Bad Guy BHB reptiles "het" didn't prove out, won't fix it

[snakechaarmer]

I would also like to take a minute to address all of these people with there purchase scenarios such as computers ,stocks, bonds etc. This is not a retail purchase in my opinion. We are not buying snakes as pets these are ultimately investments. I did not spend $20,000 on a snake this year to keep it as a pet, it was an investment.

Just as I feel the OP purchased this spider het hypo as a investment also. I also feel that the photo genetic guarantee or genetic guarantee everyone keeps talking about is sort of a insurance policy if you will just incase the animal you purchase does not prove out for some unknown reason.

I would like to give you a scenario of my own. I work closely with insurance companies and restoration companies on a daily basis. When a restaurant has a fire break out . It is up to the insurance company to hire a restoration company and get that restaurant back up to its full running condition as soon as possible.

And that insurance company is also responsible for any lost revenue that has incurred because of that fire. Every day that restaurant id down the insurance company is reliable for that loss of revenue. Maybe that was going to be a slow week maybe not. It doesn’t matter that’s why that policy is in place just as I feel that is why a guarantee of genetics is in place on a het animal.

I’m not saying if a het animal does not prove out you should be out a house and home to make it right to the purchaser. But I do feel that there has to be some sort of loss of revenue taken into consideration when working out the compensation plan. Paul Wyble Steel City Exotics

Paul, I think that is also a valid point. I think you're a very honest and reputable person and I am so glad that had our transaction years ago went bad that you would have somehow made good on it.

I also agree that the majority of the reason behind this thread was because of Brian's poor customer service. Yes, there's excuses for it but still it was a bad thing. I think we all agree.

HOWEVER, because the snake in question has not 100% been proved to NOT be a HET, the OP does NOT deserve a $4000+ dollar snake, and then another snake for every failed clutch. That is just SILLY. Especially since it hasn't been proven that he is not a het! It just seems like a bad string of bad luck.

Everybody is gonna have a different opinion, different policy, different way of looking at this, but really, nothing has been proven 100% to make Brian compensate the OP in the way he demanded.

 

[snakechaarmer]

To correct my last post I meant "out of line".

Leigh and or Kellie , please explain to me the guarantee you have in the lottery? I have never heard of such thing.

Derek, I think Kelli was being facetious in using that as an example. =p

 

[radiant dragons]

paul you just got my business . im shocked bhb has not commented on this thread does anybody no why ?

 

[Fedawg]

Derek, I think Kelli was being facetious in using that as an example. =p

LOl caught in a stupid statement and now its "just a joke",


and you said you agreed 100% , so explain to me , where there is a guarantee in the lottery and then tell me the point of genetic paperwork with heterozygous animals?

 

[brd7666]

im shocked bhb has not commented on this thread does anybody no why ?

There is no reason for BHB to say anything here. The thread is premature to say the least, the OP is not entitled to anything, and the thread basically speaks for itself, it's a joke.

 

[wyblep]

Leigh ,

What you are not realizing is that Brian offered to compensate the OP for what ever reason. Maybe he had a hunch something was not right with this animal I don’t know. But when he did make that offer I feel he accepted that this animal was not what it was supposed to be.

Brian has been doing this a long time, He knows all about the different possibilities that could have came into play with this animal not proving out and he was still willing to offer compensation. With that being said he should follow through with what he was offering. I’m not saying it should be a $10,000 animal or $1000.00 animal I’m just saying he needs to do what he said he would do.

I’m not here debating IF it’s a het or not. My problem is Brian not following through with what he said he would. He was more then willing to compensate until he was made aware of this thread which is bull ____
It was not until this subject became public knowledge on the BOI did he decide the OP was not going to be compensated anything. Paul Wyble @ Steel City Exotics

 

[snakechaarmer]

LOl caught in a stupid statement and now its "just a joke",


and you said you agreed 100% , so explain to me , where there is a guarantee in the lottery and then tell me the point of genetic paperwork with heterozygous animals?

It wasn't my statement, nor a stupid one in my opinion. Stop flinging poo.

You're right - there IS no guarantee in the lottery. It WAS a joke. But snake breeding is a gamble. It ALWAYS is. Especially with hets. You may have hets that don't prove for years. You may not ever get your initial investment back. Hell, even with visual animals, you may not ever get your investment back.

It would be like me going back to Mr. Paul Wyble and saying - you know, the visual axanthic male i bought from you failed to produce the first two years. Will you compensate me for those lost clutches?

This business/hobby doesn't work like that. And it shouldn't. It's nonsense to expect it to.

HOWEVER -

IF
BHB Reptiles provided a GENETIC PAPERWORK GUARANTEE on this animal they should ABSOLUTELY honor it if in fact the snake proves to NOT be a heterozygous animal.

However, because this animal has NOT been proven, has NOT been bred to a visual female, and because 3 breedings really can't necessarily prove anything, the OP has nothing to stand on.

As I said, if this thread was made to bring to light Brian's poor e-mail communication, for whatever reason, then that has a reason to be here. A temper tantrum by the OP because he will not compensate for failed clutches is not a valid reason.

 

[aleria]

Exactly Paul,

Seems no matter how many times it's repeated people just keep coming back to the whole is it or isn't it a het 100% for sure or not? That was not the point of the original post or this thread in the first place. The entire point was to let people know that Brian agreed that there was enough proof to warrant some sort of compensation for the snake not proving out after 4 breedings and then dropping all contact for months.

And it was already shown that it wasn't until after this thread was posted and Brian was made aware that he finally got in contact with the OP and sent a reply basically giving him a big FU instead of resolving the issue.

I am far from a patient person so I can tell you that I would not put up with being ignored by anyone that had agreed to work with me on something for as long as the OP did before posting about it and definitely would not have kept as cool a head in the matter. Being put off and bs'ed like that is just that, bs.

 

[snakechaarmer]

Leigh ,

What you are not realizing is that Brian offered to compensate the OP for what ever reason. Maybe he had a hunch something was not right with this animal I don’t know. But when he did make that offer I feel he accepted that this animal was not what it was supposed to be.

Brian has been doing this a long time, He knows all about the different possibilities that could have came into play with this animal not proving out and he was still willing to offer compensation. With that being said he should follow through with what he was offering. I’m not saying it should be a $10,000 animal or $1000.00 animal I’m just saying he needs to do what he said he would do.

I’m not here debating IF it’s a het or not. My problem is Brian not following through with what he said he would. He was more then willing to compensate until he was made aware of this thread which is bull ____
It was not until this subject became public knowledge on the BOI did he decide the OP was not going to be compensated anything. Paul Wyble @ Steel City Exotics

You're right Paul. I think he should keep his word, too. But I can clearly see in the e-mails where he got confused as to what was being demanded, WHO he was compensating, how many people, why - etc. And we all know how busy he is, which is neither here nor there. It was a train wreck of trying to figure out a reasonable way to compensate the OP and I'm not excusing Brian's lack of communication here - but I do think the OP should have handled it differently as well as Brian.

 

[radiant dragons]

i think it was 4 breedings 2 were with a proven het hypo girls the other two were het hypo virgins and from what i read early on one more clutch left

 

[radiant dragons]

jessica you are right there is alot more to this then a het not proving out

 

[KelliH]

Kelli , your totally out line using the lottery analogy.there is NO NO guarantee on anything in the lottery. Why would you get a genetic guarantee if its "just a gamble" ??? Why guarantee anything in paper if its "could have , would have and maybe" what is the point?

OK, what about the other analogy I used? I'm not saying that if someone buys a Het animal and it never proves out that they should get nothing; I am saying that they should not get two or three or more times what that animal is worth, especially when it is based on the "chance" that they "might" have produced certain animals from it.

 

[Fedawg]

It wasn't my statement, nor a stupid one in my opinion. Stop flinging poo.

You're right - there IS no guarantee in the lottery. It WAS a joke. But snake breeding is a gamble. It ALWAYS is. Especially with hets. You may have hets that don't prove for years. You may not ever get your initial investment back. Hell, even with visual animals, you may not ever get your investment back.

It would be like me going back to Mr. Paul Wyble and saying - you know, the visual axanthic male i bought from you failed to produce the first two years. Will you compensate me for those lost clutches?

This business/hobby doesn't work like that. And it shouldn't. It's nonsense to expect it to.

HOWEVER -

IF
BHB Reptiles provided a GENETIC PAPERWORK GUARANTEE on this animal they should ABSOLUTELY honor it if in fact the snake proves to NOT be a heterozygous animal.

However, because this animal has NOT been proven, has NOT been bred to a visual female, and because 3 breedings really can't necessarily prove anything, the OP has nothing to stand on.

As I said, if this thread was made to bring to light Brian's poor e-mail communication, for whatever reason, then that has a reason to be here. A temper tantrum by the OP because he will not compensate for failed clutches is not a valid reason.

The lottery statement was a joke? are you for real. ? you can't stop contradicting yourself.

LOl your statements make no sense. Snakes were bred , eggs were laid and snakes hatched. Everything went according to plan except for what the Het was supposed to be.

failed clutches ? explain that?

There is a fifth clutch on the way..... your saying no hets can be proven unless visuals are bred to them?

What would be the point of buy a pair of 100% hets? They should no longer be sold according to your statements.

 

[jmurray30]

HOWEVER, because the snake in question has not 100% been proved to NOT be a HET, the OP does NOT deserve a $4000+ dollar snake, and then another snake for every failed clutch. That is just SILLY. Especially since it hasn't been proven that he is not a het! It just seems like a bad string of bad luck.

Everybody is gonna have a different opinion, different policy, different way of looking at this, but really, nothing has been proven 100% to make Brian compensate the OP in the way he demanded.

How can you prove 100% than a snake is not a het? How do you prove a negative? You cant. But the chances of not producing a visual morph in 22 eggs is extremely low. I believe that David actually produced 13 eggs himself, while Cliff produced 9. In the 13 eggs that David himself produced the odds of not hatching a ghost are only about 2.5%. At what point would you agree that the snake is not a het? 50 eggs? 100?

 

[KelliH]

LOl caught in a stupid statement and now its "just a joke",


and you said you agreed 100% , so explain to me , where there is a guarantee in the lottery and then tell me the point of genetic paperwork with heterozygous animals?

Caught in a stupid statement? I'm not so sure about that one. You've been in this business long enough to know that it's always a gamble. It's never a sure thing.

 

[snakechaarmer]

The lottery statement was a joke? are you for real. ? you can't stop contradicting yourself.

LOl your statements make no sense. Snakes were bred , eggs were laid and snakes hatched. Everything went according to plan except for what the Het was supposed to be.

failed clutches ? explain that?

There is a fifth clutch on the way..... your saying no hets can be proven unless visuals are bred to them?

What would be the point of buy a pair of 100% hets? They should no longer be sold according to your statements.

Derek, there's no need to be rude or insulting -

1. That wasn't my analogy. It was Kelli's. I agree with that analogy and her explanation.

I haven't contradicted myself at all.

As far as breeding, if you know anything about het to het breedings, or, hell breeding in general, or can do any basic math, you'd understand that it's ALWAYS a gamble, and there's NEVER a guarantee on what you will or won't produce. To expect a guarantee or some semblance of one in breeding animals is laughable.

 

[Wraith]

Then it's a guarantee of nothing and is pointless to even mention if that's how it would be defined. People are correct that there is a chance all be it unbelievably small that some sort of error or mutation occurred where the product of a visual didn't become a het. I believe that a guarantee is specifically for this kind of freak event or the much more likely thing, a human error in labeling or some kind of accidental switch.

It is not a guarantee of nothing - it is simply a guarantee of what your chance is. The higher the percentage of the het, the better the guarantee of your chance being. I would not buy an unlabled het if I am not provided up front with the information on what my guaranteed chance in that snake is. 100% hets are of course the best route to go if you can't get a visual, but as I have had happen to me.. 25% long-shots are known to prove out too.

 

[KelliH]

What would be the point of buy a pair of 100% hets? They should no longer be sold according to your statements.

I've produced 1000's of leopard geckos and worked with more Hets, Double Hets and Triple Hets that I can even remember and list here. Sometimes you get lucky and hit the jackpot, other times it takes years. It's not a guaranteed sure thing when working with Hets. It's just not.

 

[Fedawg]

Caught in a stupid statement? I'm not so sure about that one. You've been in this business long enough to know that it's always a gamble. It's never a sure thing.

Kelli , I know I have and I have seen a lot , but you need to explain what the "gamble " is?


And I was really talking to Leigh...

 

[KelliH]

Kelli , I know I have and I have seen a lot , but you need to explain what the "gamble " is?


And I was really talking to Leigh...

My apology, I thought you were referring to me (this thread is moving fast!).

The way I see it is that when investing in an animal for breeding purposes (taking the Het issue out if it) there is no guarantee that it will:
1.) be fertile
2.) be a good producer
3.) survive to become of breeding age

When breeding Het to Het there is no guarantee that:
1.) you will produce a visual in the first, second, even third breeding
2.) when you do finally produce a visual that you will ever make your money back on the initial investment of the Het pair.

That's what I meant by referring to a gamble.