Bill Obston- Poor Business Conduct!

[ReptileAddictions]

"It was just some crested geckos. Like those will ever be in short supply." OMG you can't be serious? I have been trying to produce or purchase 2 certain kinds for over 2 years now.........If you are aware of a "Crested Gecko Tree" that produces what I need please forward me the map.
As for Bill................read his posts and his "bad guy" threads he had to revoke and apologize for. He has no facility. He has no breeders. What he had was 2 very special cresties Dan wanted.

 

[Alias47]

Olivia....you rock.
Very well stated...and exactly what I have been thinking...only I am not nearly as eloquent and tactful as you are!!

 

[Alias47]

"It was just some crested geckos. Like those will ever be in short supply." OMG you can't be serious? I have been trying to produce or purchase 2 certain kinds for over 2 years now.........If you are aware of a "Crested Gecko Tree" that produces what I need please forward me the map.
As for Bill................read his posts and his "bad guy" threads he had to revoke and apologize for. He has no facility. He has no breeders. What he had was 2 very special cresties Dan wanted.

None of this makes Dan's assumptions factual.
And no matter how much Dan WANTED them...he may not have been the first person to pay...so they were, in effect, NEVER "HIS" cresties...

My sister always wanted a pony...a "very special" one...
She never got it...but she never publically assaulted my parents for their unfair practices because of it...

Cresties are NEVER in short supply...Olivia is right...there may be morphs that are rare...and hard to find...if you find those "very special" ones you HAVE TO HAVE...you would stay in contact with the seller throughout...and be much quicker with payment. Just because he told you they were still available at 9:30 am...doesn't mean they still are mid-afternoon when you get around to sending a payment...just the way the world works...no matter how fair or just you feel it may be.

The longer this thread goes on...hate to say it...the more Dan and his crony sound like spoiled kids who couldn't get a piece of candy in the checkout lane...

Crying about it isn't going to change the fact that your money was refunded IMMEDIATELY...there was no theft...you just didn't get your way. BOO-HOO.

Go lay face down on the floor...scream...kick...and pound your fists on the ground. It always helps my 3 year old feel better when he doesn't get HIS way...

 

[Lucille]

lane...

Crying about it isn't going to change the fact that your money was refunded IMMEDIATELY...there was no theft...you just didn't get your way. BOO-HOO.

Now hold on, we still are not party to the facts. As I said in an earlier post, if the deal was conditioned on receipt of payment and someone else paid first, no one did anything wrong, it is the seller's prerogative to ask for money down before the deal is done.

HOWEVER, if there WAS an AGREEMENT and the seller did NOT honor it, choosing instead not to ship AFTER the agreement had been made, there is in fact a breach of integrity.

Deals are deals and once made, they should be honored. If NOT made, then other sales then made are OK. The problem here is that we are STILL not party to ALL the facts.

 

[ReptileAddictions]

Let me see if I understand this correct? It is the general assumption that say if I was in a store and paid for my animal and said I would be back with a truck to pick it up. I get back and they say heres an immediate refund. We decided to sell it to someone who didn't need to get a truck instead. THATS OK??????
What is the difference?
If someone else had paid first I still think he would have said so. Think common sense here. I have had to send out 2 very such emails in the past 8 hours. I didn't include wether or not they are being picked up or shipped. Why would I? Why would anyone? I say "Sorry, that one is no longer available it has already been paid for."
Just because he got his $ back still doesn't make it right. A deal is a deal!

 

[Alias47]

Now you hold on Lucille...

The problem here is that we are STILL not party to ALL the facts.

Which is PRECISELY why this should not be on the BOI in the first place...
And which also puts this in the same category as THREE YEAR OLD TEMPER TANTRUM...
Regardless of what the truth may hold...this is EXACTLY what this post amounts to...Dan, SpokaneGecko, myself, you, Rich, etc...any random guy at the corner pumping gas has as much of a clue to what is going on as any of us do...

Dan has not been party to the facts, yet was willing to make an attempt to slaughter this man's reputation based solely on assumption and hurt feelings...
I feel THAT is MUCH more worthy of a bad guy post...
He doesn't get his way and makes an attempt at character assassination because he is pissed off?? Sounds like a bad guy to me...

Only Bill knows the true timeline...and if and when he divulges these mysteries maybe there will be a conclusive argument for or against Dan's claims...until then it is just a case of pissing and moaning because the world isn't fair...

There are no facts to support Dan's claims...by your own admission...so why back them up until Bill "justifies himself"? Innocent until proven guilty, right? Or don't we want to live in that fair and just world everyone here is trying SO hard to achieve?

All the evidence is scarcely circumstantial...at best...with a whole TRUCKLOAD of speculation thrown in...

This is best left for the archives. Unless Bill would like to shed some light on this transaction...everyone will be flailing around in the dark on this one until the cows come home.


On a sidenote...Dan came on a little strong in the beginning...however he hasn't been the driving force on this whine parade...the people who have picked up his banner to carry it on in his name (and you know who you are) are the ones that are beating this fictional (in many ways) horse...
Dan has remained conserved and fairly quiet...which I commend him for...
Hell I'd still buy from him...if he would still sell to me...LOL

 

[Lucille]

If someone else had paid first I still think he would have said so.

I agree a deal is a deal.

The problem here is that we are dealing with a seller's reputation and I think the true facts are needed because there are other plausible scenarios for what happened.

 

[Alias47]

Let me see if I understand this correct? It is the general assumption that say if I was in a store and paid for my animal and said I would be back with a truck to pick it up. I get back and they say heres an immediate refund. We decided to sell it to someone who didn't need to get a truck instead. THATS OK??????
What is the difference?

The difference is...it is just as likely that if you went into a store and gave the clerk your money for something the guy in line in front of you bought the last item of...you would want your money back immediately...but would it be fair to berate the clerk for not having the item you wanted because someone else beat you to the store???

I still think he would have said so. Think common sense here.

Too much "thinking" not enough hard facts.
He never said they were NOT already bought and paid for...he just said they were sold locally, because he included the added feature of not having to ship them does NOT in any way imply that that was his sole reason for the transaction OR that Dan was the first to pay. How you come to that conclusion is in your own line of (il)logic... Just because you would word it another way...does not mean that the rest of the known world will conform to your standards.

Just because he got his $ back still doesn't make it right. A deal is a deal!

A deal that was never confirmed before payment was sent...
So it ISN'T a deal...

And I would say getting your money back that rapidly in an industry where every other post is about someone getting ripped off for THOUSANDS of DOLLARS is a good thing.

Seems to me...be your way of thinking...If Bill had worded his response differently...this could have been a good guy post for him...
Going from worthless, immoral miscreant to angelic, ethical do-gooder was a mere matter of semantics away.

 

[BWSmith]

It was just some crested geckos. Like those will ever be in short supply.

Amen.

 

[EriksReptiles]

Hey, He did the SAME thing to me! I sent him money and all and then he just refunds it!

BAD GUY HERE.... DONT BUY FROM HIM, HE WILL ACCEPT MONEY FROM ALOT OF PEOPLE AND THEN JUST REFUND IT!

I feel as if I loaned him money...

Thanks Erik

 

[Chameleon Company]

A prior post says:

BAD GUY HERE.... DONT BUY FROM HIM, HE WILL ACCEPT MONEY FROM ALOT OF PEOPLE AND THEN JUST REFUND IT!

Gosh, and if he kept the money, I guess that would make him REALLY REALLY BAD !!

 

[kmurphy]

It Says "Poor Business Conduct"

The original poster accused Bill Obston of poor business conduct not stealing. Sure he returned the money, big deal, he's not a crook. Just like 90% of the rest of the country.
The problem I have is that Bill hasn't come to defend himself and several posters have jumped on the originator of this thread as if he jumped the gun. Bill himself said the reason he refunded the money was that he found a local buyer and NOT because that buyer paid him first. Without him clarifying that statement then you have to take it on it's face. It makes no difference if the animals are common or rare, it is poor business either way.
He should amend his adds to say he retains the right to sell the animals to anyone up to the time of shipping regardless of who pays first. It would be interesting to see how many he would sell if his adds were truthful.

 

[Alias47]

The problem I have is that Bill hasn't come to defend himself and several posters have jumped on the originator of this thread as if he jumped the gun. Bill himself said the reason he refunded the money was that he found a local buyer and NOT because that buyer paid him first.

He never stated that it was NOT because the other buyer paid him first...which is the entire point of contention.

Without him clarifying that statement then you have to take it on it's face. It makes no difference if the animals are common or rare, it is poor business either way.

Take it on it's face??? You are suggesting that everyone come to the same assumption as the original poster...who has no more evidence that pure speculation without the seller adding to this...
Whatever happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty??
One of the founding principles of this great country.
I am NOT saying the seller is a good guy or a bad guy...I do not know him...and have never done business with him. I am simply stating that there is not enough evidence present to skewer him for bad business practices when all the evidence wouldn't even count as CIRCUMSTANTIAL...it is pure fiction...created in the minds of people who are already incensed due to frustration and disappointment from not receiving the animals they feel they were entitled to...problem being...there is no way to determine if they were actually entitled to those animals or not.

The original accuser has shown, through his own scant "evidence" that he did not follow up after receiving the reply from the seller OR before sending payment several hours after the reply was made.
This alone opens a HUGE variable in the story...that is being bridged by pure speculation.

regardless of who pays first.

It has not been shown who paid first in any of these circumstances...

Like I said, I do not know the seller...and have never done business with him...but everyone should be afforded due process...even on the BOI. Too many people are attacked and judged without evidence...

All I am asking is show something...anything...that SUBSTANTIATES these claims...and validates them...

Until then...it is STILL a nice story...but pure fiction.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Derek, I agree with the giste of your points throughout the thread,

And thought that Olivia stated a very good opinion as well. But I want to point out one thing, perhaps just a bit in humor, but when you ask this:

Whatever happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty??

That is an assumption mandated in our government court system, as I am sure you know. For better or for worse, the BOI is the Court of Public Opinion, and proof doesn't matter a lick here to a few, certainly not beyond a reasonable doubt, and some assumptions come pretty easy to others. Even with "proof", what would pass as "no big deal" to some may be "terrible ethics" to others. For the record, IMO Bill has been a bit foot-loose with his deals, and has room to improve, but also done nothing terribly wrong. Several in this thread felt that even if things were exactly as stated, it still did not rise to the level of a "bad guy" thread, but as I mentioned earlier, I can respect the anger and disappointment of the thread starter. Like I said before, seems we may need new smilies and labels, one for "bad guy", "really bad guy, "awful bad guy", "heinous bad guy", "his girlfriend is ugly bad guy", "his Momma is ......" etc., as with this and other recent threads, the standard for being a bad guy is broader than I originally thought!

 

[kmurphy]

Assumption?

Bill Obston <[email protected]> wrote:
Hi Daniel I have refunded your money since I found a local buyer and this way I can avoid having to ship. I apologize. Bill

Not to belabor the point Derek but I fail too where there is an assumption on may part when I conclude that Bill didn't ship to Daniel because he found a local buyer. This is in fact what he said and that's what "taking it on it's face means".

Kevin

 

[Alias47]

That is an assumption mandated in our government court system, as I am sure you know. For better or for worse, the BOI is the Court of Public Opinion, and proof doesn't matter a lick here to a few, certainly not beyond a reasonable doubt, and some assumptions come pretty easy to others. Even with "proof", what would pass as "no big deal" to some may be "terrible ethics" to others. For the record, IMO Bill has been a bit foot-loose with his deals, and has room to improve, but also done nothing terribly wrong. Several in this thread felt that even if things were exactly as stated, it still did not rise to the level of a "bad guy" thread, but as I mentioned earlier, I can respect the anger and disappointment of the thread starter. Like I said before, seems we may need new smilies and labels, one for "bad guy", "really bad guy, "awful bad guy", "heinous bad guy", "his girlfriend is ugly bad guy", "his Momma is ......" etc., as with this and other recent threads, the standard for being a bad guy is broader than I originally thought!

Jim...you are ever the voice of reason...I agree with you completely...
I also want to make it clear that I do not SUPPORT Bill in this...in any way shape or form. May his conscience haunt him if these allegations are true.

I understand that innocent until proven guilty doesn't even truly apply in our courtrooms anymore...I have been victim of that (if only in traffic court)...

I am just trying to make a stand...to raise the integrity level of the BOI.
In an industry that seems to be plagued by lowlifes and thieves...preying constantly on the honest, hardworking (can you see the fireworks going off behind me as I am kissing babies and waving flags?? LOL ) members of the herp community...I think it is time for people to make a stand. Problem is...Bill may be questionable...but a BAD GUY?? Maybe I am desensitized and jaded...but there are much bigger fish to fry...
Maybe that is the wrong attitude to have...but a guy who instantly refunds your money...he may have questionable ethics...hell, maybe he has never shipped and is concerned...WHO KNOWS...not you guys...not me...but a BAD GUY??

While there are truly some BAD GUYS stealing animals...or money...and continuing on and on...the same names keep coming up...
Because people still support them...
People still buy from them...and get scammed by them.
People still send them snakes in trades...and get nothing in return.

Meanwhile we are listening to someone whine about getting his money back immediately and maybe, possibly, coulda paid first...so he is pissed because maybe those animals were really his...possibly...sort of....and stuff.

WTF...thats all I gotta say.
If we all make a conscious effort to raise the integrity of the BOI...and raise the awareness level that these things will not be tolerated...it will allow our industry to grow...

Once all the "BAD GUYS" are gone...locked up and put away...THEN we can sit around idly and listen to each other whine about petty stuff...until then...suck it up...

I guess my point is...people are becoming disillusioned with the BOI...and I see it more and more as time goes by...it has the potential to be a driving force in raising the ethics of this industry...and it IS the industry standard...but the petty bad guy posts...the whining...the jumping to random conclusions based solely on an accusation rather than real evidence are damaging more than this thread...they are damaging our ability to police our own industry publically...to have a REPUTABLE forum for the honest discussion of bad business practices...to have any real leverage.
If the BOI loses it's integrity in too many people eyes...it will go from being a powerful tool against corruption and malfeasance to being so much worthless drivel...
This is a good thing...but it is only as good as we, the herp community, make it.

I am just asking for higher standards...

Okay...I'm off my soapbox...

 

[kmurphy]

correction

fail too should be fail to see

 

[Alias47]

Not to belabor the point Derek but I fail too where there is an assumption on may part when I conclude that Bill didn't ship to Daniel because he found a local buyer. This is in fact what he said and that's what "taking it on it's face means".

Kevin

I understand...
But there are several points to this whole argument that really get stuck in my craw...
No email headers...Dan could have completely fabricated the conversation. I seriously doubt that happened here...but I know Dan as well as I know Bill...which is to say, NOT AT ALL. Who am I to judge? My point is that he was refunded almost IMMEDIATELY...and claims to have paid first...when this is truly unknown...

Just because it would occur to me and to you...and several other people to state "Someone else paid first"...maybe it didn't occur to Bill...I have met many people in this industry who are not as eloquent...or tactful for that matter...as other people...or as others may aspire to be, at any rate.

I am just looking for something that proves Bill is a bad guy...something beyond speculation...I want the smoking gun.
It has become too easy for everyone here to slaughter reputations at the drop of a hat...just because their feelings got hurt...and for no better reason...

I just think we, as a whole, should hold people as accountable for factual evidence in their claims as we do the people being accused...

 

[kmurphy]

Not a bad guy post

For what it is worth Derek I don't consider Bill a bad guy. I would still purchase from Bill despite the two threads on this issue. I do feel that this belongs in the BOI though, because I would like to be aware of this potential problem if I were ever to deal with Bill. Possibly it would only mean I wouldn't count on the animals until they arrived. Probably I would be very definate about who owns the animals once payment is accepted.
Your post earlier about the BOI potentially loosing its' purpose. Hopefully that's not the case. The BOI is about herp deals; good and bad. All posts on that subject belong here, they just need to be sorted out as to their merit. There's no other place like it.

 

[Alias47]

For what it is worth Derek I don't consider Bill a bad guy. I would still purchase from Bill despite the two threads on this issue.

I agree, completely. Of course I live close enough...presumably (being only one state away)...that I could pick up...and not worry about shipping. Now if I drove a couple HOURS and they were already gone...I would be pretty upset...because I wasted a large amount of time...and money (gas, food, etc.) to go up there...
I can see the point of this being on the BOI...but when someone searches Bill and sees frowny faces and BAD GUY BEWARE...it seems to me to be OVERKILL...but that is just me.

The BOI is about herp deals; good and bad. All posts on that subject belong here, they just need to be sorted out as to their merit. There's no other place like it.

I agree...there is no other place like it...but many are becoming disheartened in it as a strong force in policing the industry. I see this happening because of the lack of accountability and the "wolf pack" mentality that has become the norm here... I would just like to see it live up to it's potential...