Blocked glottis on snake -any advice urgently welcome

[Helenthereef]

Thanks for the thought Caro, I had thought briefly about lung worms, but I don't see where he'd have picked them up - he's been in my care almost 10 years now, and I feed him either chicks I have reared from newly-hatched "eggs-on-legs" or frozen chicken wing portions.

To be honest, being where I am, my options are limited. We've tried Baytril, and we're still waiting for the culture results, so now I'm just hoping that nursing, steam baths and nutrition will do the trick. He hasn't had a wheezing fit for 2 weeks now, but past experience shows this means nothing.

One thing - just been to the vet again and they are suggesting nebulisers. Anyone had any experience of using nebulisers to deliver medications to a snake? If so, which medications please?

 

[Helenthereef]

Nutri-gel?

The vet has suggested dietary supplements. I am still waiting for the Nutribac to arrive, but they do have Nutri-gel. It's a high calorie supplement used in cats and dogs.

She suggested I look at the ingredients first to ensure there is nothing that might harm a snake. Any opinions on this MOST welcome - would you give this to your snake?

http://www.vetnpetdirect.com.au/NUTRIGEL


Composition: Contains Vitamins A, D, E, B1, B2, B6, B12, Nicotinamide, Calcium Pantothenate, Folic Acid, Iron, Manganese, Magnesium and Iodine in a palatable base consisting of fats, proteins and carbohydrates, providing approximately 1500 kilojoules of metabolizable energy per 100g.

 

[bcr229]

My only concern would be that a high-energy food supplement for animals often means it's relatively high in carbs compared to fats and proteins, which isn't appropriate for a snake. However, if the animal tolerates it then IMO it's better than nothing.

I'm assuming it would be mixed with water into a thin paste or slurry and then fed using a tube.

 

[hotlips]

On a previous forum, I can recall someone touting the use of a nebulizer for a snake with an RI...let me get back to you on that, it's been a long while. I do remember it was somewhat controversial, as far as what they used in it. (I remember thinking I'd have to be pretty desperate to use what they did- fearing harm to the snake.)

Likewise, I've only used supplements designed for reptiles, fearing the wrong concentration of ingredients that might harm a snake. If I'm not mistaken, Nutri-gel contains a fair amount of high-fructose corn syrup to boost the calories...what that does for a snake, I cannot imagine? It's designed for larger & very different warm-blooded animals, and no, I wouldn't use it. When I've tube-fed snakes, I used Gerber's chicken baby food, thinned with water so it goes easily thru the syringe & tubing, & usually added reptile vitamins as well as a drop of olive oil. I've brought around many a non-feeding snake that way, & you can add oral meds. if need be.

Lung worms- spread by snails/slugs, rats, etc. But don't chickens eat most anything?
(like a slug???) Maybe I've just been watching too many episodes of "Monsters inside me"? LOL

 

[hotlips]

The product we have here is called Nutri-Cal but I think it's essentially the same as your Nutri-gel? It offers 0.2% protein, 30% fat etc, & contains (in decreasing order) corn syrup, soybean oil, malt syrup, water, fish oil, cane molasses, & all the supplements. I'll stick to chicken babyfood+ as it's well-tolerated & closer to normal snake nutrition.

 

[hotlips]

This wasn't the forum I originally saw this on, & note the date (2012). There seems to be "anecdotal success" (-questionable) using the disinfectant F-10 in a nebulizer for RI in snakes; I think this got started with "Snakebytes" TV program (which is a "reality show" in a large commercial reptile business), I looked at a few episodes ages ago & wasn't a fan. I have used F-10 to disinfect snake cages only...and the reason I wouldn't make a snake breathe it is all the cautions on the label, but you can read more & decide whether or not you want to try this, I won't judge. I'll just say that what a commercial dealer may be willing to do does not always match what I'm willing to do, because I am attached to my pets. Read thru this- there are pros & definitely cons>>>
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...r-Respiratory-Infection-With-F10-Nebulization

 

[Helenthereef]

Many thanks Melinda and Caro, that's all really helpful. I'll mull it over and digest what I can (pun intended ). Yes, the vet had suggested watering Nutri-gel down with water, which I would tube in, but I was also concerned about the amount of sugars there might be in it, and you have both brought that point up.

I hadn't considered baby food, and that is something I can get here, so that might be worth a try. The vet had also suggested supplementing with children's vitamins.

I only rear the chickens for 2 weeks, in an indoor enclosure, and feed them commercially prepared dry pellets (and sometimes rice) so unless the pellets contain lung worm eggs (which is not impossible I suppose, no idea exactly what is ground up to make them) I don't see how they could be contaminated. Would worms cause mucus or just lung damage? This is definitely soft white mucus he "coughs" up, not a worm body.

 

[hotlips]

Be sure you read the labels on baby food too...I recommend Gerbers as it's the best ingredients I've found, though I haven't read every baby food label in the world.
Gerbers 2nd Foods, "chicken & chicken gravy" to be exact, contains only ground chicken, water & cornstarch. When I needed to tube-feed a small snake for a while & didn't want the open jar of baby food to go bad, I dropped spoonfuls onto a metal cookie sheet & made "ice cubes" out of the leftover so I could thaw & use it as needed. It's good stuff, well tolerated by snakes, & no sugar or HFC. I keep a jar on hand, & any leftover is also happily consumed by my dogs. (I once rescued a bearded dragon using baby food too, only I used fruit & veggie-versions.) If you ever have a dehydrated reptile, Pedialyte comes in handy too...it will add essential electrolytes.

You should be able to order reptile vitamins online: Rep-Cal "Herptivite is what I use currently & their info. warns against Vit A toxicity & uses only beta carotene, etc.

If this is your first time to tube-feed a snake, I can offer more pointers. If done gently, you'll be more stressed than the snake...

Your chickens are probably safe, & I don't know what could survive their pellet food, I just know that chickens naturally eat all sorts of things (bugs etc) when outdoors. I am
also not an expert on worms, but from what I've come across, lung worms could cause symptoms (mucus, irritation & damage) without actually seeing them, until they are really bad, or until forced out with medication that kills them. It's just a suggestion to run by your vet, who I'm sure would know more about that. Many animals can get them, & if you ever watch the series "Monsters inside me" you'll learn more about such parasites & the weird symptoms they cause. (gross & fascinating at the same time)

 

[hotlips]

Back to the question of steam treatments (and FYI) Vicks VapoRub contains menthol, camphor & eucalyptus, all of which work great on humans but not sure they're safe for snakes. I've never heard of anyone using it on snakes, & plenty of cautions about not exposing snakes to cedar (shavings) which has a similar ability to irritate snake lungs & some say is toxic to them as well.

After a course of antibiotics, I agree with adding probiotics (Nutribac) to replace all that was lost from the meds. I also agree that moving around more (in a larger cage) would be helpful to clear the secretions. Sure hope she makes a full recovery soon.

 

[Helenthereef]

So, I went baby food shopping (a new experience for me as I am child-free...) and the only variety I can get here is Heinz, mostly desserts, and the only chicken variant was mostly sweetcorn and carrot. Not ideal, I felt.

What I did buy was a tin of wet cat food, (9 Lives brand) Meaty Pate style so not chunky, with real Turkey Giblets. It includes meat by-products, turkey gizzards, chicken and bone meal, but less carbohydrate than the baby food, and it has some vitamins which the baby food did not have: Vitamins A, D3, B12, E, also Thiamine, Biotin, Riboflavin, Niacin, Folic Acid, Taurine, and a variety of minerals.

I crushed up 1 teaspoon of this, made a slurry with 4 teaspoons of water, and got most except the larger pieces into him using a soft disposable pipette. (I have done this before with non-feeding neonates, so that's not a problem for me, although he doesn't like it much....) I can get this down his throat and deliver 2 - 3 mls at a time, so it took several loads to get it all into him. If this seems to work I'll get hold of a syringe and tubing to deliver it in one go. Once (if) the Nutri-bac arrives I'll be more willing to force feed him chicken portion and trust to his own digestive system anyway.

How often would you tube feed? It was a very small amount, not what he would normally eat. He normally feeds every 2 weeks, but he's quite weak and lethargic right now, so I want to get nutrition into him, but not overload his digestive system.

Re Vit A toxicity - there's no actual information about the amount on the cat food label. Does anyone know what level is a problem, or should it be avoided altogether?

Thanks again, in advance.

 

[hotlips]

All my kids have "tails" too, so just like you, baby food wasn't routine, but I've used it for snakes for so long now (3 decades+)- actually the second snake I ever had was sickly so I had to learn fast...the vet (not experienced with snakes either) gave me a very brief instruction sheet & that was about it, lol.

You can probably google the amount of beta-carotene in Rep-Cal "Herptivite" and also the RDA (recommended daily allowance) of Vit A for cats (I'm not a cat person) and compare the amount likely to be in the cat food to what they put in Herptivite or Reptivite (a different brand). I only mentioned Vit A toxicity because the Herptivite
information did.

If he tolerates (digests) this meal, I'd do it again in a week, since this was a small amount...and assuming he doesn't seem any the worse for it. I hope the cat food works...cat food is very high in fat, which might be a digestive challenge? You're in
uncharted territory. How often I'd tube-feed depends on the individual situation.
I once had to tube-feed a baby speckled rattlesnake (Crotalus mitchellii) which is a
snake that eats lizards first, only later graduating to rodents in the wild; he resisted
fuzzy mice so I finally tube-fed him a few times, once a month, just enough to keep
him going but I also wanted him hungry. He finally decided mice were yummy. In
your case & from what you've described, I'd guess maybe feed this one about every 2 weeks (normal interval), & keep in mind you won't be feeding an amount equal to his regular meal, it will be smaller. Don't push it...especially see how he does with the
first cat food too. I've heard of ppl tube-feeding raw eggs, by the way...that might even be preferable to cat food? Your call. I'm wondering if the lethargy you are seeing isn't because of the lack of food but because his breathing is a challenge? That's another reason not to push the feeding too much. Hoping for the best...

 

[Helenthereef]

Thanks Caro, I've used raw egg in the past and that would have been my go-to here, but thought I'd try more complete foods first. Also as far as I know he's drinking, but it didn't seem a bad idea to get some hydration into him at the same time.

So, the experiment continues, I'll update as/ when there are any changes.

 

[Helenthereef]

Coccidia?

He passed a large chunk of urate last week (no faeces), and I took it to the vet for examination. They think they see coccidia protozoan organisms in there.

Anyone had any experience with coccidiosis? I thought it a gastrointestinal problem, but my vet thinks it might cause lung inflammation too. Could it be something he has had as a low level systemic infection which did not cause the lung problem but is now delaying recovery?

The vet has Bactrovet Trimethoprim sulfa, which is given orally at 30 mg/ kg every 2 days. This cannot be given to animals with renal problems or severe dehydration. I assume that as Samael still seems to be drinking and passes urates every 2 weeks or so, that his kidneys are OK.

He is only eating voluntarily occasionally and irregularly, and is still weak and lethargic, but I have force fed him vitamin supplemented egg, and have some fresh chicks coming on Monday to tempt him with. I've told the vet I'll get some more eggs and vitamins down him this week, and if he starts feeding by himself again when I get the chicks, we might try the Bactrovet.

All opinions helpful, thanks!

 

[Helenthereef]

Nutribac arrived!

Well, the Nutribac probiotics arrived today (ordered 18 January) - I'd almost given up on them, but 6 weeks isn't unheard of (it is a long way, I presume the UPS man was rowing....). Tonight he gets tube fed a beaten egg with Nutribac, and my fingers are crossed he might start eating again.

He's been refusing solid food again (and I've tried a variety), so I tube fed him a home made shake of blended chicken gizzards and egg last week and he spent a very jolly half hour vomiting it up all over me. Lovely. Won't be doing that again.

He did pass a HUGE and very smelly stool, (maybe lubricated by the beaten egg...) so that's hopeful, and that has gone off to the vet for a faecal parasite smear. Still no word from the lab about the sputum culture (only been 6 weeks, not like it's life and death or anything), so I'm not trying any more meds until we have something resembling a firm diagnosis.

I feel so bad for him, he's just weak and lethargic, and my hopes are fading again - but he hasn't seemed to be in respiratory distress now since mid January, and he hasn't lost a great deal more weight, so m-a-y-b-e the RI is gone and now it's just the loss of appetite due to the antibiotics.

Come on Nutribac, do your stuff!

 

[hotlips]

He passed a large chunk of urate last week (no faeces), and I took it to the vet for examination. They think they see coccidia protozoan organisms in there.

Anyone had any experience with coccidiosis? I thought it a gastrointestinal problem, but my vet thinks it might cause lung inflammation too. Could it be something he has had as a low level systemic infection which did not cause the lung problem but is now delaying recovery?

The vet has Bactrovet Trimethoprim sulfa, which is given orally at 30 mg/ kg every 2 days. This cannot be given to animals with renal problems or severe dehydration. I assume that as Samael still seems to be drinking and passes urates every 2 weeks or so, that his kidneys are OK.

He is only eating voluntarily occasionally and irregularly, and is still weak and lethargic, but I have force fed him vitamin supplemented egg, and have some fresh chicks coming on Monday to tempt him with. I've told the vet I'll get some more eggs and vitamins down him this week, and if he starts feeding by himself again when I get the chicks, we might try the Bactrovet.

All opinions helpful, thanks!

Sorry, Helen, I didn't see this post until now. Like you, I associate it with GI issues. I seem to recall that bearded dragons sometimes carry it, but have no experience with coccidia in snakes or otherwise to be of help anyway. Poor snake...

 

[bcr229]

Fingers crossed that he turns around for you.

 

[hotlips]

Well, the Nutribac probiotics arrived today (ordered 18 January) - I'd almost given up on them, but 6 weeks isn't unheard of (it is a long way, I presume the UPS man was rowing....). Tonight he gets tube fed a beaten egg with Nutribac, and my fingers are crossed he might start eating again.

He's been refusing solid food again (and I've tried a variety), so I tube fed him a home made shake of blended chicken gizzards and egg last week and he spent a very jolly half hour vomiting it up all over me. Lovely. Won't be doing that again.

He did pass a HUGE and very smelly stool, (maybe lubricated by the beaten egg...) so that's hopeful, and that has gone off to the vet for a faecal parasite smear. Still no word from the lab about the sputum culture (only been 6 weeks, not like it's life and death or anything), so I'm not trying any more meds until we have something resembling a firm diagnosis.

I feel so bad for him, he's just weak and lethargic, and my hopes are fading again - but he hasn't seemed to be in respiratory distress now since mid January, and he hasn't lost a great deal more weight, so m-a-y-b-e the RI is gone and now it's just the loss of appetite due to the antibiotics.

Come on Nutribac, do your stuff!

Hooray, glad your Nutribac has arrived. Also that you got some icky stool to have tested, I hope that yields some answers. Frustrating that the sputum culture is taking forever. I'd do the same thing, hold off on meds until you know what you're dealing with & that they're actually effective against whatever he has. Sure hoping the Nutribac helps.

 

[Helenthereef]

Thanks both, I'm off to do the eggy thing, hope he doesn't spit up all over me.....

 

[hotlips]

At least snake-barf is better than human-barf...(good luck!)

 

[Helenthereef]

He kept the egg and Nutribac down , now we just have to hope it does some good.

On a side note my other snakes fell on the fresh chicks as though they hadn't been fed in a year, so even if he wouldn't take them, the others benefited...