Bill Leverton SCAMMER beware

[DaveyFig]

Nope, I didn't call him. Never felt the need. The forum was here. Why would I call? It seems he lied even more in private than he did in public, so a phone would be the perfect media for him to sway someones opinion with lies. Nobody to call his bluffs and all. Funny how he said all sorts of fun stuff in those emails but never backed any of it up when confronted about it in public. Maybe he gave you the name of the prosecutor on the phone? Or the UPS guy that stole the snake? anything?

 

[Jim O]

Nope, I didn't call him. Never felt the need. The forum was here. Why would I call? It seems he lied even more in private than he did in public, so a phone would be the perfect media for him to sway someones opinion with lies. Nobody to call his bluffs and all. Funny how he said all sorts of fun stuff in those emails but never backed any of it up when confronted about it in public. Maybe he gave you the name of the prosecutor on the phone? Or the UPS guy that stole the snake? anything?

Rich,

I believe that his apology was intended to cover all of that. You don't accept it, that's fine. But why keep digging up the dead horse?

 

[Jim O]

Dave* not "Rich"

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

Dave,

I'm a phone person myself, I try not to bug the crap out of people because I have 2 small children that tend to show their posterior region everytime I make a call and not everyone can deal with or wants to hear that but I do call people from Fauna and probably too much to be honest. But if anyone really wanted to hear the "whatever" or say "whatever" on a more personal level, the phone is there to do so.

Nope, but I never asked for it to be honest and I may be a bit naive, but I wanted to believe him and even I knew as I told him, I felt it just wasn't right but I wanted it to be, I called a non BOI friend in PA to be an impartial medium for me and told her the entire deal and she said, what are you stupid? But all in all I wanted to believe the whole thing and thats all I can really say about that.

 

[DaveyFig]

Rich,

I believe that his apology was intended to cover all of that. You don't accept it, that's fine. But why keep digging up the dead horse?

Jim, just as you and others have expressed their feelings, and hopes for Bills future, I was expressing mine. You have posted as much as me since the apology. I am not digging up a dead horse.Life was breathed into the horse when Bill said he was sorry and people patted him on the back for it. It doesn't deserve to just get up and trot around just yet, in my opinion, and seeing posts that go against what I was thinking made me feel the need to post what was on my mind, so I did. I am just posting the other side. My side. Agree, or not. I respect your opinions, but have my own.
How many posts did Bill have before the apology? How many lies? How many silly emails? How can a simple " I am sorry" get even a second look this early on? One post later he was an ass to Lucille.

 

[Jim O]

So you would rather he didn't apologize? You don't believe him and that's fine. But the specifics have been gone over ad nauseam. We're all familiar with them. Your repeating them again and again just seems like grandstanding and does not flatter you or do your public standing any good. We all know the UPS guy never existed. How many more smartass ways do you need to say it? Your couching it in the form of asking Wendy a question did not hide that fact.

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

I am not digging up a dead horse.Life was breathed into the horse when Bill said he was sorry and people patted him on the back for it. It doesn't deserve to just get up and trot around just yet, in my opinion, and seeing posts that go against what I was thinking made me feel the need to post what was on my mind, so I did.

I know that was meant for Jim but I personally do not see the pat on the back but some saying you admitted it, your sorry for all the crap and willing to come back here and say it, now lets see what you do next.

The horse is far from trotting off, there are plenty of people here including you Im sure that will keep an eye out for anything he does good or bad.

One post later he was an ass to Lucille.

That is one of those things that I think just did not come across a keyboard the way it was intended

 

[DaveyFig]

Jim,
I never saw anything where Bill admitted that the UPS thing never happened. I seem to remember him continueing the "you will bellieve what you want to believe" and clouding the issues by not answering questions as to whether or not he was standing by the UPS story, or admitting guilt there too. If it was there I missed it. We all know the UPS theft never happend, but to read what Bill said after that incident, one might be confused as to whether or not he was really sticking to that. He never said "That was all lies" he said he wouldn't supply the requested information, like names of agencies and the person who stole it.He wasn't going to give us anything.I know it is because he didn't have the info, but he made it sound as though we weren't worthy of it, or weren't worth the effort of getting it, much like the pics of the snake.I seriously was asking whether he made up a name or something in private about the UPS thing. I wasn't being a smartass, and you are reading sarcasm where there was none.I wasn't trying to hide anything with the question.
I would rather continue to repeat the specifics than forget them. I am not comfortable with someone reading this and jumping ahead, and the last post they see, after reading maybe 20 posts in the begining is "I wish you the best."
I hope that the posts I have made are not hurting my public standing though, after all, they are just opinions. My negative opinions about the actions of a liar should not hurt me. Whether they help my standing or not doesn't really matter though.

 

[shrap]

He feels the frustration because he knows he is going to feel a pocket book pinch. I don't think he feels bad for what he did, I think he feels bad because others know what he did.

We have a winner!!!! Johnny, tell him what he's won.....

Summed up my feelings on the matter perfectly. After all the lies (before during and after being busted) public and private, shill bidding and justifying that.... just the whole ball of wax surrounding this whole situation..... I for one will never believe a word this man says or be able to take anything he says with any kind of sincerity.

Been around too many people whose actions were just like his and not a single one has ever changed.

 

[Lucille]

Someone I respect reminded me in a very nice way that I had written the post below some time ago:

******************************************
....... anyone has the right and chance every day to a fresh start.
I am not referring to anyone specific here, but I believe the BOI has multiple uses. One is of course to alert the community to a past good or bad action.
The second is to afford a possibility of change.

I hope.....that if someone picks themself up off of the floor, having got there themselves, and makes a true change, that they deserve the benefit of a second chance.
*****************************************

Here is a moment of introspection from me: None of us see ourselves perfectly and I am inviting others to help me think this through:

I genuinely believe what I posted, above, that if someone picks themselves up and honestly tries to make good, they deserve a second chance (excluding capital crimes).

Why then am I experiencing such difficulties here? I am not understanding myself, but I do not yet feel much like forgiveness right now.

I am honest about the way I feel but do not always understand why it is I feel a certain way.

Just because someone posts a lot, like me, doesn't mean that we have it together all the time and I certainly could use some insight from others right now.

 

[romad119]

Bill's actions will make the difference in the future, not any apologoes or fauna members arguing among themselves. This thread has shown me more about other members more then it has about Bill.

Bill's rep power keeps going up reagrdless of what he does so thsoe members should start doing business with him to help him out. Then let us know how the deal went. Arguing over personal levels of 'forgive and forget' doesn't maek Bill better at business.

You can praise him with words, but until you post about successful deals with him, you are just giving empty praises. A more blunt wording comes to mind:

Put your money where your mouth is. If your wallet doesn't flow as much as your words then obviously some of the individuals "wait a week and Bill is ok" theory is just hot air.

Deals, deals, deals is what will raise Bill back up or keep down below. Anything else, IMO, should go to a different forum or thread.

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

Why then am I experiencing such difficulties here? I am not understanding myself, but I do not yet feel much like forgiveness right now.

Lucille, I think it is easier to 'forgive" when you are looking at the situation from the outside as a non involved person. Since you felt a very high regard for Bill (when you auctioned him off to me lol) I think you feel more affected and hurt by this situation that you do when it is just someone you see posting and have not made a "bond" with.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Lucille,

Maybe it’s because we can tolerate a mistake or an occasional use of bad judgment in making a decision. But one thing we can’t live with is with a lack of trust in an individual. Until that trust is regained I can’t even think about dealing or even sharing the same space with that individual.

Regards.

 

[Dennis1]

0 Tolerance

I dont know Bill Leverton or most of you here
My opinion is that after reading most of this post, I would not do an internet(mail order)deal with him ever.
I also would not buy a het from him face to face ever
If i saw him at a show and he had a reptile that i liked that wasnt too expensive i may give him a chance

I think its hard for a leopard to change its spots, Not imposible just hard
I could care less of his attitude its the fact that he has scammed someone
At his age there is no EXCUSE
Some of you know that i take my money very seriously And i just couldn't Risk it

I would just like to point out that Just because i will act in the above way does not mean that i would ridicule someone for doing differently

 

[Sasheena]

Bill's rep power keeps going up reagrdless of what he does so thsoe members should start doing business with him to help him out.

I've given Bill positive Rep points, but I will NOT be doing business with him based on that.

A positive Rep point, in my use of the system, means that the POST has value, NOT that the person is safe to do business with. He made a few posts I thought worthy of a positive reputation point, and he got that from me. And a few of his other posts have been so downright nasty he's also received negative points from me too. (one of only a handful who have received negative points)

There are members on here that I really don't care for, their views are directly opposite my own, or they have a way of expressing themselves that I find distasteful, but if they say something good, regardless of who it is, they get a positive rep point from me. If a voice in my head says "Wow, that was a good post!" I give it a positive rep. ONCE there was a post that was SO good, I went out and found another half dozen good posts just so I could give the person a positive rep point (I'd given him one too recently). Yet that person is also one I have given negative points to.

I think that people are too hung up on the "rep" system meaning anything other than "good post dude".

As far as the big apology, I'm an eternal optimist, I really do hope he means it. But I'm not going to line up to buy anything from him, and I find his "salting the mine" actions to be the true mark of his character. When it was just the one thing I was willing to hope in/believe that there was something that was extenuating that when fixed would fix the wound to his soul, leaving a scar but with the ability to mend. When he demonstrated the lack of true character and the mentality of a TRUE scammer, he lost that optimism from me. I'll chat with him here, I might agree with him in a later thread, I might still give him positive rep points if a post he makes deserves it, but I'm not going to buy anything from him.

 

[Jim O]

I have no intention of becoming anyone's "defender-in-chief" here. Bill issued an apology. I took it to mean an apology for all of the things mentioned in the first thousand or so posts in this thread. He apologized for taking "our" collective trust and abusing it. Take it for what you will.

I see that there are three general categories into which he might fit.

1. always been a liar, a thief, and a scammer and just got caught this time
2. was a straight shooter, scammed Lee, got caught, did a terrible job trying to lie his way out of it, and now wants to make amends
3. was previously a straight shooter and now has permanently crossed over to the "dark side of the force"

I have a hard time with number one seeing as how in all of this time no one has come forward to even suggest that Bill stole from or scammed them in any way. So, for me, it's down to the second or third possibility. Maybe Bill knows, maybe he doesn't, but sure as hell none of us do.

Would I deal with Bill? I am not really a "Boa guy" but if I were and if he were offering an incredible deal on visible morphs I might consider buying on approval with no cash sent up front until I received the snakes and determined that they were healthy, feeding, and otherwise as described. Hets? No way, no how.

Before you all tell me I am a "softy" let me ask you each some questions:

• How many of you have been unfaithful, even just once, in your primary relationship?
• How many of you have had a significant other (spouse, lover, etc.) be unfaithful?
• How many of you have been forgiven or forgiven the other person?
• How many of you have "best friends" who you know to have been in one position or another? or a parent? a sibling? A business partner?
• Have you disowned any of the above associates for their actions? Has their spouse or significant other ended the relationship 100% of the time?

I ask this because to me marital fidelity is a very strong indicator of character but I also understand that relationships do not begin and end on the basis of a bad decision. Character is another issue of course.

Forgiveness is a choice, albeit perhaps a highly overrated one, and in no way implies trust is restored. It simply means that people go on with their relationships and give the other party the opportunity to make amends and perhaps earn that trust back.

Let's not forget that our president probably misled us (is "misled" a nice way to say "lied"?) about the Iraq/al Quaeda/Saddam/bin Laden/WMD connection and we collectively forgave him, and entrusted him with another four years.

Is what Bill did worse than what a cheating husband did? In the eyes of the law, yes. But this is a court of public opinion, not a court of law.

 

[Bill_Leverton]

.[*]was a straight shooter, scammed Lee, got caught, did a terrible job trying to lie his way out of it, and now wants to make amends

Option # 2 is what happened. And for this I am truly sorry.And to be honest the reality of this is, only time will tell.I'm not asking no one to pat me on the back and say "oh Bill" I know what I did was a major wrong but I did it and now I have to deal with it. So what I suggest is we all just take a step back and see what the future holds on this whole thing, what do you say??

 

[pch101]

I personally cringe at the idea of ever buying anything from Bill. Not because I am worried about getting scammed (there are conditions that could be laid out to protect myself as Jim has described in the previous post. But I just because I could get a great deal on an incredibly beautiful snake does not mean it is the right thing to do. It would be a selfish thing to do in my opinion. You see, when you buy from a known Scammer, than you are supporting him and potentially funding future scamming efforts. The fact is that there he simply cannot be trusted to stop scamming. I could cover my butt and protect myself in the deal with him, but I just have no way to know if he is truly repentant for his behavior. He has proven himself to be manipulative and dishonest over and over here, and I personally think he is either #1 or #3 of Jim's choices (probably #1). But again we have no way of knowing, and we should not really have to. At this point it is his job to show us with his actions that he means to change for the better, and only over a great deal of time can that happen.

Do I have any ill will toward Bill? the answer is no. I really do wish him the best, in that I hope he learns from this and changes his ways and lives out a very happy and productive life. I also realize this is highly unlikely. But I can still wish...

There was mention that he is selling all of his stock in order to get out of the business. I think that this is a great idea, in that he can put this all behind him and hopefully learn from it and move on with his life. I also realize that it is hypocritical of me to say because of my earlier comments in regard to buying from him. I guess if I knew he was really getting out of the hobby for good, I might be inclined to buy his whole collection just to make sure...

 

[DaveyFig]

I would be more than willing to purchase animals from Bill in the future if he has something I want at a time that I can afford it(if he would even be willing to sell to me).
I would send money before it was shipped the same as an other deal,and even buy hets from him if he guaranteed them. If the transaction went smooth, and everything was in order, I would glady come back here and post about it. If there were issues(major issues, as I am not going to go off about a shipping delay of a couple days or a bad word in an email), I would post my negative experience and hope it puts the final nail in his business coffin. Until I deal with him personally, or start to see a bunch of posts from people who are dealing with him and having good transactions, I can not even begin to forgive based on a short apology. It may very well be 100% sincere, but I can not afford him the benefit of the doubt. He doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. He can not be taken at his word that he is a changed man. I would like to help prove that he is if the oportunity arises, but until then I am not going to say positive things with all of the negatives stacked against him. The negative is very plain and easy to see second or third hand, as well as in his own posts. An apology does not put a shine on it.
Bill "fell from grace" with the stealing. It is his actions after the fall from grace, and continued negative actions and posts that have taken him to a low lower than most. The apropriate time for an apology was when he admitted guilt. That was the time to rebuild himself. He made a half-asses apology then , and look how everything went down after that.
Sales and word of mouth can help, and maybe one day I can help there. I can't now, so it is hard to let him shine in my head. For others it is easier, and that is fine. I can't tell anyone how to feel. I just can't forgive until I know from my own dealings, and will never forget.

 

[DAND]

My problem with dealing with someone who is a scammer is how do you know you are not buying something that was stolen/scammed from someone else?