Bad Guy BHB reptiles "het" didn't prove out, won't fix it

[radiant dragons]

brian , david and chris all well respected guys in my book .

 

[radiant dragons]

brian shouldve followed thru and not have waited months .

 

[Drew Zaun]

Dude, I've SEEN it happen in court. Maybe not this particular incident but you said "And a judge would never allow compensation for the hypothetical loss of not producing the desired results". Workmens Comp is a prime example of this or the tons of cases I've seen where a company is sues because someone held them back from producing income over an amount of time.

I'm not picking a side on this case. Just saying, it has happened before and not all judges are the same. If a judge is the final determining factor, and he/she feels someone lost potential profit, it could rule in the plaintiffs favor.

This is not really accurate. In WC cases the ruling only applies to standard wages...i.e. a 40 hour work week, or whatever the salary is. Variables like overtime or commission would be left out.

In this case the variable would be how many hypo snakes would be produced? The answer is no one knows, since there is no rule nature must abide by. Fact is each hatchling has a %75 chance of being of normal pattern, so the results he achieved are to be expected.

So the issue really (if we want to get legal)...do the results trigger BHB's compensation clause? Just because Brian behaves one way means nothing in court if he has a written policy that this fails to meet (although on his website there is no evidence of this). That Brian appears to agree could be construed as a verbal agreement, especially if there is no written one, which is admissible in court. At that point Brian would have to show that the burden he bears has shifted from David to Cliff. Seeing as David sold the snake, as a het Cliff could certainly shift the burden from one party to the next, as David is now out nothing. He bought a snake at market value, he sold it at market value, in between he bred the animal and does have offspring to sell. That none were an expression of the hypo allele means little to nothing, little if there is an agreement, nothing if there isn't.

As for the proving part. The only way to prove a het through breeding is to see an expression of that trait. You can prove a het in the positive sense, but not in the negative. There is always a chance, in almost all cases a better chance actually of not seeing an expression.

The only way to prove out is to confirm with a DNA test. I am not sure if this is possible yet in reptiles, especially the designer genes. Do we know which chromosomes factor in?

Breeders who wish to guarantee their heterozygous animals need to write up their policies and make them available with their animals. I would suggest posting it on a website too, just in case. They also need to be aware that they are going to produce het for X snakes that trigger this policy, because that is just the way it is.

It is very common for people in the reptile community to misunderstand how genetics works and how to factor in the probability of different traits expressing themselves. The fact that many popular sources of information are comically incorrect does not help, vis-a-vie this year's Reptiles Annual. On page 96, in an article on Honduran Milk snakes:

Het x het: Each parent contributes a hypo gene to half its babies and a normal gene to the other half.

Really? Even if I were to stipulate that half the sperm and half the eggs contained the hypo gene, which I am not save for the sake of discussion, that does not for 1 hot second mean that eggs are fertilized by half this and half that. Do the normal sperm shut down if the first 10 eggs are penetrated by normals, leaving 10 more eggs for hypo sperm only? Hey, I guess that is a cool band name...Drew and the Hypo Sperms...too bad I can't sing or play an instrument.

Blame it on people eager to publish articles, on our school systems for not teaching us better...whatever. But what I do know is that breeders who offer genetic guarantees will get ripped off by snakes that do not "produce" though they have all the right genes. And buyers whose clutches fail to hatch a visual will always be wondering.

 

[jparker1167]

IF
BHB Reptiles provided a GENETIC PAPERWORK GUARANTEE on this animal they should ABSOLUTELY honor it if in fact the snake proves to NOT be a heterozygous animal.

So what is the difference if they give a genetic guarantee on paper and if they list the snake on the site, or tell you in person that its a het? if someone tells you its a het and then you buy it and it does not prove out, you're out of luck because it was not on paper? I would think that the word of the breeder would be enough as long as you knew they had a good rep.

if a person says the hets are only guaranteed if you have paper work on them but they do no provide paper work to begin with then they should not sell them as hets.

Brian was nice enough to agree to compensate the op for the snake, but does it really matter what was offered if he never went through with it?? you could offer $10,000 and look like a nice guy but if you are not going to follow through with it whats the point. I dont believe he should get 3 or 4 times what he spent on it but its up to them to decided whats fair. people make mistakes, its the way you handle it that shows who you really are.

joe parker

 

[smilts]

Its amazing to me there is 59 pages worth of folks beating a dead horse.

 

[chainslayer]

I need a vicoden and a beer. I can't believe I just read all 59 pages of pure insanity.lol I only have two things to say 1. Ive never delt with the op or Brian so Im not on anyones side, but the Spider "het ghost" should have been bred to some visual ghosts before this thread was started. Four het females just isnt enough to come to the conclusion that he doesnt carry the gene. 2. If and when the spider doesnt prove out, then the person that is in ownership of the animal should be compensated by Brian. The previous owners where already compensated by selling the animal.

It really just hurts my head to think about this. To think that someone,anyone,not just the op would purchase a Het, only breed it to two Hets, sell the animal (Hopefully close to its original purchase price) before the eggs hatch and then be pissed that you didnt get any visuals. Im sorry but het to het doesnt work that way. You might not get anything for years and then one year get close to all visuals. Thats why I dont like het to het breeding.

Now

 

[Magic Merlin]

After reading every single post I have come up with a solution that resolves all of the issues and is a winning scenario for everyone including the of the horses that were beaten to death.

Chris calls Brian:
ring ring ring ring ring ring ring ring ring ring..

Brian: Hello

Chris: Hey Brian it is Chris Huffman,

Brian: I know, caller id

Chris: Anyways, I think this situation with the het ghost male has spun itself into a major PR nightmare and the BOI thread is just a cluster **** of potential customers that want answers and resolution.

Brian: Tell me about it.

Chris: I have a solution to make everyone happy and make you look like a genius.

Brian: I like the sound of that.....fill me in.

Chris: Ok, first, I will have Cliff send you the het male back......David will give Cliff back his money and hook him up later. Second, you agreed to compensate "somebody" for the het not proving out, up to this point, so since you sent the het to me to start I would appreciate it if I was the one you compensated. I think you will agree fair compensation would be a visual adult male honeybee, that is a proven breeder, since that is what David was trying to create to begin with. Now, if you could do me a favor and send this proven adult male honeybee to David I would appreciate it.

Brian: So I would only be compensating you how does that make everyone else happy?

Chris: Great question, I was just getting to that part. Now, you have your het male back and can prove him out with a visual female......David will have a visual adult that he can, in turn, prove out his 2 females AND David can also loan out the male honeybee to Cliff, for free, to breed his 2 proven het females. Now here is the best part, you, David, and Cliff all post pictures of the pairings and subsequent pics of the females sitting on eggs and then hatch day clutch pictures to the BOI thread. This way the whole community gets to follow the progress of the 5 different clutches and everyone gets to show proof thier hets are actually 100% hets. Now, even if your het male does not prove out for you, you still win because you made the transaction right with the replacement of an adult proven breeder honeybee.

Brian: What happens if my male proves out for me?

Chris: Well, I think that would show be a huge boost to your reprutation because people would have confirmation that, as large as you are, you are able to keep emaculate records of genetics and that you stand behind your stock 100% but leave room for the possibility that a snake got mislabled and therefore needs to be replaced.

Brian: Sounds good.

Chris: Wait, it gets better. By you going on the BOI thread and first apologizing for blowing off David for months and then laying out my idea as your own, you will simultaniously be taking the higher road admitting your mistake of ignoring David and looking like a genius resolving all of the questions and scenarios presented in that thread. Plus everyone will be entertaining themselves with watching and waiting for the clutches to hatch and not bashing you or each other anymore. I would even go soo far as to say everyone of the 5 clutches will be sold before they even hatch.

Brian: If David and Cliff agree to this scenario I definitely would happy to make it happen.

See? Everyone one wins and the horses did not die in vain.

 

[KelliH]

See? Everyone one wins and the horses did not die in vain.

LOL

 

[Matt K]

Yes they did. See post number 589....

 

[chevyrumble55]

some people just have too much free time on their hands. I read the first and last pages and think this is all rediculous. Compensation for possible offspring? Question: what if the male was infertile? Would you be harassing Brian about that?

 

[irishanaconda]

My 2 cents: i have bought snakes from brian at bhb too and i have a few snakes from david at my house right now. As for david, he is by far the nicest person i have met in this hobby to date, brian is also usually a upstanding guy when i have called him he has answered every question... when i actually managed to get ahold of him. I bought a 66% het pied female in 2008 (she was a yearling) from brian that didnt prove out het pied but thats what i get for going poss het to try to save some money... but if i did buy her as a 100% het, then sold her to another person as that and she didnt prove out to be het, i feel that there should be compensation not just for the animal itself but for the offspring as well. BHB basically screwed years of a project, i dont believe it was brian personally but he is the boss and he should stand by his name with honor.

 

[wyblep]

I dont care who you is. That there was some funny S#$%

 

[dturner100]

There's a lot of talk about policy holding up in court. You've gotta be kidding me.

I'm an appliance sales man. If I advertise a refrigerator I don't write policy guaranteeing that it's a fridge or your money back. It's obvious. If I sell you what we believe is a refrigerator, and it turns out to be a washing machine guess what, I either owe you a refrigerator or a refund.

Now if I advertise a possible heterozygous refrigerator, and when you put groceries in it and it washes them rather than keeping them cool then you are S.O.L since you bought a possible het.

This isn't the case here though. What I see is a HUGE name breeder ignoring a situation simply because he doesn't feel that a single problem will rip his reputation apart, and he's probably right but either way it's sad that this hobby is nothing more than a money making industry for some.

 

[Magic Merlin]

There's a lot of talk about policy holding up in court. You've gotta be kidding me.

I'm an appliance sales man. If I advertise a refrigerator I don't write policy guaranteeing that it's a fridge or your money back. It's obvious. If I sell you what we believe is a refrigerator, and it turns out to be a washing machine guess what, I either owe you a refrigerator or a refund.

Now if I advertise a possible heterozygous refrigerator, and when you put groceries in it and it washes them rather than keeping them cool then you are S.O.L since you bought a possible het.

This isn't the case here though. What I see is a HUGE name breeder ignoring a situation simply because he doesn't feel that a single problem will rip his reputation apart, and he's probably right but either way it's sad that this hobby is nothing more than a money making industry for some.

Exactly! Ego is a terrible thing sometimes.

 

[bullies&balls]

Once again, how do we KNOW BHB is ignoring the situation ? Do we know either way if Brian is only dealing with one of the parties now ? "YOU" have to step back and look at this from a distance. Mnay statements made by all the parties involved, EXCEPT BHB, are just that STATEMENTS and NOT FACTS !!! E-mails have been shown between the Op and BHB, but things have changed since then and BHB was talking with the NEW owner working on a fix. Is Brian ignoring the WHOLE thing or just one person in this drama filled sequence?

I also can NOT believe people are still harping the Het parrt of this. The snake has NOT be shown NOT to be a het either. How do we know the 2 virgins HET are really hets ? Why are you not screaming for their genetic profile ? How about the to other 2 HETS are they PROVEN hets (produced ghost in past) or ar ethey just Proven breeders and produced offspring in the past ? Do you know, have you seen pics, have any of you asked to see pics?

 

[bullies&balls]

Statement should have (NONE) after BHB. sorry me eyes are bleeding wading thru this. It like a highway accident, you know is going to LOOK bad but you can't take your eyes off of it...

 

[jav07]

i had the same from Brian when a deal went wrong,he said he would make it right and then does nothing.$3500 down.

 

[aleria]

i had the same from Brian when a deal went wrong,he said he would make it right and then does nothing.$3500 down.

Please post any and all pertinent information to your transaction with Brian if that is the case.

 

[jav07]

Please post any and all pertinent information to your transaction with Brian if that is the case.

will do when i figure out how,there is around 50 emails

 

[Amelanistic Orca]

Hmmm???