Blazing Blizzards for $250 - Morph Pricing drops

[aliceinwl]

I should add, I'm not interested in getting any leos from PP. Too many horror stories. I'll wait for the little breeder trying to undercut them.

-Alice

 

[Gregg M]

I think that the prospect of making a little money appeals to us all, and I can't fault anyone for being a little irked at PP. I think that if anyone feels really mad / cheated, however, they've also got to be really blind. This is nothing new in the leo market.

That is exactly my point.... But I do not think anyone should be irked..... The leo buisiness is like a game of poker..... Someone else is going to have the better hand and they will take full advantage of it..... And yes, making some cash is great and everyone should make money for their hard work..... Even though breeding leos is not exactly hard it is still something alot of people are devoted to...... I also feel that all reptiles should carry a price tag higher than what they are now but anything past the 1500 dollar mark is just rediculous.....

I kinda like what PP did...... It was a humbling situation for some breeders that needed to be humbled and it gives regular people a chance to work with BBs..... Like I said, I do not care either way because I have no interest in BBs..... But if they did the same thing with SHTCTBs I still would not care...... I breed what I like because I like it, not because of the money I can make..... I breed a ton of gaboon vipers and I hardly make enough to cover feeding cost......

 

[E2MacPets]

Steven,
You would still have that same feeling of achievment no matter what..... It would be like me getting mad at someone for producing tangs that are like mine for a low price..... I would not give a rats behind..... Why??? Because I know that I produced great looking and healthy animals..... Who cares what the other guy is doing...... No matter what other people are producing or selling the product for, you should still feel the same level of achievment with what you produce..... If the price tag that someone else puts on an animal is enough to bum you out and get you pissed off, than you are most likely involved in that project because of the money you thought you might make not because of the achievment aspect..... If you get mad over price drops, you are mad because your income just dropped with it.....

Steven, I know you are not one of these greedy people so my comments are not directed at you in any way.....

Gregg,

The reason to be upset at the price drop is that you'd be bummed out to see the same cycle repeating.... there are very few breeders who I would purchase a patternless/PA leo from without worry that I'll recieve a kink tail, for instance. The desire of so many to buy the cheapest specimen on the market and breed the heck out of it depresses me greatly.

There were/are many ethical breeders working on all three varients of the blazing blizzard. PP dumping the prices just means less time for the ethical breeders to gain a market share that could allow the spread of diverse bloodlines.

 

[Gregg M]

.
There were/are many ethical breeders working on all three varients of the blazing blizzard. PP dumping the prices just means less time for the ethical breeders to gain a market share that could allow the spread of diverse bloodlines.

These "ethical breeders" can just do what they have been doing and not worry about what the supposed "unethical breeder" is doing...... I dont know, I just cant see anyone being mad unless it is hurting them in the pocket...... I have said this before, no one here can talk about ethics..... If we were so ethical, these morphs would never be..... All of these line bred and recessive morphs would not exist..... If you think about it, we would all need a lesson in "ethics"..... I mean is it even ethical to keep wild animals caged up in our homes???? When you captive breed animals to sell to the public you can not be a purist and you are not super ethical..... That is a fact, not an opinion....

Can there be ethics in something that is not ethical????

 

[E2MacPets]

Ah what a good debate that can be....

Is 'less bad' better than 'bad?'

What exactly is so bad about providing care for an animal that is more than adequate to provide it with a 20 year lifespan with food, water, heat, and all other basic needs met on a consistent daily basis?

If we take pleasure in breeding animals in ways that are ethical (and in a captive setting I do not find breeding specimens that are capable of living healthy lives in captivity to be unethical) what is bad about that?


Oh another thread gone off on a tangent, how lovely :-D

 

[Gregg M]

Steven,
Just so we do not through this topic off, I will post a thread about ethics tomorrow.... Oh and thanks for your input on this thread..... You have opened my eyes to another point of view....

 

[StinaUIUC]

Quick question Gregg...do you know anyone who isn't irked when someone has a better hand then them in poker?...whether playing for money or not? 'Cause I don't! You're bound to be at least a little resentful when someone does something like PP's done if you're trying to get in on the action...whether you care about the money or not is besides the point. Most people will be at least a little irked about it. Not me personally...but that's because I'm not going for the bb's or anything else new for that matter...lol If I was trying for something new just for the challenge...I'd be resentful if someone beat me to the punch...but it wouldn't have anything to do with money! Anyway...just thought I'd add that

 

[Gregg M]

Yeah stina,
I get pissed if someone has a better hand but only because I am loosing money...... But if I am playing poker for match sticks, I aint gonna get mad..... See what I am saying????

 

[Gregg M]

But at the same time I do see Stevens and Kellis point also..... I suppose there could be a gray area with the better breeders on this site with this topic......

 

[Bringerofdoom]

Gregg would you be kinda irked, if say, someone buys babies from you, Then breeds them and produces even more awesome babies. Then when they goto sell them, they sell them at 1/2 of what they paid for the adults and 1/2 of what you currently sell your leo's at now?

Think What if tremper did the same thing PP did at about this time of year with A.p.t.o.r.s. Alot of people who invested into them would be kinda ticked, that now they all got to lower their prices to match his. Cause unlike PP, tremper would be competetion to the aptor breeders.

Anyone out there could kill this market, if they really did not care about keeping the market up. They could spend all their money aquiring really great stock (aptors, sunglows, snows, etc), breeding them and then re-selling the hatclings at prices that compare to what petco has their leo's on sale for. Then the people who aquire those and breed them, if they never knew the value of them, they would sell them at similar prices or lower than what the aquired them for.


I only whish some underselling would happen to help lower these ________ gas prices.

 

[dwedeking]

I get pissed if someone has a better hand but only because I am loosing money

Some people are competitive and it's not tied directly into money per se. I play just as fiercely for matchsticks as I do for $20 bills. Part of the emotion that you see is just the competitive nature of the reptile world. It comes out vocally here because people need to vent to like-minded people even if the only constructive recourse is that they get it off your chest (and complaining to non-reptile people just doesn't give you the same relief that talking to someone who understands).

Quality issues aside, PP may be just capitlizing on the market. They may forsee that the market will soon be flooded with this particular morph and finding a way to move larger numbers and what they feel are decent profit margins. Each vendor will have a different level of expected returns on investments and different game plans to acheive that. There is nothing you can do to change it as it's part of the process of a free market (which we only partially enjoy here in the US, ie gas prices).

My personal experience in business is to compete where there is limited competition instead of going head to head with someone. As an example, a manufacturer comes out with a new product. I'll put it on the market with a 50% mark up. A competitor brings it out with a 10% mark up. We both purchase the product at the same price. I do a couple of things. I can whine about how the competitor is a moron and that it's a poor business plan. Or I can be constructive and look for new ways to market the product so that I can compete and yet still make my expected profit levels (to cover overhead etc). I can advertise where my competitor is not. I can carry a similiar product by a different manufacturer (so the consumer has a choice). I can add value to the product (better customer service, in the case of leopard geckos it could be higher quality). I can offer the product in bulk so that while I'll be working on smaller margins the overall profit will be at an acceptable level. My point being there are many ways to compete. Look at other highly competitive markets (home electronics for example) and look at how the major retailers are competeting to give you ideas.

 

[Gregg M]

Like I said Mike, I do not care about what the other guy is doing..... There are many other things to be worried about plus I know my stock is top quality and so is the care they get in my hands...... My pics speak for themselves..... I am not in it to make a living.... I do it for fun and if I make alittle money than that is cool too...... Do you honestly think I would even attempt to sell my leos for what Urban is asking??? No way.... If anything, my offspring will go to another breeder or hobbiest that has something good to trade or they will go for the average price good quality tangs go for..... If someone wants to undercut me, so be it..... I will not give a rats arse..... I do not care about the money..... I like to see what I produce and I like the reaction I get from other people here on fauna when I post a pic...... The compliments I get from the bigger breeders and the regular hobbiest on the site means more to me than a few bucks.....

 

[Ross Payan - LA]

Wow... I've been at the beach since Sat. so I'm not sure what all has been said. With that in mind I'll just respond to the original post, lol.

All simple recc. morphs follow the exact same pattern just about. Albinos have held up the best price wise because you can still work on improving coloration and patter/lack there of. (I'm in love with Kelli's hybino bells, and she'll be sending me a big killer group this summer right Kelli? =) I'll have the albino hognose waiting for ya, hehe)

Basically if you are looking for an investment then stick with something that is at least partially line bred. Recc. only morphs drop like a rock when they are produced in any quantity. A BB is a BB is a BB, not much variation or room to improve. There's not much you can do with BB's besides producing more BB clones.

If ROI is important to you then stick with something line bred. Tangerine's and carrot tails have been around for quite some time now and still get top dollar. The high end hybinos are also holding value, etc. Personally I'm heavy into the red stripes. I love the color and pattern variations in them.

Now I never got into BB's, but I can totally understand why people work with them. Who wouldn't want to the be first "real breeder/hobbyist" to produce quality BB's, especially of different bloodlines. If I had more space I would have started a BB project for sure. I'd get a kick out of seeing those red eyes stare at me, regardless of price =)

The bottom line is work with what you like... and enjoy yourself.

I still think PP was a bit "shady" with this whole thing. How can you sell BB's for such a high price just months ago and then right as your CUSTOMERS are about to have animals for sale you dump on them like that. Ah well, I'd be willing to bet they won't be getting much repeat business out of anyone who bought into the BB project through them.

One strange thing about this "business" is that your competition are also your customers and vice versa. You can't get too far pissin people off like that in the herp world.

Just my opinions.

It's been a long day of driving and I'm sunburned... nap time =)