BRANDON AT REPTIRUS- REALLY BAD GUY.

[kmurphy]

I honestly don't see how Brandon could have missed it.

Thanks Marcia, that's good enough for me. I have to admit I was hoping there was room for doubt.

 

[KelliH]

as far as I'm concerned neather pat or my self should have been brought into this conversation.

Nevin, I am sorry I brought it up! I remembered the person that got the gecko from Pat as Brandon, and it turns out I was mistaken (my memory is certainly not what it used to be) and it was you. I feel bad about jumping the gun and am sorry you got brought into the thread. I think that emotions are running high in some of us here, including myself, and, in my case at least, a little more tact is needed in these situations sometimes.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Since it looks like I may not post any answers here? Have you read what I have been posting? any answer to any question you got in that PM, have already been answered here. This is getting pretty ridiculous now. I write my own responses, I dont have anyone write them for me. I am leaving now for work so I will not even get to read any of this until 5AM, so do me a favor and dont give me 27 more pages to come home to....

I'll do you a BIGGER favor, Brandon. I'll continue taking care of this little gecko for you until she is ready to get shipped back! Don't you DARE jump on my back.

Don't give you 27 more pages to come home to? Or else what??? There's one way to insure that won't happen, and that is to answer the questions. I have asked you to answer some very straight-forward and simple questions that I feel I have every friggin' right to know the real answers for!!! Just answer them without the holier-than-thou attitude.

Here are the questions once again, with my paraphrased 'answers' you claim to have given:

1. This gecko in my temporary care, had a broken pelvis at some point that has since healed. When and how did it happen?
[Brandon's answer] what broken pelvis?[/Brandon's answer]

2. As stated in this thread, this female has an obvious physical defect... the result of a traumatic past injury. Why was it immediately noticed by the 'newbie' that bought her and took her out of the box, and escaped notice by the 'breeder(s)' that sold and her?
[Brandon's answer] what broken pelvis? [/Brandon's answer]

3. If it was noticed, why wasn't it disclosed prior to selling her?
[Brandon's answer] what broken pelvis? [/Brandon's answer]

4. I have had a few PM's and emails from people who would love to adopt this beautiful, gentle little gecko. What is to become of her when Brandon gets her back?
[Brandon's answer] what broken pelvis? [/Brandon's answer]

 

[ravensgait]

OK I'll fess up,, I did it !! I broke the little lizard!! It was just so cute and I hugged it way to hard and well the rest is history.


This started off as someone getting way to carried away and coming to the BOI before she gave the seller a chance to make it right.. Then we had the page after page of I want a refund of this amount. Now folks here have dragged in the breeder and someone else who had a hurt lizard, who next??

Now I will say that IF the lump looked the same as it did when the buyer received it before the Gecko was shipped then yeah I think most would have noticed it. But then who's to say it didn't get banged around some in shipping and swell some yada yada yada. We can all say that Brandon is a Bad guy or the OP is a bad girl or both if ya wish. Maybe he knew maybe he didn't notice it heck I'm sure we've all missed things in our lives at one time or another. Didn't someone say something about selling an animal with a few missing toes! I think I would notice the toes were gone before a bump.The thing is that even if he knew and was trying to pull a fast one he got caught and if this was the case I bet he's learned his lesson.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the OP has received her refund and both critters are alive and well. Now I can't imagine that anyone who has already said "I Didn't Notice the Injury!" is going to change their story now.

I bet Brandon is really regretting this whole thing and I also bet he wishes he'd have had them shipped straight back to him. Marcia I do have to wonder though if he knew that the injury happened in his care or at least before he shipped, seems strange to me that he would have let you take them when we all know that you'll speak your mind here. Which makes me wonder if he knew of the injury and or it's extent..

Hey Brandon I'll take them off your hands and I promise not to hug them to tight........Randy

 

[KelliH]

Marcia, you're awesome for caring enough about that gecko to help out. I only wish I could care even one tenth as much as you do.

Signed,
Your #1 Minion

Brandon, the gecko did not break it's pelvis by being bounced around in the deli cup. It is an old, long ago healed injury. The "defect" could clearly be seen by those experienced in the photograph of the gecko that you took before Brittney ever bought it. The gecko had the problem before it was shipped. You NOT noticing it is in a way worse than if you knew about it and sold it without telling the buyer.

 

[critical bill]

Brandon, let me give you a solid piece of advice. Simply accept and state that there is a reasonably fair possibility that this injury could have occurred in your care and went unnoticed. It is not a crime to be so busy that you could overlook something quite obvious...that another person with more time could easily identify. It is not a crime to have soo many geckos that you cant examine and inspect each and everyone for developing lumps or bumps. No one here is accusing you of harming the animal intentionally. No one here wants to rake you over the coals because it went unidentified in your care. You are not being investigated or being charged with gecko abuse. This is all about acceptance and accountability. Accept that it is more likely to have happened with you than with Pat, and to stand accountable to do whats right for the future of the animal and your customer satisfaction.

Don't do what I suggest and continue denying it and you'll be leaving it to everyones imagination to imagine what actually could have happened. Ok? No pissing and moaning when what I'm saying comes true because I'm right about this, and I've been around here long enough to know it wont just be limited to this forum, but it will follow you around where ever you go.

Put this to rest with some accountability. One little sentence clears this up for you. "I don't recall the gecko getting injured in my care but, its possible it could have happened in my care and I stand accountable".

Good luck to you fella and stop having sex with your geckos. You're lucky you didn't kill her. Just kidding....but see what I mean about imaginations? Uh-hum..precisely.

 

[snake5007]

Marcia, do you think a vet would be able to tell if the gecko had veterinary care for the fracture or not? If there's a way to tell if it healed on it's own or not it'll indicate if someone's being dishonest. For example: if she was cared for by a vet, then it implies that Brandon knew about it and got her treatment.

 

[moyers monsters]

steph, ill alpologyze to you right now, because i thought that you were the one that pulled my name into it. but i missread the name

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Marcia, do you think a vet would be able to tell if the gecko had veterinary care for the fracture or not? If there's a way to tell if it healed on it's own or not it'll indicate if someone's being dishonest. For example: if she was cared for by a vet, then it implies that Brandon knew about it and got her treatment.

Perhaps, but I doubt it. In most cases where there are bone fractures, there really isn't much that can be done and they either heal on their own or they don't. At least this gecko's injury healed, and she is a very pretty, sweet thing.

I only want what's best for the geckos, and think it's time for me to just back away from this and stop being a CSI. A little gecko in my temporary care is worth more than the emotional drain this situation and thread has had on me. I really don't want to be dogging Brandon anymore because I really think it is pointless.

Both geckos are doing just fine, both eating well, and as soon as Brandon and I work out the shipping arrangements I will be sending them on their way next week (if the weather cooperates).

 

[bleeding_sarcasm]

Also, on the issue of refund, I think the seller has proven himself trustworthy, in the fact that he already shipped an animal when payment was received, so he obviously holds up his end. I totally understand not wanting to issue a refund before the gecko is received back [I probably wouldnt do the same thing, customer satisfaction is number 1 IMO, and I would refund before the gecko was shipped back] BUT the buyer made it clear that she wanted to keep the gecko and get refunded for it, so who is to say that once he sends her a refund, she will ship it back? You cant expect to just keep a free gecko, pet quality or not. either you get a discount and you keep it, or you get a refund and ship it back. Refund for full purchase price [not including shipping] for the animal is like... beyond good on Brandon's part, especially when he has had to go through the hell that is having a BOI thread thrown up about him before having a chance to rectify the situation. The vet bill, IMO, is irrelevant, I think you could have gotten the same broad, generalized diagnosis of "genetic, broken, or MBD" if you posted pictures in a forum of Leopard gecko people, and kept your money. You said yourself that the gecko was "otherwise healthy" and vet visits are a part of the responsibility that comes with owning a pet, so if you keep her, then that responsibility falls on you anyway.

I cant find the link currently, but uploaded on my computer at home I have a PDF for the DHL "live animal waiver" that you have to fill out and turn in, or fax in with your shipments. They do allow live harmless reptiles [might be as specific as lizards, I havent used DHL in a while] and I *think* they offer up to a $150 refund on animals. I have legitimately shipped through them in the past, and can vouch that they do offer that service.

And if you are looking to get rid of them, I will be more then happy to take them off you Who cant use a mack snow bell male? hahah.

 

[LadyGecko]

Yes-vet visits are most certainly the responsibility of any pet owner but other than a routine fecal being done after receiving the animal -are we as buyers expected to pay for any unrecognized past problems that occurred while in the sellers care such as in this case when being sold an animal that was represented as healthy and part of a breeding pair?

I also do not remember reading anywhere that Brittney requested a full refund for both animals and also be allowed to keep both of them
I believe that she requested that the female be discounted to a "Pet Only" price and if she was indecisive on exactly what she wanted to do-well-don't you think that the condition that the female arrived in and the vet report might have just throw her for a loop?
I would have been extremely confused and dismayed by the whole thing

Maybe I'm way off base here but to me-if you are selling an animal-you are putting your name and your reputation on that animal

Yes-things can get by people that are in a hurry but from the sound of the severity of the injury that this gecko has sustained -would it be acting normally until the injury had healed?
I find it hard to believe that this gecko would be walking around normally with a fractured pelvis not to mention the report from the vet stating that -
and I quote from Brittney's post

On the x-ray she said her bone density was so low, that you can't even decide between a fracture and MBD... the bones were almost see through.



Also-why would you not want to do a complete inspection of the animal before it was placed into a shipping box or if you are not the person doing the actual packing of the animal-trust that the person would be doing that for you?

From what I have read here-neither the seller nor the person that packed these geckos noticed anything wrong with the female and that is hard for me to believe

Touching on the comment made that no ones expects the seller to completely inspect every gecko that they have because they simply do not have the time to do so

Is that really such an unreasonable thing to do-or to at least observe your animals for a few minutes when feeding and cleaning tubs?
If something gets by you the first time-then surely if you are in the tubs at least once per week then you might notice a serious problem the next time

It just doesn't add up

As for the seller being trustworthy-yeah he shipped the animals out after being paid-but look what he shipped and he continues to deny that there was an existing problem while he had the gecko?
Was that right and trustworthy?


I'm sorry but the sellers attitude and responses so far have me seeing red and this is not the type of person that I would ever think of purchasing from

I do not believe that just because the seller says that he saw nothing wrong with the gecko that this should just be laid to rest with an "Oh Well-stuff happens" attitude

again-just my 2 cents

Sandy

 

[LakesideBoas]

I ave to agree...

With your reasoning here as I have 60 geckos (adults and hatchlings), 11 spiders, 10 snakes, a Frilly, a cat, a dog, a husband and three kids plus a grandkid--Whew!

I can verify that I would know of any 'cootie' or injury to my collection within a day of it happening.

Every time you clean, feed or water your pets it gives you the opportunity to examine that animal, even if just in a cursory way. Something like a broken pelvis would at least have effected the animal's demeanor, if nothing else. I would imagine moving would be excruciatingly painful. If an animal seems reluctant to move it pretty much tells you there is something wrong either physically or environmentally.

Animals can't talk, so it is up to an observant caretaker to interpret what they are trying to tell us in regards to their care, and they tell us things all the time, if we pay attention.

I do have to mention again, though, as I hate to see someone vilified for no reason. Stephanie did NOT pack the Geckos. Brandon was packing them when she arrived to pick them up to ship. All Stephanie did was pick up their containers, look at them (like most people would do while waiting) and then after Brandon had finished packing them she took them to her house, put a heat pack in the box and collected the rest of the packages she had to ship that day.

If you, Brandon, did not notice the injury to the gecko while it was in your care (even if it happened before you bought it, I'm not getting into that debate) I would think this is a good reminder to really look and pay attention while you interact with your charges on a daily basis. Things such as that should not escape our notice as caretakers.

 

[moyers monsters]

i compleatly agree with you 2. it my biggest collection point, ive had over 300 animals. i knew everysingle inch of eveysingle one of them. i did 2 checks everyday. i also work 60-70 hours a week. and i have a girlfriend<<<as if a girlfriend isnt enough. but on the other hand, if you dont take care of the animals your self, and have someone else doing the cleaning, and feeding and so on.

 

[LadyGecko]

I'm sorry and I would like to apologize to Stephanie for implying that she packed the geckos and that she had commented that she saw nothing wrong with them
I obviously mis-read that part

Sandy

 

[LauraB]

Also, on the issue of refund, I think the seller has proven himself trustworthy, in the fact that he already shipped an animal when payment was received, so he obviously holds up his end.

The seller represented a healthy breedable female gecko. He shipped a badly deformed, unbreedable female, which was immediately verified by a vet visit and X-rays. The seller refuses to admit that she may have suffered an old injury that simply went unnoticed while in his care. The seller used a 2nd party to actually ship the animal with an obvious deformity. The shipper also did not notice what, unbelievably, is so apparent in photos posted by the seller himself. The seller claimed he could no longer use her in his breeding progam so was letting her go. Of course he was letting her go! She's deformed and possibly suffering early MBD! Trustworthy?

If it's actually possible he did not notice her injury in his care, then he is either incompetent or just too busy with other responsibilities to properly care for his collection. Either way, not good for running a business, building a happy customer base and certainly not good for the animals in his care.
He did refund her money ... the only decent thing to do and he's a better man for doing so.

The vet bill, IMO, is irrelevant, I think you could have gotten the same broad, generalized diagnosis of "genetic, broken, or MBD" if you posted pictures in a forum of Leopard gecko people, and kept your money.

Uh, if you go back to post #3, you will see Brandon requested a copy of the vet report. He also requested the name and phone number of Brittney's vet so he could talk to them. You are correct, however, regarding one thing. That deformity is so obvious that even a forum of Leopard Gecko people would provide the same diagnosis. Ironic how the seller, a Gecko breeder, didn't notice, eh?
Do you think Brandon would have happily provided a full refund on the basis of reptile forum "diagnosis"? Or do you think an actual vet diagnosis in a very timely manner carries a bit more weight when a buyer has a complaint and desires a refund?

And yes, vet visits are part of animal ownership. However, when a seller represents a healthy animal and ships an obviously outwardly unhealthy animal, then an immediate vet visit is necessary to affirm pre-existing illness/injury/congenital deformity. When that vet visit falls within 24 hours of receipt of the animal, and a pre-existing issue is identified then it absolutely should not be the responsiblity of the buyer.

I must have missed something, but I sure don't understand what DHL has to do with this issue.


~ Laura Bolt

 

[LauraB]

Thanks for the clarification, Maggie. I also must have misunderstood Stephanie's small role in shipping.

~Laura Bolt

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I'm sorry and I would like to apologize to Stephanie for implying that she packed the geckos and that she had commented that she saw nothing wrong with them
I obviously mis-read that part

Sandy

No, you didn't get that part wrong.

 

[critical bill]

Touching on the comment made that no ones expects the seller to completely inspect every gecko that they have because they simply do not have the time to do so

Is that really such an unreasonable thing to do-or to at least observe your animals for a few minutes when feeding and cleaning tubs?
If something gets by you the first time-then surely if you are in the tubs at least once per week then you might notice a serious problem the next time

It just doesn't add up

The point of my stating that was so that he doesn't feel as though he has done something so wrong and is going to crucified because of it. That may have a large part in his denial and inability to accept even the remote possibility that the injury occurred and went unnoticed in his care. If he can accept that possibility without the fear of any reprisal it might just occur to him naturally that he needs to spend more time with his geckos.

Yeah, but I'm with you in that thought process. If he has time to bowl in a league once a week then he should certainly have the time to spend with his geckos to assure they are all in good health. But that also may be a sacrifice he is to young to yet fully understand or even willing to make.

 

[LauraB]

Chuck, only 6 days passed between the time Brittney received the geckos and turned them over to Marcia. Marcia then posted "I did a pretty comprehensive inspection on both geckos. The female gecko has a very obvious pelvic deformity, a broken toe, and classic symptoms of hypo-calcemia (pre-MBD) as demonstrated by her shaking limbs when she walks."

Okay, so perhaps the broken toe occurred during shipping. The pelvic deformity is certainly pre-existing. Perhaps (just perhaps) the gecko did not manifest any outward symptoms of hypo-calcemia prior to shipping. Let's say perhaps shipping did exacerbate the ill effects of long-term calcium deprivation. I certainly don't think Marcia's observations are open to question and I don't think you question Marcia's observations either.

What remains are the facts that this gecko suffered not only a pelvic fracture or deformity in Brandon's care (which may or may not have gone untreated and unnoticed), but also possibly insufficient husbandry, resulting in MBD. Again, not something that suddenly appears in only 6 days.

I don't wish to see Brandon crucified, but all things considered, it appears to me, at least, not just a case of "oops, I didn't notice". For the gecko's sake I hope I'm wrong.

That said, I will admit that the geckos pictured on Brandon's site are beautiful, healthy looking specimens.

~ Laura Bolt

 

[critical bill]

I don't wish to see Brandon crucified, but all things considered, it appears to me, at least, not just a case of "oops, I didn't notice". For the gecko's sake I hope I'm wrong.

I think your missing the point of my post also. I'll break it down. I have two young children. When they do something wrong, they get a time out in the corner. Five minutes in the corner is like hell to the both of them. So they learned a new trick, they lie and point the finger at the other. It is only until I tell them that they will not be put in the corner do they decide to come clean and tell me the truth. Then I must hold true to my word and give them a pass and hope they see the error of their ways. Teaching and patience and understanding is real pain in the ass, but its necessary to help correct bad behavior and bad situations from reoccurring.

I think Brandon might feel like his ass is grass if he accepts responsibility and holds himself accountable for the injured gecko. This situation can have a negative impact on his gecko breeding business. I'm hoping if we ease up a bit on him and assure him that he isn't in for any type of ordeal if he accepts responsibility that he will learn from this experience and perhaps learn from it and become a better keeper.

In essence I am handling Brandon with kid gloves. For now.