Bad Guy Buyers Beware of A&J Dragonz (John Logston)!!!!

[CalicoDragons]

Hello my name is Amy Moses and I own and operate CalicoDragons. Ive been breeding and selling dragons for over 10 years now. I recently saw an ad here on Fauna posted by John(A&J Dragonz) and was interested so I contacted him and he seemed very nice and got back to me quickly. Once we got the price figured out and we got into shipping cost I asked for a quote per my zip code and he said he would just charge me a flat rate. I thought Great! And then we setup that I was going to send payment through paypal. He then asked me to send payment as a "gift" so he would avoid the fee's paypal charges to save himself money. I should have known then something wasn't right. I ended up sending it as a regular sale after talking with him explaining that I believe as another business person that uses paypal that the fee's should be handled by the seller since its a service paypal is giving you. He wasn't happy but said fine.
The dragon got shipped and by 10:30am the day it was going to arrive it hadn't yet. I got a bit worried and called up Fedex to find out what happened and he ended up sending at as an "end of day" to save money. Well here in south Florida the trucks are not ac'ed and temp.s average in the 90's and higher in the shade. So one can imagine how hot a truck in the sun can get and then how hot being in that truck and in an enclosed box would be like. I ended up getting Fedex to give it a priority service label after telling them it was a live animal and had the box by 1pm. I opened it to find a very hot dragon with no cold packs what so ever. The poor thing made it but was very lucky. I let him know that it was safe and sound by that it was very hot where I am and to be very careful with other dragons he ships out and to make sure next time he checks temp.s I also informed him that it looked to be a male and I purchased it as a female making sure he had a health and gender guarantee. Which before I sent payment he assured me on. He then said he was very sure it was a female and that I should wait and give it time to be 100% certain it was in fact a male before shipping it back for a replacement. I kept in touch with him almost every day and after another couple past I contacted him letting him know the baby wasn't adjusting very well even for only having it 4 days it wasn't eating but the bare minimum and was stressed all day. I kept it alone and in a bin that it could not see any other dragons. By the time he got back to me about the baby not doing well it had passed away. I let him know and he said he was sorry and asked for pictures. I sent them and he informed me that he would have more females babies in 2 weeks. After going back and forth about the value or of the one I bought to what he was selling them at after I bought mine I decided I would just rather not deal with this anymore and simply asked for a refund. From that message on I have never heard back from him. I text him once a day and called once a day for 4 days and left 2 messages. Never got back to me. So the next business day which was Monday I called up paypal to try and get a refund. Which the claim was setup and paypal e-mailed him about the issue he got back to them within the hour and sent them the tracking information showing he sent the dragon and it was delivered. I called paypal back and found out that since the "product" was shown to be delivered he wasn't responsible for anything and then I was told paypal does not cover live animals. We even tried our credit card company but again they wouldn't cover live animals. So at this point I have no dragon and im out $400. I am posting this so other people know to avoid doing business with someone like this and to save them the hassle I went through. I text him asking him to just talk with me so we could settle this like mature adults but of course no replies back. Don't waste your money or time dealing with this man. I learned the hard way and it cost me $400!
Amy Moses


Here are our text messages.....


Date/time:

Thursday 21st 8:06pm

From Us....

Hey John, I'm still pretty sure it's a male n it still hasn't adjusted yet n only eats the bare minimum

Just stressed all day n that doesn't seem healthy to me for such a small guy

Only eating 1 or 2 crickets a day no greens n I have to put it in the water bowl or it won't drink

Even tried some silkworms n roach nymphs but wasn't interested

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From Him....

Hey there. Yea it prob was stressed but should be getting better. As long as it is eating anything I wouldn't be too worried. And mine never really drink out of the bowls often just when they get baths. They get a lot of water from their greens. Would you mind sending a pic of under the tail?

I'm at work. Get off at 9 and I can call then


from us....

Oh I see well I tried to call earlier to talk n left u a message

The baby died

I knew it looked bad but I wasn't expecting it to pass

from him....

Can you send pictures

from us....

I've only had it a week

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from him....

I'm sorry I will have more females in a couple weeks. I will send another if you pay shipping
I have a couple males that are around 25 grams left. One is not a dunner though

from us...

I wouldn't mind 1 bit paying shipping. N I really need females unless u have n unrelated pair? Then I wouldn't care if 1 wasn't a dunner (so like a female triple het n male triple het with only 1 that's a dunner)


from him....

No I mean I would send one to replace one

from us....


I thought we had that chat about u selling a pair of girls for $400, n I was going to buy them from u that night but u told me to hold off until we knew what gender the baby I had was. Or I would have gotten them that night

from him...

I sold the last pairs as unguaranteed sexes. If you would like a pair of females plus a replacement when they are ready I would do that. I'm sorry I made a lot of sales that week I don't exactly remember


from us....

When we were talking u told me that it was a pair of females. Cuz that's all I was interested in. I would def not have been interested in unsexed babies.

I would like a pair as a replacement since I bought a baby for $400 n it came in as the wrong gender then died on me only after having it a week. That's what I wanted to do when we talked last but u asked me to wait n see if it turned out to b a male or not. I can copy paste all our text chats if u want promise I'm not lying

from him....
I know I sold my last two pairs of babies, one pair I was talking to you about as unguaranteed. I'm letting them get a little bigger now before I guarantee sex anyways. But I have lots more babies coming up

from us....

Ok I think then I would just like a full refund.

Friday 22nd 8:53pm

I will confirm with u when PayPal tells me the refund is complete

Saturday 23rd 10:32am

Hi John,
Did u happen to get my last 2 text messages?

Saturday 5:02pm

Hey John, still haven't heard back from you. I'm sure your busy working but if u could plz get back to me ASAP that would be appreciated. I've tried to call again n left a message. Just waiting for my refund from paypal.

Sunday 24th 12:36pm

Hello John, Still haven't heard from you and I keep trying to call. I'm sorry but if I don't hear from you by tomorrow I'm calling paypal to get my refund the rough way. Plz get back to as I would hate to do that. Thank u Amy Moses

Monday 25th 4:30pm

Hello John,
Well I'm sure by now yo know I setup a claim through paypal and they did tell me you sent the tracking info to them. I don't understand why you are not talking with me about this so we could have settled it before paypal got involved. I bough a dragon from you n then it passed away a week later. I have all our conversations and you guaranteed health and gender and said you were sorry it passed n would replace it. Why won't you just refund our money when you know we should get it back?? I don't understand why your doing this? Please get back to me so we can resolve this like mature people.



(At this point he stopped talking with me......)

 

[bcr229]

Try disputing again with your credit card company using the reason "item not as described" if you were shipped the wrong sex animal.

 

[Lucille]

It was not clear to me what was going on when he said he would have more females in 2 weeks. Was he offering a free replacement?
I looked for his TOS but did not see it, is it LAG only or more?

Did you take the little lizard to the vet?

I think you absolutely did the right thing by deciding not to send your Paypal funds as a 'gift' and he should not have asked.

 

[A&J Dragonz]

I offered to send a replacement. She wanted 2 to replace the 1. After that she said well just give me a full refund but that's not how my guarantees work. Especially on a animal she had over a week then died. The animal was in perfect health when I sent. Also I usually send money as a gift so I wasn't sure what the big deal was there but I understand now. I'm not gonna work with someone who becomes rude and demanding

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I offered to send a replacement. She wanted 2 to replace the 1. After that she said well just give me a full refund but that's not how my guarantees work. Especially on a animal she had over a week then died. The animal was in perfect health when I sent. Also I usually send money as a gift so I wasn't sure what the big deal was there but I understand now. I'm not gonna work with someone who becomes rude and demanding

I was going to reply to this thread in the middle of the night last night. I was tired and wasn't sure if I was reading this thread correctly so I just copied what I was writing to a word processor and thought I take another look today before I posted with fresh eyes.

Here is what I wrote last night.

Amy, I'm sorry you lost the animal. I understand the points you laid out about communication, and ultimately you seeking a refund.

It could be just me but I was lost around one point. Why you were only going to accept 2 for replacing the one you lost? Because he was selling others at a different price?

You purchased a baby for $400 and it died.
He offered to replace it if you paid shipping. He stated it would be a couple of weeks.

** (if it were me and I determined it was my fault I would send the replacement free of charge (including shipping) but I guess that doesn't matter because you stated you didn't care about paying for it)

Anyway,

You agreed on the shipping point but then started talking about wanting a pair instead of one to replace the one that died.

He asked for clarification by stating, Are you going to buy a pair and he will also send you the replacement? 3 in total.

You stated, No. That sometime before he was selling a pair for $400 that you were also going to buy. This is after the fact of your first purchase that was shipped horribly.

You obviously wanted your first purchase at $400 because you made it and you wanted to make the second for $400 after you already had doubts about the sex and problems with the way the first was shipped.

Maybe those texts you alluded to might help make it clearer for me.

Now just going by what you posted here and if it is accurate, I would have refunded your funds right away when you asked. I don't know his terms.

Shipping issues, heath of the dragon and the loss of it in a few days. I believe falls on the seller. If that is all accurate.

I don't think any seller should get away with not making any of that right by falling on "PayPal doesn't cover live animals". You should be made whole.

With that said, The way it is written and appears to me is that it wasn't that he wouldn't replace the animal or that you wouldn't take a replacement.

You just wanted more than the replacement.

"I would like a pair as a replacement since I bought a baby for $400 n it came in as the wrong gender then died on me only after having it a week."

I don't think that is right either.

Now personally, if I made some serious mistakes or sent out a baby that shouldn't have been sent, I would apologize and maybe even offer something more to make it right or a full refund. I'd probably send you two if I screwed up.

I don't know if I would like it very much if the buyer demanded double what they paid for to make it right.

What were the remedies for the guarantees offered in the terms of sell if something went wrong?

Again, I could be reading it wrong. In this email you state

I would like a pair as a replacement since I bought a baby for $400 n it came in as the wrong gender then died on me only after having it a week. That's what I wanted to do when we talked last but u asked me to wait n see if it turned out to b a male or not. I can copy paste all our text chats if u want promise I'm not lying

You state that's what you wanted to do last you talked about it.

In the previous email you said you were going to buy them at $400 He said he sold them. The pair that was offered at $400 was gone.

I thought we had that chat about u selling a pair of girls for $400, n I was going to buy them from u that night but u told me to hold off until we knew what gender the baby I had was. Or I would have gotten them that night

Because he offered a different pair of girls for less doesn't mean that you automatically get double the replacement because you purchased one at that same price earlier.

You did pay for one at that price.

However, I think you should get your money back by what's posted here so far.

John, I firmly believe that TOS should and can be used to protect yourself from deceitful or problem buyers. However, it shouldn't be used to get out of what is right.

You believed you should replace the dragon because you agreed to it.

Why wasn't the animal packed properly and not shipped for am delivery?

You were notified pretty early about the condition of the animal and the presumed wrong sex.

I agree with you that you don't or shouldn't have to provide two as a replacement but to fall back on paypal doesn't cover live animals and keep the funds and not send a replacement is wrong too.

If your terms of service is no cash refunds even if you screw up, well, then I guess it is your policy. I may not agree with it but if everyone knows it in a transaction or asks about it, It's between you and your customers.

But to send out a dragon that dies in what, 4 days? I think you should at least replace it.

 

[A&J Dragonz]

It was over a week and under my guarantee I would replace the dragon with one of equal value if it dies within two weeks. I think hers died at 9 or 10 days. When I purchased the fed ex shipping label through reptiles express it did not show for a late delivery. And the weather did not seem it would need a cold pack. I used all reptiles express packaging supplies. Also the pair I was selling for $400 that she is referring to was a nipped ungauanteed sex pair.

 

[A&J Dragonz]

She saw that deal and demanded I send 2 to replace the 1 dragon she had purchased. When I did not reply to that within 15 min or so she then demanded a full refund.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

It was over a week and under my guarantee I would replace the dragon with one of equal value if it dies within two weeks. I think hers died at 9 or 10 days. When I purchased the fed ex shipping label through reptiles express it did not show for a late delivery. And the weather did not seem it would need a cold pack. I used all reptiles express packaging supplies. Also the pair I was selling for $400 that she is referring to was a nipped ungauanteed sex pair.

She saw that deal and demanded I send 2 to replace the 1 dragon she had purchased. When I did not reply to that within 15 min or so she then demanded a full refund.

Then I understood correctly last night in the response I was going to make to her. I agree You shouldn't have to replace with two.

I got the 4 days wrong from this paragraph in her post. She was talking about the condition at 4 days and that it died before she had a reply back. My mistake.

I should wait and give it time to be 100% certain it was in fact a male before shipping it back for a replacement. I kept in touch with him almost every day and after another couple past I contacted him letting him know the baby wasn't adjusting very well even for only having it 4 days it wasn't eating but the bare minimum and was stressed all day. I kept it alone and in a bin that it could not see any other dragons. By the time he got back to me about the baby not doing well it had passed away.

9 to 10 days still falls within your guarantee. Like I stated, I don't agree with having to provide 2 replacements but I hope you can work this out fairly.

 

[Pasodama]

From what I have read, by both parties, I believe a replacement, &/or refund, is due to the OP.
However, I do not agree with the 2, for 1, replacement. A person is to be "made whole". Not gain more/extra.
The only way I could see sending 2 dragons, as a replacement, is if each one is valued at around half of what the original dragon, which passed away, was valued at ($400).
Also, I believe the seller should pay shipping ('course, not everyone will do this and much depends on TOS, etc.).

 

[Guy Castro]

Plan and simple,you owe your customer a replacement! I know my customers are very glad I don't treat them like you treat yours!

 

[A&J Dragonz]

I think I clearly stated on here and to the customer I would send a replacement thank you guy Castro for your 2 cents

 

[David Reid]

Why was that dragon $400? Looks like a nice orange one but nothing special. You dragon people crack me up. Dragons multiply like rabbits, send her a really nice dragon and one that is not quite as colorful, what is the big deal?

Dave

 

[A&J Dragonz]

It was a triple Het. Witblits hypo trans. Witblits alone are going for $800-$1500

 

[A&J Dragonz]

Also was a dunner

 

[David Reid]

ok, know what none of those are. I just remember when Sandfires were neon red and $300. Dude, send her a dragon of equal value and one not quite as nice. It sounds like you are probably at least partially responsible for the dragon showing up late and hot. She had to make some phone calls, maybe take some time off of work, etc. Show her you do not take this death lightly, and show her that her time means something to you, and that you want to redeem yourself and your shipping practices.

Dave

 

[CalicoDragons]

In response to Dennis Hultman and everybody else. I was not asking for 2 animals to replace 1 because of being angry or trying to one up on John in this deal. I simply talked with him over the phone before the dragon past away about his health and gender guarantee and he was at that point selling the same dragon I paid $400 for and only asking $200. He was trying to raise money for a purchase on a snake he wanted. I said I would like to send him the money and get 2 females and then if the first baby I got was in fact a male I would send it back and he could refund me. After an odd conversation where he didn't understand what I was trying to talk with him about as far as the values of the animals go and if he would do that he got confused and didn't quite get what I was asking him. Basically I was saying that I would buy 2 females at the new price and pay up front. Then if the other turns out to be a male I would send back and get a refund. Or since he wanted me to wait a few weeks to be sure the baby was a male before doing anything about it I asked if he could (at that later date) still offer me the 2 girls for the same price. Since I was willing to wait on his request. I was in no way asking for more then I thought what I deserved in that situation.

John I never demanded anything from you. I was always very professional and nice in our conversations and since I posted all the text messages everybody else can see that as well. I nicely and simply asked for a full refund. Nothing more. Since we couldn't come up with an arrangement both of us thought worked I thought it would be easier to just get a refund and be done with all this. You never told me when I talked with you that your guarantee only covered replacements and not refunds. And you also mentioned your guarantee more then once in the conversation we had.
Also your statement about the fedex label not saying a late arrive is because like I mentioned before I called fedex up and had them drop the box off earlier then you had paid for because we were worried about the poor babies safety. If it were "late" like your saying it wouldn't have shown up until the next day because you sent it as an "end of day" so it could have been dropped off at any point that day and into the late evening and still would have been on time but would have been in the box all day with the high heat. And I was not willing to risk it so I called them up and corrected the issue.

 

[SoCalAce]

It is unlikely that this situation could be "made right" for me. There's a chance to make the customer happy in the end, but there are two mistakes that can't be taken back, and are not taken lightly by me.

1. Asking someone to send money as a gift, thereby eliminating the buyers protection to skirt a small fee. It's pretty much stealing.

2. "Mistake" in shipping label. Unfortunately, I am going to assume the label was selected to save another few dollars. Which is the second offense on being way too cheap on a $400 bearded dragon sale. Whether or not it was a mistake, it's one that should NEVER be made.

 

[Ed Clark]

John, you are in the wrong here, hiding behind your TOS to stick it to your customer is wrong.

As far as a 2 for 1 replacement that can work as long as the 2 are valued at the same cost as the 1 your customer received.

Plain and simple John, your customer service stinks!

 

[Ed Clark]

It was a triple Het. Witblits hypo trans. Witblits alone are going for $800-$1500

Anything witblits are not selling because of the black death spots that grow on them.

It's no longer a secret!

 

[CalicoDragons]

John still has not contacted me in any way or make any attempt to send me a refund or a replacement. I have tried many times to get him to talk with me and I am 100% sure he is seeing my messages. He just refuses to talk to me. Just as he is viewing this thread and only commenting back to all of you and not me.... Oh well I guess ill never see my money again but as a closing note at least I know he is pretty much messing his own name up here by avoiding me and not returning my funds and all of this by his own hand. I can say as well that I have been selling and breeding dragons for over ten years now and if and when any unexpected events occurred I always refunded or replaced and kept in touch with the customer (even when they were rude or demanding.) Which I feel I was neither....
Thank you everybody for your opinions and comments and I hope this thread helps others to stay away from a person like John Logston of A&J Dragonz
Amy Moses
www.CalicoDragons.com