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Briarpatch herps??????? AGAIN

Jerry, I will have to confess to you that I don't know squat about ball python morphs, or dumerl's morphs either. My background was zoo work, where we never really dealt in odd animals, and now a pet store, where I really don't carry anything like what is being debated here. This is why I have not gotten involved in any of the talk about morphs, and who has what, or who sent who what photos etc. My only point to this whole thing is that I have done many trades with Bill, I have never been anything but pleased with what he has sent me, and I have found him to be a very honest person to work with. Bill asked me once if I was interested in ball morphs, and I told him no, and we have never talked about it again. He knows what I'm after, and that's what we deal with now. Am I defending his ads, or the validity of his morphs, no. You guys might as well be debating auto parts as far as I'm concerned. I just posted what I ment, I like Bill, he has never ripped me off, I have made a good profit on every deal he and I have been involved in, and that's about it. Without trying to open a new can of worms, I have a question. Not that it would change my way of doing things, but has anyone posted anything on here about getting ripped off by Mr. Horn? Or is it that you are just not fond of the way he describes his animals? If it is a valid concern (I am not one to judge if it is or now, see above statements), then perhaps you and Bill could get together on the phone and you can suggest a better way for him to advertise his stock.

As to why I'm being attacked just because I happen to like Bill and I enjoy doing business with him is beyond me. How and who I do business with should not be an issue at all. As far as leftovers go, as long as they are healthy, feeding, and not all scared up, I don't care where the leftovers come from. I run a business, and I look for honesty, reliablilty, quality, and price. This is how I operate my business, and this is what I expect from people I do business with. I get all this from Mr. Horn, and that's all that counts to me.

I will do business with ANYONE (yep, even Tom) if they meet my requirments. I'm sorry this is so long. Take care
 
Tim, I'm sorry, I called you Tom. And I would still do business with you. Hey, business is business lol. Take care
 
I respect that last post Ken.

but has anyone posted anything on here about getting ripped off by Mr. Horn?

he may not have sent people dead or sick animals, but he could have sent them misrepresented animals, which is bad but not the worse thing. I dont know if this has happened, but it could have occured with him giving animals fake morph names on the classified adds.
 
Briarpatch

Ken,

Thank goodness you didn't answer Briars question YES about his offer of ball morphs.

I'm sure after reading this thread you have learned alot about morphs, and the people who care about this industry. People who invest alot of time and money into their snakes don't appreciate a con man trying to mooch in on their efforts by putting morph labels on there wild caught animals. And for me, I don't like the attempt of screwing me out of an expensive burm for some misrepresented imported baby ball pythons.

Other than that,,,, I'm just a happy go lucky guy and I wish you much luck with your new business. As for Patches I wish he would find a new line of work. I'm sure his calling has to be in politics.:)
 
Just a quick note, this is by no means a new business to me. I've been in the herp business in one form or another for going on 30 years, ie: I'm old. I promise you I have dealt with the worst in this business, and the best also Thankfully, I have dealt mostly with the best As far as learning anything about ball python morphs, it's not that I'm uneducated, I'm just uninterested. Not my field at all. I just would like all of you all to resolve this issue, it seems that there are a lot of large fish to fry in our industry lately, and I don't think Bill is one of them, unless there is someone out there that has actually been ripped off by him. I posted a box turtle on ks yesterday, and got 3 emails telling me that the turtle I posted was not a three toe, but an ornate. I looked up the ad, and low and behold, I had posted the wrong photo with the ad. I now hope I don't get a bad guy post for mixing up the photos, but who knows?
 
This is the message:

Interested in trades of CH ball python varients and morphs?

There are some ads posted that I ran today with fresh photos, after checking
out the animal quality let me know what it is exactly you're after.

Greens, green granites, orange, yellow, pastels, labyrinths, reduced
patterns ect ect ect

Wm
Click to expand...

THAT is supposedly a fraudulent email?

See the first line where it says "CH ball python"?

Again... An axanthic is an axanthic proven genetic or not. The term has a meaning above and beyond that applied to a specific genotype. "Pastel" or "Labyrinth" do not, but the animals were clearly stated to be CH which automatically means "Looks like it might be a..."

he may not have sent people dead or sick animals, but he could have sent them misrepresented animals
Click to expand...

But HAS THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED?

Just to give an example of clear cut misrepresentation... Gubitz sold a boa that was supposed to be four feet, female and orange. It was three feet, male and orange- the animal was actually sent out and money was accepted, this makes it misrepresentation. Jesse Underhill sold all sorts of morphed ball pythons that he supposedly bred, but sent his customers totally normal animals with no phenotypical variations whatsoever and phone books so the UPS box would have weight. That is misrepresentation.

If Briarpatch were stating that he produced these animals and that they were proven CB morphs, it'd be different. I haven't seen anyone give an example yet where he hasn't been explicit about the origin of the animals in question.

I don't like his wording, I think that it would avoid confusion if he were to simply use an "abberent" label and a photograph for any animals resembling those morphs which do not have a specific term directly related to pigment production (If he has a ball with no yellow, it's an axanthic, period. If he has a ball with faded pinkish areas it may or may not be a pastel.) but... He's not selling them as proven morphs, he's not omitting the fact that they're captive hatched, he's not being dishonest, he hasn't ripped anyone off.

William (Bill?), I think you can understand why people dislike the terms which have been used even though there are disclaimers all over the place in your communications surrounding the animals. Not using some of them in the future might avoid a lot of complications.

All of his detractors... Until you can produce someone who was actually sent an animal (or email) and was directly lied to and told it was a proven gentic morph when the animal sent was captive hatched, there really is no argument for misrepresentation.
 
Will do you own one or a pair of pastel balls from a proven line, genetic line???? Im not talking unproven imports, Im asking about the real deal. A simple yes or no and if yes clarifacation on whether you own one or a pair would be fine. Thank you
 
Guys and Gals

I didnt read everything here but I have one thing to say......
I am in Miami where most of your precious ball pythons come into.
I go through almost everyones shipments I can.
I also buy sealed boxes from some of the importers.
I go through these boxes and pull out Yellowbellies, fire balls, goblins, labyrinths, granites(true with the light heads, spot on stripe behind head) reduced patterneds, reverse pieds(dont ask, your not in the loop, lol) , and tons of "different" looking babies.
Well I can tell you the gods you worship in the ball python world are the ones buying them all up.
If it has two spots on the head and green eyes, gets sold.
With all the new co-dom mutations, etc that looked like they never had a chance and tons have been proved out, these big breeders you guys worship buy most of them. This year I have been "out of the loop" so I havent been really into ball pythons with all the boas Im selling but last year I can tell you I sold over 5,000.00 worth of ball pythons. mOST WERE PRICED BETWEEN 100-350 WITH A FEW about 500 or so.
These were all sold to your "big breeders" that are very well known , and recieved by them. They would email me back, call, etc, asking if I could get them more similar ones.
I did, and they bought those as well.
And yes every single ball pythons I sold to these guys was bought between $4.50 and $25.00 BY ME and solfd to them for hundreds.
So to make my point, every literally little thing that when placed with normals looks "kind of " AND READ THAT WELLL.....KIND OF...different .gets bought up. I have had about 10 this year I sold and not one was posted on kingsnake.
Sold them all to "big breeders" not people that dont have a clue, or barely breed snakes, I sold them to people who you all look up to.\
All ten were granties which sold for 250.00ea, and to let you now I paid 6.50 for them.
So please do not go around saying how can someone sell a 7 dollar abberant, different, ball python and sell it for thousands? hundreds? if they do so they are scamming and trying to make a buck
Your damn right some of us are trying to make a buck, thats the point isnt it? Scamming? Why do these big people keep comign back all the time wanting to purchase more>?
What you see on kingsnake is pretty much this: the normals that people ASSUME are different but arent.
I can post a granite on kingsnake for 100.00 bucks.
Ill get tons of emails saying how can i sell a different normal for 100.00? your tryin to scam people, etc,
I get this all teh time.
Yet the people that buy it, are yor big name breeders.
This is a funny story.....
I sold a reduced patterned animal to one fo theses breeders for 350.00 dollars. It was probably only about 30-40% reduced.
I then saw it posted on kingsnake a month later as a C.H. import non proven line for $1,500.00
It sold right away when I asked about why it was bieng sold.
Yet he bought it off an ad on kingsnake I had for 350.00
I had probably about fifteen emails saying it looked normal, it was normal, how can i scam people trying to sell it so high...yet when it was posted, everyone in the forumks was like wow! look at that! I cant wait till I have one like that!! etc, etc ,etc

all because it was posted by a big name breeder.

Remember these people get 90% of their animals from people like me. the other 10% is the thirty fory thousand dollar stuff they get from africa, usually brokered by people like me.

So next time we all go saying , its normal, its only slightly different, how can you compare it, remember, the big breeders are all over them......always have been, always will be.

Also remember I live in the middle of this, there are deals going on everyday that you guys have no clue about involving "normals".
 
So you sold over $5,000 worth

of Ball Pythons, priced between $100 and $500......that would mean you sold like 10-25 snakes, maybe 30 or so if you sold them at $150?????? $500 x 10 still = $5,000 right? With all your "boasting", $5K is small beans man. I am really not sure what your point is, except you buy some Balls for $5, and sell them for $500 to the big breeders. OK, so. $500-$5 = $495, a nice profit, but in the Ball world, not mindblowing. You talk about Granites, and I really think they are kind of in the "grey" area.....not sure how many are proven, if any, but if someone sells a Ball as a Granite, I am not going to go off the deep end about it. Granite is kind of descriptive, which I guess Hypo is too, but a Hypo Ball, if sold as a Hypo, should be genetic. Granites, I guess you take your chances, and you buy it because you like the way IT looks, even though the genes may not pass on. I am one that feels Briar is misleading when selling CH balls as morphs. I guess we will all agree to disagree. By the way, if your ch "morphs" are so sought after, why not sell them for real money, in the $several thousand$ range? Have you heard of many proving out?
 
Great piont David. I don't even see the comparison that MnR is trying to make, selling imports as odd/non proven for a couple hundred, VS. William trying to pawn of normals as pastels and a spider. Not the same in my eyes, but nothing I will touch anyway.

Still no pastels huh Briar? I just hatched out some REAL pastels if your interested.
 
M n R I may almost be inclined to agree with you but there is one point you made that shot you whole post to crap

I have had about 10 this year I sold and not one was posted on kingsnake. Sold them all to "big breeders"not people that dont have a clue ,
or barely breed snakes, I sold them to people who you all look up to.\
Click to expand...
UNlike you he is directly targetting many people who dont have a clue with his nothing special high yellow ball i.e. his pastels for $2300. I seen the pics nothing special about them. Now how many of these $150 animals you sell to the big have been shot down? I am sure that for everyone you sell at a high rate there is one that they say "na Ill pass on that one but will take the next one" or " I dont see that one worth $500 but will give ya $75 for it" correct?

Also the other thing you forgot to mention in there was the dumerils he tried to attach the hypo label to. How do you explain that. I currently have in my possesion 2 of only 3 known Dumeril's morphs within the world. The other is in Germany and is labeled as a hypo although some of us agree its actaully a T+albino. Anyway Im not trying to jump on you and may actually somewhat agree had his balls actually been something differant. The ones I seen were nothing. And the dumerils he tried to attach the hypo label was nothing special as well. We all know that in the ball pythons everyone has some silly name for everything. Thats not the case in the Dumerils and trying to attach hypo labels to normal dumerils doesnt fly with me. Consider the dumerils is were my opinion of this hinges. Had it not been for his atempt to attach that label I probally wouldnt have gotten involved however since it did that. IMO it was nothing more then a cheaps sales tactic Directed at the people you said "dont have a clue" in an atempt to take advatage no differant then the normal balls in the pics with the pastel label and so called spiders.




Will do you own one or a pair of pastel balls from a proven line, genetic line???? Im not talking unproven imports, Im asking about the real deal. A simple yes or no and if yes clarifacation on whether you own one or a pair would be fine. Thank youOh and one more for ya. If yes when did you obtain the animals.

Has anyone noticed Will on in the last 24hrs? Is is computer broken down or has he been here and for what ever reason cant answer a couple of simple questions about some pastels?
 
We all know that in the ball pythons everyone has some silly name for everything.
Click to expand...

Not entirely true Jason, I NEVER label ANY of my balls something they are not.

Will do you own one or a pair of pastel balls
Click to expand...
Great question, I have been asking this for over a week now.
 
Not entirely true Jason, I NEVER label ANY of my balls something they are not.
Click to expand...
Your right I apoligize that was kind of a broad statement. I think you know what I mean though theres just way to many people giving normal ball pythons silly names because of perfectly normal reproducable traits like a black dot or a black band. Humm I wonder if I could sell balls for high dollars that have brown in them??? I could garentee them as 100% hets to produce babies with brown on them. Hey I wouldnt be lying. ahhh hell with my luck Id sell some as 100% het for brown thed throw full litters of albinos or something that had no brown and Id get sued because they didnt produce normals LOL
 
No, No , No, No. I am not trying to defend Briarpatch or whomever at all.

I was seeing a negative generalization towards EVERYONE that posts on the classifieds of their "special" ball pythons so I had to step in and let you guys know some REAL facts of which I posted earlier.

David,
I do not have sought after morphs. I have sought after POSSIBLE future Morphs. The only reason they buy these kinds of animals because fo the possibilities. They do not want pastels, ghosts, etc.
Its all bread and butter to them. They want the enxt thing which can comeout of anywhere. Look at Cinnamon Pastels, I sold three two years ago before it was proven out for 125.00ea as nice blushing sided balls w/light heads.
125.00EA! What are they worth now? 7k?10k>?more?after
I sold TRUE granites of which are very obvious once youve seen lots and lots of them, the genetic ones have cerain traits, locality granited ones dont.
The long orangy light head marking, the clear belly, the more than one scale black granites, etc, etc, etc, the one dot on the neck stripe,
I sold some to someone who sold them to Rick Elvin that proved his line.
I sold a reduced patterned to someone who sold it to ralph davis which is in his collections page and I think has some genetic stuff to it?

The whole point I was trying to say is dont generalize dealers and breeders who sell the "bottom feeder" stuff as the "top feeders" are all over it.

Reason I dont sell for thousands is what for? Why are poss hets so cheap? cause it is a possibility. That is why the possible pattern mutations, color mutations, are sold cheaper. the funkier it is the more expensive. Unless it is totally outrageous, or a proven morph then the price remains low , and it should be.

Also if it is a pastel from africa, who erally has to prove it?
A pastel is a pastel......im not talking about briarpatch here ok?
A pastel is a pastel.
A cinnamon pastel is a cinnamon pastel.
An albino is an albino
a pied is a pied
A genetic stripe is a genetic stripe
if you go to africa and pick one up, come here bred it, you guys are saying you cant sell the hets as 100% hets?
thats ridiculous. if it ilooks like what it is, i s what it is, it is.

What I agree on is if it is a yellowbelly, that looks like one, but is missing a "damn, thats one for sure thing" then that should be proven out before bieng sold or traded for pieds by anyone.
 
Briarpatch

Mike,

" No , No, No. I am not trying to defend Briarpatch or whomever at all." This is good!


"That is why the possible pattern mutations, color mutations, are sold cheaper. the funkier it is the more expensive. Unless it is totally outrageous, or a proven morph then the price remains low , and it should be."

I agree Mike.

If you have a couple hours with nothing to do you can read this thread and see what our problem is with Briar...In case you don't have that much free time, I'll cut to the chase...
Briar offers trade values of thousands on normal ch import baby balls and refers to them with names of proven morphs..........he mixes words to entice people to trade with him. If he would just say, nice not your normal looking fresh import baby balls for trade value of $2200....how about a trade ?..........................................There would be no problem, but he has to use the old mixing word game, refering to them with proven morph names to try to make a trade. I know he's not the only one who practices this. Sad to say, some honest people do it in the name of good business, but all dishonest people do it and Briar it seems is making it general practice.

Mike, thanks for your personal insight into the practices of the big names in this business, I hope it doesn't cost you too much.
Peace.

:)
 
Not my favorite guy on the planet...

Bill,

In the first paragraph or your first post, you said "I have never tried to scam you or anyone on anything and my background proves it." You have 4 heavy duty negative threads here on this site dedicated to you. As far as I am concerned That is your background. Your background proves nothing in your favor, but rather serves to damn you and your credibility. It supports the people that have problems with the way you conduct business.

My experience with Bill Horn was also not favorable. Bill approached me back in March of 2000 wanting to purchase an Argentine Boa and a Colombian Boa that I had for sale. I was selling them for $190.00 + shipping. He asked me for more pics and he asked how much shipping was. I sent him multiple pics, and I told him shipping was $35.00 for a total of $225.00 (It might have been less). He said that was fine and that he would take them. When the check came, it was for $190.00 only and there was no shipping. I was not too concerned. I sent him an e-mail stating that he must have forgotten to ad the shipping, and I cut and pasted the text from the e-mails that applied to the situation. I did not hear back that evening, so I figured everything was just fine. The next morning I went to the bank to cash the check, and it was canceled. When I went home I saw that I had e-mails from him accusing me of trying to pull one over on him and that the Boas were $190.00 shipped. I reminded him of the text that I had sent and then resent the actual e-mails (both his and mine). There was no room for misinterpretation. When he was confronted with his own words, I was sure he would reply with something to the effect of, "Hey man I am sorry, I totally forgot about that." However, that did not happen, and Bill did not seem to care. Instead he seemed to ignore the evidence and his attitude was more of a "screw you" type of attitude. Ironically, last year Bill approached me with interest in trading me some Ball Python morphs for the Amazon Basin Emerald Tree Boas that I had for sale. When I declined his offer, I made mention of the earlier deal, and he made light of it and took his time to mock me saying wise cracks like "poor little Jimmy boy did not get his money." He accused me of trying to pull a scam on him, and continued to taunt me. Bill, my past does speak for itself, and so does yours. It is no wonder that you came to Terry Lilley's defense on one of his many threads.

Have a great day, and REGARDS to you too,

James Wilson
 
Jimmy - You told me "$190.00 Total" and either changed your mind, forgot or made a mistake....why would I have chose to lose money by canceling payment if the deal wasn't screwy? The stop payment fee I was charged would have easily covered shipping but it was the principle of your actions that I based my decision on.

And how does Terry Liley fit in to this in any way? My reply to a Liley post stated nothing but a fact...the one run in I had with the guy went fine, what he offered me and sent me photos of was exactly what I received.

As for taunting? Please man...you INSTANTLY went ballistic that I cancelled payment and your attempted shot at me on this thread from a disagreement four years ago as well as a shot about Terry? supports it. I'm glad to hear good posts about you and that you've improved your behavior, it's the best thing you could have done - congrats.
 
Are you not able to read?

Bill, My name is James. Try to remember that. I do not call you billy boy, so I would expect you not to call me Jimmy, or Jimmy boy. Your attitude is flippant and arrogant. And I do not appreciate it. I sent you the e-mail containing the conversation where you asked me about the shipping, and I sent you the e-mail containing my response. It was clear cut. You made a mistake, and then you compounded your mistake by calling me a crook. Where did you think those e-mails came from. Did I go to your home and e-mail myself a message on your PC agreeing to the terms that I had sent you earlier? Bill, you made an error, and from the looks of some of these threads it was not the only one. I would not be saying this if it did not happen. I tell it like it is. As for Terry, well... do I really need to explain that one to you. Bill, this was all due to a very simple error on your part, but when I sent you the e-mails you said you did not care. You said it was too late anyway and that you had changed your mind Because of my reaction. I will tell you this. If I reacted badly, it was simply because I resent being called a crook. I always try to be honest, and I resented you saying otherwise when it was you had made the error. You had every right to change your mind, and I would reccomend others to buy form you, especially if they like cancled checks and untrue accusations about their charater that are based on your mistakes due to your bad memory. An apology would have made all the difference. Instead you chose to show your true colors. Way to go.

James Wilson
 
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