

I think had you made the post about any well known breeder you'd be doing a lot of defending yourself. I'm not saying that's the way it should be, but it's the way it is. I've dealt with several larger breeders who I wouldn't do business with again, and I'm sure if i posted about them, I'd end up having the same problems you are.

Why? Brian has known the history from start to finish and if this was a scam or if I'm slandering him then please, sue me. I've shown a mountain of evidence and can't even get a response from Brian and yet you're all grilling me. And then you wonder why I'm defensive.

If you look at what I said, I don't think you are trying to scam anyone. I asked you to look at it from the viewpoint of an outsider looking in. this is a public forum, and there's a whole lot of outside looking in that happens.

Yes, Brian knew all of the details from start to finish. Telling someone you'll do something multiple times and then never doing it does indeed say something about his character. What it says I guess we'll have to disagree on.

I only mentioned the fact that he was dealing with the situation in the first place knowing all the details, not the fact that you're having issues getting him to follow through. Getting a "hey, my friend bought this het from you that he sold to me that I sold to someone else and it hasn't proved out yet" email would earn an automatic "delete" from most breeders. I hope you guys do reach a resolution on the matter.

Yes, Cliff was also working out a deal with Brian and I hope this doesn't screw it up for him. The last I spoke to Cliff though he was told he'd get an inventory to pick from that he never saw either. But as I've stated multiple times, if Brian doesn't compensate Cliff **I WILL**.

I hope Cliff gets his resolution to, and I commend you for stepping up to say you would make it right if nothing comes of it. If you mentioned this elsewhere in the thread, I missed it, and i apologize.

Make mention of it and send the snakes back?? I would start a new thread with a huge apology just for starters. You don't think this crossed my mind at all, that it's been bad odds after bad odds? Of course it has. But after four clutches and 20+ eggs I'm 99.999999999% sure he's not a het. And I think Brian felt the same way which is why he told me for six months that he would do something.

But he didn't.

I'm glad that did cross your mind and you thought it out, as I trule believe most people would just hush up about it and not say anything if it ultimately did prove out. As I said, i wasn't trying to jump on you or neccesarily pick sides, i was just trying to get more information. i hope you and Brian can reach a peaceful resolution in this.

 

[Amelanistic Orca]

That final statement speaks volumes about you David.. Cliff hasn't been worried one bit, because he knows you are bulletproof... Way to be standup and answer your phone my man!! Also; way to remain professional as all get out!!

 

[malibumiles]

you guys really should not complain about this stuff and just learn when you purchase a het even when its said to be 100percent you never can guarentee, I personally wouldnt buy a het ever for breeding not because of trust issues but because ur screwed if something wrong, I wouldnt blame any breeder for someone trying multiple years to produce from a het and get all pissy that it didnt work out. this is just MO

 

[snakemami]

I am curious after reading through this entire thread...I know I personally do but how many breeders who sell hets provide a photo id with genetic guarantee? I am not saying anything about the OP, seller, or new buyer..... but isn't it possible that someone with a lesser rep or even a potential scammer sells a snake that has genetic guarantee paperwork and then turns around and ships out a totally different snake? Maybe this isn't the place to ask this question but after reading the post, I kept wondering where the paperwork that proved the snake was the one in question with a photo ID until I saw Chris' post that the paperwork I expected to see doesn't exist.

 

[ShadowAceD]

you guys really should not complain about this stuff and just learn when you purchase a het even when its said to be 100percent you never can guarentee, I personally wouldnt buy a het ever for breeding not because of trust issues but because ur screwed if something wrong, I wouldnt blame any breeder for someone trying multiple years to produce from a het and get all pissy that it didnt work out. this is just MO

Yeah, that's a great mentality to have.

No one should guarantee hets. That way, no one is ever disappointed and no one ever has to be labeled as a scammer.

Really?

If I breed an albino boa to a normal boa, biology says the babies will be het. for albino. So ... trust issues aside ...

 

[NewEnglandReptile]

Hi,

Dare I chime in on this. I can tell you that I have first hand bred various Ghost lines together and FAILED to hatch Ghost. For a fact there are different lines of Ghost that look just like each other and are NOT genetically alligned. As an example of how this works is when I bred both of my lines of Albino Water monitors together and NEVER hatched a single albino. They are from the same general area(in the wild) and look basically identical, what a shock it was with multiple breedings and never hatching a single visual.

I see Mike Wilbanks has Citrus Ghost.... I don't think they are compatible with Green/Orange Ghost. I have had Blonde Ghost not line up with Green/Orange Ghost.

Secondly, I know all about BAD odds... odds way beyond what you are experiencing.... there is still a SIGNIFICANT possibility that you just had bad luck....a VERY good possibility in fact. Statistically speaking 13 eggs is not finite enough to rule out that the Spider Het Ghost was not indeed a Ghost Het.

Finally, I think you may have forced the hand a bit with Brian when you went here without sticking it out just a bit more..... Once this happens he may not feel like he wants to do anything.

What happens if you bred this snake to a visual Green or Orange Ghost and it DID prove out? Who would have suffered then? I really think it would be wise to try this last breeding just to be sure.

It is a tough situation and I totally understand your frustration....

Kevin

 

[WebSlave]

Make mention of it and send the snakes back?? I would start a new thread with a huge apology just for starters. You don't think this crossed my mind at all, that it's been bad odds after bad odds? Of course it has. But after four clutches and 20+ eggs I'm 99.999999999% sure he's not a het. And I think Brian felt the same way which is why he told me for six months that he would do something.

But he didn't.

20 eggs is the total of your sample, and you are "99.999999999%" sure? Well, I bred corn snakes for a long time, and bred a LOT of het to het. 20 eggs would be the equivalent of a single clutch of eggs from a corn, and quite honestly it wouldn't surprise me in the least (and in fact, it HAS happened MANY times) to not get a target visual with ONLY those odds. One in four odds with only 20 chances really means nothing. The reality of statistics in situations like this is that you will get anywhere from NONE to ALL visuals, depending on your luck. Now if you had 100 babies, or if your odds were 50 percent (by breeding het to visual) with 40 babies, then I think your case would be on much more solid footing. Honestly, even then it would not be absolute PROOF, but the ODDS of your being correct would be much more in your favor.

Genetics is based on statistics and influenced HEAVILY by pure luck. At this point, you certainly cannot rule out the possibility that this is all just about a classic case of bad luck. Yeah, unpleasant and a kick in the teeth, but that is the plain reality of playing with genetics and literally counting your chickens before they hatch.

Also, I don't know what the situation is like in ball pythons concerning hypomelanism, but I do know that it is a real nightmare in the corn snake world, concerning incompatible, but identical looking, "hypo" genes. Lord only knows that I have had my share of banging my head on the table over such things.

Anyway, yes, I understand the REASON for this thread here on the BOI is because of Brian failing to address this with you in a timely fashion, which I believe many people will agree with you. My response HERE is focused on the fact that I believe that you just do not have a solid case for what you are claiming concerning the genetics of the animal in question here. THAT, in my opinion, is something that would be premature to use as evidence in the labelling of anyone as being responsible for any wrong-doing at this point.

 

[farfrumugen]

my opinion is that the breeder should guarantee the genetics of his animal to whom ever owns and trys proving the animal out. you should NOT be compensated for any loss of potential offspring or monies their of.
the genetics are guaranteed which is something that doesnt change regardless of ownership.
an animal of equivalent value should be offered. so either a 2010 honeybee or another adult spider PROVEN het ghost.
4 months is a long time to negotiate a reslolution.
i also agree that 20 eggs from a het to het with unknown lines is not enough evidence to say 100% that this animal is not a het at all.

ill do this for you. ill give you 300 bucks which is the going rate for an adult male spider right now.
and ill try and prove him out.
het to het can go bad for years and years with no result and then one clutch will be all visuals. i think you need to take a little more time with him.
i understand your upset but you shouldnt have sold him before your eggs hatched. then you would have had another year to prove him out.
adam jeffery

 

[TheVipersHouse]

Hi,

Dare I chime in on this. I can tell you that I have first hand bred various Ghost lines together and FAILED to hatch Ghost. For a fact there are different lines of Ghost that look just like each other and are NOT genetically alligned. As an example of how this works is when I bred both of my lines of Albino Water monitors together and NEVER hatched a single albino. They are from the same general area(in the wild) and look basically identical, what a shock it was with multiple breedings and never hatching a single visual.

I see Mike Wilbanks has Citrus Ghost.... I don't think they are compatible with Green/Orange Ghost. I have had Blonde Ghost not line up with Green/Orange Ghost.

Secondly, I know all about BAD odds... odds way beyond what you are experiencing.... there is still a SIGNIFICANT possibility that you just had bad luck....a VERY good possibility in fact. Statistically speaking 13 eggs is not finite enough to rule out that the Spider Het Ghost was not indeed a Ghost Het.

Finally, I think you may have forced the hand a bit with Brian when you went here without sticking it out just a bit more..... Once this happens he may not feel like he wants to do anything.

What happens if you bred this snake to a visual Green or Orange Ghost and it DID prove out? Who would have suffered then? I really think it would be wise to try this last breeding just to be sure.

It is a tough situation and I totally understand your frustration....

Kevin

20 eggs is the total of your sample, and you are "99.999999999%" sure? Well, I bred corn snakes for a long time, and bred a LOT of het to het. 20 eggs would be the equivalent of a single clutch of eggs from a corn, and quite honestly it wouldn't surprise me in the least (and in fact, it HAS happened MANY times) to not get a target visual with ONLY those odds. One in four odds with only 20 chances really means nothing. The reality of statistics in situations like this is that you will get anywhere from NONE to ALL visuals, depending on your luck. Now if you had 100 babies, or if your odds were 50 percent (by breeding het to visual) with 40 babies, then I think your case would be on much more solid footing. Honestly, even then it would not be absolute PROOF, but the ODDS of your being correct would be much more in your favor.

Genetics is based on statistics and influenced HEAVILY by pure luck. At this point, you certainly cannot rule out the possibility that this is all just about a classic case of bad luck. Yeah, unpleasant and a kick in the teeth, but that is the plain reality of playing with genetics and literally counting your chickens before they hatch.

Also, I don't know what the situation is like in ball pythons concerning hypomelanism, but I do know that it is a real nightmare in the corn snake world, concerning incompatible, but identical looking, "hypo" genes. Lord only knows that I have had my share of banging my head on the table over such things.

Anyway, yes, I understand the REASON for this thread here on the BOI is because of Brian failing to address this with you in a timely fashion, which I believe many people will agree with you. My response HERE is focused on the fact that I believe that you just do not have a solid case for what you are claiming concerning the genetics of the animal in question here. THAT, in my opinion, is something that would be premature to use as evidence in the labelling of anyone as being responsible for any wrong-doing at this point.

Both of these Posts are Exactly the point !!!!!!!!!!!
Just like what i said earlier , you breed Het X Het your not guaranteed anything .. and you cant say 100% or 99.9999999 % as you put it ,that the snake is NOT HET .

Before you can make a Bold statement as it NOT BEING HET you need to make sure 1) Compatibility 2) you breed it to a VISUAL of the Morph .

like i said earlier then and only then can you make the claim that its NOT HET .

 

[Wolfy-hound]

Whether or not people think 20 eggs isn't enough to GUARENTEE it's not a het, BHB agreed that there's a problem and said they would address it.

With the incompatiable hypo lines, since they used 3 unrelated het hypo females, I'd think one of them would have been compatiable. So MAYBE only one was compatible and MAYBE that one happened to be one that gave bad odds... maybe maybe maybe..

The fact is that Brian agreed to resolve it(which would have been superb customer service) and then got too busy to bother responding. That's bad customer service.

 

[MRC31]

I will never click on a BHB ad again based on response timing; or lack thereof?

I won't either. I was actually considering buying a couple of their striped Javelin Sand Boa's. I know BHB has lots of satisfied customers and they are a huge facility but I know David Bellis and he is one of the most stand up guys you can deal with around here.
If this wasn't BHB i'm sure some of the responses might be a little different. I have had some bad dealings with people and hear the same excuses been swamped, doing a show,someone died.
But come on, how long does it take to send a email or make a phone call? Hell, I bring my laptop everywhere I go if i'm going to be staying overnight. No excuse for lack of communication nowadays. I'm not sure about the odds of hets with BPs as I am not into them, but I know David has been working with them for years. I probably should have stayed out of this post, but I consider him a friend, and many people out of Arizona probably don't know him. He is very well respected here in Arizona.

 

[Amelanistic Orca]

I think Brian/BHB/Chris can/could/should do that final breeding... It's been four breedings and 22 live babies... No ghosts or honeys... Plain, cut, dry and simple.. IMHO... Sorry...

 

[David Bellis]

20 eggs is the total of your sample, and you are "99.999999999%" sure? Well, I bred corn snakes for a long time, and bred a LOT of het to het. 20 eggs would be the equivalent of a single clutch of eggs from a corn, and quite honestly it wouldn't surprise me in the least (and in fact, it HAS happened MANY times) to not get a target visual with ONLY those odds. One in four odds with only 20 chances really means nothing. The reality of statistics in situations like this is that you will get anywhere from NONE to ALL visuals, depending on your luck. Now if you had 100 babies, or if your odds were 50 percent (by breeding het to visual) with 40 babies, then I think your case would be on much more solid footing. Honestly, even then it would not be absolute PROOF, but the ODDS of your being correct would be much more in your favor.

Genetics is based on statistics and influenced HEAVILY by pure luck. At this point, you certainly cannot rule out the possibility that this is all just about a classic case of bad luck. Yeah, unpleasant and a kick in the teeth, but that is the plain reality of playing with genetics and literally counting your chickens before they hatch.

Also, I don't know what the situation is like in ball pythons concerning hypomelanism, but I do know that it is a real nightmare in the corn snake world, concerning incompatible, but identical looking, "hypo" genes. Lord only knows that I have had my share of banging my head on the table over such things.

Anyway, yes, I understand the REASON for this thread here on the BOI is because of Brian failing to address this with you in a timely fashion, which I believe many people will agree with you. My response HERE is focused on the fact that I believe that you just do not have a solid case for what you are claiming concerning the genetics of the animal in question here. THAT, in my opinion, is something that would be premature to use as evidence in the labelling of anyone as being responsible for any wrong-doing at this point.

Unreal. Thanks for the infraction too. I guess my ads don't generate enough money to warrant even asking Brian for a response. Oh wait that's right, he's a big breeder he was right before I made the post.

 

[David Bellis]

I should ad that I didn't start this thread to try to establish whether or not the animal is or is not a het. That was established months ago between Brian and myself. Somehow that fact seems to escape everyone. So now that he ignored me for months on end and I got fed up and posted here NOW everyone wants to question whether it's a het.

I started the thread because Brian didn't do what he said he would do over and over and over again. I got tired of hearing the same line and wanted to warn other people. But as usual I should have just kept my mouth shut and only looked out for myself.

 

[Paul Kent]

20 eggs is the total of your sample, and you are "99.999999999%" sure? Well, I bred corn snakes for a long time, and bred a LOT of het to het. 20 eggs would be the equivalent of a single clutch of eggs from a corn, and quite honestly it wouldn't surprise me in the least (and in fact, it HAS happened MANY times) to not get a target visual with ONLY those odds. One in four odds with only 20 chances really means nothing. The reality of statistics in situations like this is that you will get anywhere from NONE to ALL visuals, depending on your luck. Now if you had 100 babies, or if your odds were 50 percent (by breeding het to visual) with 40 babies, then I think your case would be on much more solid footing. Honestly, even then it would not be absolute PROOF, but the ODDS of your being correct would be much more in your favor.

Genetics is based on statistics and influenced HEAVILY by pure luck. At this point, you certainly cannot rule out the possibility that this is all just about a classic case of bad luck. Yeah, unpleasant and a kick in the teeth, but that is the plain reality of playing with genetics and literally counting your chickens before they hatch.

Also, I don't know what the situation is like in ball pythons concerning hypomelanism, but I do know that it is a real nightmare in the corn snake world, concerning incompatible, but identical looking, "hypo" genes. Lord only knows that I have had my share of banging my head on the table over such things.

Anyway, yes, I understand the REASON for this thread here on the BOI is because of Brian failing to address this with you in a timely fashion, which I believe many people will agree with you. My response HERE is focused on the fact that I believe that you just do not have a solid case for what you are claiming concerning the genetics of the animal in question here. THAT, in my opinion, is something that would be premature to use as evidence in the labelling of anyone as being responsible for any wrong-doing at this point.

I agree 100% with all of that but I think the only point he's REALLY trying to make (granted hes doing it with a bad attitude) is that BHB DOES believe what he's claiming and decided to compensate him for it, and hasnt (to date) come through with it.

That said, if the OP really wants to make a point, try doing it without all of the snark, etc and you'll notice people give you more credit...

 

[Dennis Hultman]

Unreal. Thanks for the infraction too. I guess my ads don't generate enough money to warrant even asking Brian for a response. Oh wait that's right, he's a big breeder he was right before I made the post.

BS. You received an infraction for being an ass and now you are receiving one for antagonism. You have been here long enough to know that no breeder is immune from this section. Big or small many have both good and bad guy threads. Brian doesn't advertise here by the way.

You have had both positive posts and people asking questions. You didn't make it past post eight when you decide to start throwing the membership as a whole here under the bus. That's what you received the infraction for and nothing more. You can disagree with individuals and their posts all you want but we aren't going to put up with degrading the site or its members in general. Everybody knows your advertising dollars here doesn't buy you protection from the BOI. It doesn't matter who you are.

Stay on topic.

 

[ozz465]

I should ad that I didn't start this thread to try to establish whether or not the animal is or is not a het. That was established months ago between Brian and myself. Somehow that fact seems to escape everyone. So now that he ignored me for months on end and I got fed up and posted here NOW everyone wants to question whether it's a het.

I started the thread because Brian didn't do what he said he would do over and over and over again. I got tired of hearing the same line and wanted to warn other people. But as usual I should have just kept my mouth shut and only looked out for myself.

You really seem to have a persecution complex , most people here agree that brian agreed to make it right and him ignoring you is bad , yet you seem to go on and on about everyone being on his side.The part of the animal being het or not is a acceptable topic here since that's the main problem and you seem to try to get past that but its an open discussion here .

 

[WebSlave]

Unreal. Thanks for the infraction too.

You are welcome. You earned it.

Here's the post you made that got you that infraction with highlights in the text to pull your attention to your own words that you seem to have forgotten.

I did get paperwork with the Spider from BHB but like most large scale breeders it didn't come with a photo ID.

But again this is all besides the point. Brian already agreed that his het didn't prove out and agreed to make a deal with me. This was done in May and I was told I'd be compensated in July or August when his stuff hatched out. He never followed through with anything he told me and that's what this post is about. Period.

I knew there were going to be some BHB cheerleaders here but really sheeple give me a break. I've got emails from Brian telling me he's going to send me an inventory list to pick an animal from, which he never does, and you guys are trying to go back in time and figure out a way that he doesn't have to honor what he told me.

This is the reason people don't like Fauna and the BOI. It's this hive mind mentality where despite all the evidence people are still going to side with whoever is 'popular'. I don't really get it and I wasn't looking forward to making the post for just this reason.

I don't stand to gain anything from making this post and certainly plenty to lose. If Brian was going to follow through he probably isn't going to now. I only made this public because I felt I had no other option. I tried and tried and tried (40+ emails and plenty of phone calls over six months!!!!) to work something out but if he ignores my emails and won't contact me what else am I supposed to do??

Yes, you DO have something to gain from this thread, and that is to get Brian's attention. So please don't hand me a line like that thinking I will just blindly swallow it.

And sorry if you think you can just bitch slap every other member here and that is perfectly OK to do. I'm here to tell you that it is not. Hence the infraction TELLING you so.

I guess my ads don't generate enough money to warrant even asking Brian for a response. Oh wait that's right, he's a big breeder he was right before I made the post.

Of course you can post what you want here, and you obviously have done so. But no, your posting ads here does not grant you any special immunities from cross examination or for people to be able to disagree with you. Which is what you are implying. Again, this just is not so.

As for Brian Barczyk GETTING special consideration on this site, puhleeze get real, fella. Even if Brian spent a lot of advertising money here (which he emphatically has not), that would not make a bit of difference concerning how he is treated by myself and staff here. The "big" breeders have never been involved with this site in supporting it, and I seriously doubt ANYONE can seriously believe that I would blindly side with them for any reason. This is just a flimsy excuse YOU are coming up with to try to make YOU feel better about yourself and explain away why everyone isn't jumping blindly onto YOUR bandwagon.

You are making the very same arguments that nearly EVERY person who has posted on the BOI has come up with when their argument was weak, and/or people just did not agree with them entirely. Yeah, we're all "sheeple" with a "hive mentality" because we think for ourselves and don't jump right into the corner of the ring with you.

 

[Paul Kent]

Unreal. Thanks for the infraction too. I guess my ads don't generate enough money to warrant even asking Brian for a response. Oh wait that's right, he's a big breeder he was right before I made the post.

and that would be the aforementioned snark.....

You did mention knowing how the BOI works, so you have to know that EVERYTHING on both sides is going to get a good grilling....

Calm it down a bit and see that there are people here that dont necessarily disagree with you..