Inquiry Billy Gangemi, Russian Tortoises, HELP!

[lydiacourtney]

repetitive

There are discussion forums here more suitable for your questions, which should have been asked before you ever bought those animals.

Yes, Chris, and for the 100th time, they were asked and answered incorrectly by Billy, who knowingly got wc animals from the Ukraine, SHOULD have known enough about getting wc torts to know that they are prone to be ill, and should have at least treated them prior to turning them over a mere week later. Why didn't HE know the proper procedures? Where was HIS research? Why did he sell them prior to making sure they were ok? Why is the responsibility for his poor husbandry 100 percent on my shoulders?

Now.. Chris, I feel that you have said the same thing, in several different ways for a couple of days now, and I'm getting a little impatient with trying to find new ways to explain the same simple concepts to you. So far, I have tried to answer your questions, but your rant and blaming is clearly a personal thing. Since you are repeating the same argument over and over, unless you have something novel or surprisingly helpful to say, so long and thanks for all the fish. I'm not your punching bag, so give it a rest.

 

[lydiacourtney]

Lydia, perhaps a more appropriate place to seek advice for your husbandry, care and issues is the Turtles & Tortoises Discussion Forum here, linked below.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=605

Thanks, Laura.

 

[Mike Schultz]

Good lord. What a thread!

 

[Chris Kennard]

Yes, Chris, and for the 100th time, they were asked and answered incorrectly by Billy, who knowingly got wc animals from the Ukraine, SHOULD have known enough about getting wc torts to know that they are prone to be ill, and should have at least treated them prior to turning them over a mere week later. Why didn't HE know the proper procedures? Where was HIS research? Why did he sell them prior to making sure they were ok? Why is the responsibility for his poor husbandry 100 percent on my shoulders?

Now.. Chris, I feel that you have said the same thing, in several different ways for a couple of days now, and I'm getting a little impatient with trying to find new ways to explain the same simple concepts to you. So far, I have tried to answer your questions, but your rant and blaming is clearly a personal thing. Since you are repeating the same argument over and over, unless you have something novel or surprisingly helpful to say, so long and thanks for all the fish. I'm not your punching bag, so give it a rest.

Sorry I missed the correspondence between you and Billy where you asked the questions of him that you asked in the post I just referenced. And for what it's worth, you have not proven that you were not at fault here. I haven't seen anyone else who bought from that batch posting there inflated melodramatics laced with slander here. Your impatience with me doesn't concern me. Give it a rest? LOL! Give the melodramatics a rest.

 

[Gangemiw]

This thread is crazy hence why I no longer am subscribed. That being said the reason it was under eastern exotics is because my PayPal account that I made in middle school happened to be associated with an email I made then as well, that was eastern exotics. So now to this day when I send a payment it still comes up. Even though my PayPal is updated to my current email adress. Which the owner of easternexotics.net. Is aware of and so is Repticon. This isn't like some scandal. Anyone who was actually involved with reptiles would know this. When I go to the national breeders expo and other expos I always go by William Gangemi, this just happened to be a fluke thing on mine and Repticon's part. Anyway, thanks for all that have seen this thread and have listened to it. Also thanks Lydia for the publicity and making it quite obvious to the public what a complet fucking whacko you are. I also wish I had never sold you these tortoises as no tortoise should have ever been improperly taken care of and murdered the way that you did.
#R.I.P.RUSSIANTORTOISE #TURTLESERIALKILLER #GETALIFE

 

[Chris Kennard]

You claim this is a moral issue, not about the money. A month later you go after the seller, seek advice here that you've had a month to research and waited a month after the vet visit to slander someone who didn't want to deal with a problem customer, yet still offered to do the RIGHT THING! The only reason I can see as to why you're still here is, you're not getting the attention you need from anywhere else.

 

[lydiacourtney]

Sorry I missed the correspondence between you and Billy where you asked the questions of him that you asked in the post I just referenced. And for what it's worth, you have not proven that you were not at fault here. I haven't seen anyone else who bought from that batch posting there inflated melodramatics laced with slander here. Your impatience with me doesn't concern me. Give it a rest? LOL! Give the melodramatics a rest.

Chris,

I'm not trying to prove that I wasn't at fault!! I couldn't care less if you think I'm at fault. Truly, if someone could tell me what, specifically, I did wrong in order to cause this, I would be elated, because it would give me the information I need to make sure our sick girl makes it. This is why I posted the pic of the enclosure, and my impetus for reaching out to Billy at all. If he has other tortoises from the same batch, he has to know WHAT it is, and if he would just TELL me, I could treat it. But it seems that more people want to complain about me than to just say something like, "oh yeah, I had some wc tortoises one year that had respiratory infections and the problem was _______" or "have you tried doing _________?"


Also, I'm willing to bet that if others from that batch DID have issues, the owners would not know how to find Billy. We had to go through several channels to find him.

ps: melodrama is my specialty, what's yours?

L

 

[lydiacourtney]

You claim this is a moral issue, not about the money. A month later you go after the seller, seek advice here that you've had a month to research and waited a month after the vet visit to slander someone who didn't want to deal with a problem customer, yet still offered to do the RIGHT THING! The only reason I can see as to why you're still here is, you're not getting the attention you need from anywhere else.

You reptile people are some angsty-chip-on-your-shoulder-don't-really-like the-consumer-but-know-we-need-them-so-really-enjoying-the-chance-to-make-one-the-punching-bag folks.

and... when challenged you get personal, instead of breathing deeply and trying a kinder way. Seriously, Chris. Anger management. You're going to have a stroke or a heart attack.

hugs, honey.
Lydia

 

[Chris Kennard]

You reptile people are some angsty-chip-on-your-shoulder-don't-really-like the-consumer-but-know-we-need-them-so-really-enjoying-the-chance-to-make-one-the-punching-bag folks.

and... when challenged you get personal, instead of breathing deeply and trying a kinder way. Seriously, Chris. Anger management. You're going to have a stroke or a heart attack.

hugs, honey.
Lydia

How witty of you. You have exhibited much more anger with your little passive aggressive digs than I have with my observations and opinions here. Your objective here is tiresome and at times seem a bit deceptive. Maybe you should direct your anger toward someone who is wrong. I'm sure there's no shortage of mirrors in your house.

 

[lydiacourtney]

This thread is crazy hence why I no longer am subscribed. That being said the reason it was under eastern exotics is because my PayPal account that I made in middle school happened to be associated with an email I made then as well, that was eastern exotics. So now to this day when I send a payment it still comes up. Even though my PayPal is updated to my current email adress. Which the owner of easternexotics.net. Is aware of and so is Repticon. This isn't like some scandal. Anyone who was actually involved with reptiles would know this. When I go to the national breeders expo and other expos I always go by William Gangemi, this just happened to be a fluke thing on mine and Repticon's part. Anyway, thanks for all that have seen this thread and have listened to it. Also thanks Lydia for the publicity and making it quite obvious to the public what a complet fucking whacko you are. I also wish I had never sold you these tortoises as no tortoise should have ever been improperly taken care of and murdered the way that you did.
#R.I.P.RUSSIANTORTOISE #TURTLESERIALKILLER #GETALIFE

Ah, he speaks.

That's actually kind of a funny story about middle school and it does clear up the whole eastern exotics thing. I admit I was wrong about that, as it seems you are telling truth.

Believe me, saying mean things about me murdering a tortoise could not possibly make me feel any worse about this.

Now, about the rest of the batch... and it is really important that you don't lie about this, because it will narrow down causes for me for Taquito, the little lady torty, and could help me help her...did any of the other tortoises from that batch end up sick or dying? Honestly, if I could figure out that I was doing something wrong and not lose the female, you could make fun of me and call me whacko all day long. I don't need more friends, and you don't seem very nice, anyway.

I want to know if you know exactly whats wrong with my tort or if I have inadvertently created a toxic environment for them. So, the information you have about the rest of the batch can help me. Simple. What I wanted then, and what i want now. After that, I will want to make sure all the other torts are getting care. Then I will go away! (yea! for you! yea! for me! yea! for every angsty herp-y here)


Lydia

 

[lydiacourtney]

How witty of you. You have exhibited much more anger with your little passive aggressive digs than I have with my observations and opinions here. Your objective here is tiresome and at times seem a bit deceptive. Maybe you should direct your anger toward someone who is wrong. I'm sure there's no shortage of mirrors in your house.

Thanks, buddy. I guess we found out where your motivation for roasting me was coming from.

 

[Chris Kennard]

Thanks, buddy. I guess we found out where your motivation for roasting me was coming from.

This simply proves your ignorance. I was unaware of his message until I viewed your post. I have never had any correspondence with him here or outside of this thread. Nice try though. Your antics here only support the accused reason for not wanting to deal with you. I am pretty sure, given your investigative skills, you will be happy to prove my point by posting the exact time I viewed your thread alerting me of his message to me and when I actually viewed his message. Make sure you post how often I check that section of my profile and post that as well Ms. Columbo. You just proved many people's point here.

 

[Chris Kennard]

Oh, and William, you're welcome.

 

[lydiacourtney]

This simply proves your ignorance. I was unaware of his message until I viewed your post. I have never had any correspondence with him here or outside of this thread. Nice try though. Your antics here only support the accused reason for not wanting to deal with you. I am pretty sure, given your investigative skills, you will be happy to prove my point by posting the exact time I viewed your thread alerting me of his message to me and when I actually viewed his message. Make sure you post how often I check that section of my profile and post that as well Ms. Columbo. You just proved many people's point here.

fair enough.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Lydia, you will have a PM shortly. Refrain from posting until the matter of its topic has been settled.

 

[EdwardK]

\

Now, about the rest of the batch... and it is really important that you don't lie about this, because it will narrow down causes for me for Taquito, the little lady torty, and could help me help her...did any of the other tortoises from that batch end up sick or dying? Honestly, if I could figure out that I was doing something wrong and not lose the female, you could make fun of me and call me whacko all day long. I don't need more friends, and you don)

If you want to find out exactly what was wrong with your other tortoise and thus what is most probably wrong with the second one, you should have had a necropsy done on the first one. A full necropsy including histopathology is going to tell you far far more than badgering the original seller. The symptoms you related could have been caused from more than one cause and without definitive testing on your animals, you will never know the actual reason, whether it was bacterial, viral, protozoal, fungal or a combination of more than one of the above... badgering the seller isn't going to provide you with any real answers as there isn't a chain to prove that the cause of your tortoises problems originated with the animals before he sold them or after they sold them. One of the things that is continually mentioned to you is that wild caught animals are a risk, one of the real reasons that they are a risk is that the entire chain of custody from collection to the final buyer can result in immunosuppression and pathogens/parasites that were not a problem before this whole process overwhelm the animal often leading to death. This is in no small part why wild caught animals are often considered to be a big risk for people to purchase.

some comments

Ed

 

[tlmoon]

Lydia, I really do believe you mean the best for the animals, but you entered into this hobby, had an unfortunate experience and now you've gone on the attack. Yes, the BOI can be adversarial, but there are many good people in this community and almost every single person here cares about reptiles very deeply. They may not express it the same way, or share the same views, but most people care a lot and take good care of their pets and animals. Sure, there are some bad apples, as there are with everything, but most are good people and responsible. So if you come in fighting, you'll probably go out fighting, and in the process you will miss out on the wisdom and experience of a lot of people.

The WC caught issue isn't as black and white as you might think. As someone mentioned, virtually all bearded dragons in the hobby are the offspring of animals who were originally smuggled out of Australia. It's been generations now, but your beardie is descended from an animal that was taken illegally out of the wild and brought to the US. The same situation happened with many dart frog species and a lot of others. At some point, the animal becomes a common and acceptable CB pet. No, I don't support poaching animals, at all! But, the moral high ground may not be as far up as you think. And, let's be realistic, you directly contributed to the import of WC animals - not on purpose, but because of not knowing something that's fairly common knowledge for newbies. Now you know better and you seem to have a strong commitment to sourcing CB, healthy animals going forward. I point this out not to criticize, but just to point out that you are not as 100% in the right, and Billy is not as 100% in the wrong, as you seem to see it.

 

[Herpin Man]

Lydia, I have not had much time for posting in this thread, so I will summarize a few of my thoughts on this situation here.
I understand that you have the best interests of the tortoises in mind. You have also admitted to a certain degree of naivete with respect to purchasing herps. We’ve all been there. However you seem to have turned that naivete into outrage, at the herp community in general, and the seller in particular. I will agree that you and the seller could have communicated better at the time of the transaction; perhaps he could have taken more time advising you, and perhaps you could have asked more questions. You said that you haven’t tried to play the victim, but I do get the subtle impression that you are blaming the herp community as a whole, when it was primarily your own lack of knowledge that led to this situation. Be assured that virtually all of us here have, at one time or another, lost animals due to our own lack of knowledge.
You have indicated that you feel taking herps out of the wild is “stunningly immoral”, and seem surprised that people are ok with it. What you may not realize is that, in the reptile and amphibian hobby, captive breeding is relatively new. When many of us, including myself, were beginners in the hobby, we would not have thought to ask if an animal was captive bred or wild caught either- because captive breeding didn’t really exist. Even the zoos rarely had herps that bred for them. Out of the thousands of species of reptiles and amphibians in the world, only a very small percentage are available as captive bred. That is why, for most of us, wild-caught specimens don’t seem that unusual. However, morals being subjective, there are many different scenarios where I, too, consider collecting from the wild to be immoral, and I’m sure many others feel the same way. We also consider it stunningly immoral when the last tiny bits of habitat for Chinese alligators, axolotls, and other rare species are destroyed. But that is the reality.
It’s a bit offensive when you make a sweeping, negative generalization about “you reptile people”. First, you are having a conflict with only a tiny handful of people here. Second, the majority of us here do not make a living selling reptiles. We, too, are primarily consumers and hobbyists- like you. For better or worse, you yourself are now “reptile people”. Here’s another interesting tidbit- we don’t like it when our animals die, either. We also don’t like bad sellers. That is the entire reason the BOI forum exists.
It is a bit disturbing to me that you now seem to have negative feelings about herp keepers in general, and perhaps fauna users in particular. I guess like anything else, the herp hobby is what you make of it. In this case, you now have an adversarial relationship with some of the users here. However, the name calling and insults did originate with you. Some have been a bit heavy handed with their responses, but for the most part, they were merely responding in kind. If this exchange has been confrontational, it is primarily of your own making.

 

[lydiacourtney]

Ed- I'm very interested to hear more about immunosuppression.

Theresa- I agree that none of this is black and white, and that the truth lies somewhere in the middle, outside of the emotional component.

Greg- Well said, and I'm sorry to come off as negative toward herp keepers. I was being personally attacked by members of this list, and my responses were not meant to be as sweeping as they appeared.

Nickolause, et al, my name is Lydia C. Courtney. I am in the process of hyphenating my husband's last name in there, so Lydia C. Courtney-Pope, if you want the full future version, and not the current legal version. His name was on the vet work, so that's why the vet papers said "Pope." Sorry for any confusion.

I propose a new and more positive thread, as the night crew seems somewhat toxic. I would very much like to understand the immuno-suppression of wc animals, and I guess Nickolause is a scientist and probably has a lot of good information and so does Ed.

Those who want to be positive and inform me respectfully can meet me there. Those who want to criticize and blame (and yes, I see the hypocrisy in my own statement) can go their own way or continue to rail on me, here.

 

[Lucille]

I propose a new and more positive thread

A discussion forum thread might be interesting.
As far as responses to this actual situation, one of the reasons that this site works so well is that readers read all of the responses, positive and negative, and judge for themselves the value and credibility of each response.

You cannot really pick and choose responses to try to engineer a perfect-for-you thread, and an effort to do so might be seen as manipulative, since those with valid negative responses bring valued opinion to the table and may actually contain information and thoughts that may be of value to you.