I agree it's a sticky situation with no easy solutions but too many sellers have this "that's your problem not mine" attitude that I despise in this hobby. Even Petsmart..which seems to be a running joke among most hard core enthusiast here, offers a 14 day guarantee on all their livestock. So your guaranteeing the live animal I paid for will arrive alive? Oh wow thanks..that should be the standard in this industry. Real Guarantees are the ones that go beyond the unboxing. Possibly a prorated system might be of some use to protect both buyer and seller.
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Info Cautionary thread- Michael John (Frognerd.com)
- Thread starter GeckoLabs
- Start date
At some point, the problem does shift from one person to another.
Petsmart does not profit massively from the animal sales. It profits from the supportive paraphernalia and consumables. The 14-day guarantee is a strategic element and not one forged from generosity. The idea is that it is a relatively small hit that allows them to keep drawing their income from primary streams in the form of supplies. A corporate structure of its extent allows absorption of the small losses all the easier relative to a hobbyist breeder. Completely different model with completely different challenges and strategies.
I think a live arrival guarantee is the standard for most sellers already, so that just agrees with what is already in effect.
A live arrival guarantee is very much a real guarantee. You can offer whatever sort of extra guarantee you want, but that does not obligate another seller to match those thought designs. You have always been free to try to compete with others by using a prorated system of your design. It might even draw customers to you versus another party, so that is a fair offering for you to bear. It may also draw those who manufacture "losses" to take advantage of what you see as generosity. I urge you to try it if you believe in the concept you espouse. Nothing better than skin in the game.
Can you say more please about your prorating system? How would a prorated system work to protect the seller in cases such as Nickolas' example where there was pest treatment in the buyer's substrate that he/she bought but was not aware of, or my question about a possible attack by the buyer's animal that might have critically weakened an already travel-stressed delicate species?
Kristi23
New member
I offer live arrival guarantee, but if an animal dies within the first week, I would at least partially refund if the husbandry was correct.
What issue I have is that he would have refunded if the animal died a day or two later if he shipped them, but not picked up. I understand that a couple days away is stressful for an animal, but isn't that what happens at all the big shows? NARBC, etc? Those animals are in containers for many days, not housing. The stress of that doesn't kill them. I find it strange that stress would kill a healthy animal that quickly while keeping the other alive.
I can see both sides to this and it's a really tough situation for Dillon and the seller. If it was me, I would refund a partial payment (at least, but would prefer replacing when I had another animal) since I can't say either way if the animal may have had something going on with it. I try my best to make customers happy when I can and I know other breeders who go even further with issues like this. In the end, I don't know if I can fault either person and I do like that they both stayed calm and professional. This isn't a bad guy thread, so I think it's appropriate for others to see what happens in this situation.
What issue I have is that he would have refunded if the animal died a day or two later if he shipped them, but not picked up. I understand that a couple days away is stressful for an animal, but isn't that what happens at all the big shows? NARBC, etc? Those animals are in containers for many days, not housing. The stress of that doesn't kill them. I find it strange that stress would kill a healthy animal that quickly while keeping the other alive.
I can see both sides to this and it's a really tough situation for Dillon and the seller. If it was me, I would refund a partial payment (at least, but would prefer replacing when I had another animal) since I can't say either way if the animal may have had something going on with it. I try my best to make customers happy when I can and I know other breeders who go even further with issues like this. In the end, I don't know if I can fault either person and I do like that they both stayed calm and professional. This isn't a bad guy thread, so I think it's appropriate for others to see what happens in this situation.
I was wondering if that short contact with the male was what caused the female to start ovulating which was another stress factor? (and why that one died and the other is okay)
I think it is generally implied. Stating it definitively is more valuable than an implication.
agreed, due to the business practices in this industry it has to be stated. What I'm saying is it's not much though. IMO a 2 week health guarantee would stop tons of sick/dying animals from being sold and shipped plus it protects the buyer from a complete loss and/or some outrageous vet bill.
Kristi23
New member
I think one week is usually pretty good with something stated about proper care. Too many people buy animals before they know what the husbandry is and can kill them pretty easily. If the care is correct, that is a different story. I think I'm going to change my TOS to include that info. I do agree that there should be some guarantee besides an animal arriving alive.
Hi Lucillewhat's the confusion in Nickolas's case? (didn't read) If the buyer admitted that the animal died from a pesticide in the substrate that they chose to use then they're responsible.
Read.
Good idea for your honest buyer. But you know how it is, not everyone is honest. If you offer a one week across the board live guarantee and the buyer comes down with buyer's remorse, he would gain a refund by murdering the critter.
Kristi23
New member
It is true. I already did offer a 7 day though. Just added in info with husbandry. I guess I've gotten lucky over the years without anyone trying to scam me, but you make a good point. I would hope no one buying an animal would kill it on purpose though.
I just think that something should protect buyers past live arrival. How many people here have received animals that survived shipping, but looked like crap and died 1-2 days later. Or ones that outwardly looked ok, but still passed. I have a hard time blaming the buyer if they did everything correctly with the husbandry and care. It's what makes this situation tough.GeckoLabs
New member
Apparently my email doesn't like notifying me when there are replies . . .
Anyway, to address as many of the questions as I can recall reading though the recent replies-
RE: Second female-
She is doing great. Vigorous appetite, active, drinking well, etc.
No, she has not been seen by a vet as of yet, but I am likely setting up an appointment for this weekend if there is an opening, because I also need to schedule a follow up for one of our crested geckos that was on antibiotics.
RE: Brief contact with male-
While I situated their enclosures and snapped a small number of pics was the only time they were together. None of them showed any aggression toward one another (all were in my line of sight the entire time.)
And I don't believe the brief contact to be the cause for the ovulation, as it appeared to be well beyond a few days' progression upon examining her innards.
RE: Chalking it up to my error-
Had it of been directly and blatantly my error, I would. As I've stated, repeatedly, I place no direct blame on the seller. There is no way of knowing when an animal may have issues if there are no symptoms.
Yes, I did take them on two trips in a short period of time. The travel time, cumulatively was still less than what they would have spent in a box for overnight shipping, and they weren't being tossed around as we all know happens with the fedex packages from time to time.
I asked if picking up on my northbound trip was better for him, if he thought it would be too much stress, he could have easily said so and I would have still picked them up on saturday. I did it so I wasn't rushing him on saturday while he finished prepping for the white plains show. Apologies for being considerate and expecting the same in return.
Anyway, to address as many of the questions as I can recall reading though the recent replies-
RE: Second female-
She is doing great. Vigorous appetite, active, drinking well, etc.
No, she has not been seen by a vet as of yet, but I am likely setting up an appointment for this weekend if there is an opening, because I also need to schedule a follow up for one of our crested geckos that was on antibiotics.
RE: Brief contact with male-
While I situated their enclosures and snapped a small number of pics was the only time they were together. None of them showed any aggression toward one another (all were in my line of sight the entire time.)
And I don't believe the brief contact to be the cause for the ovulation, as it appeared to be well beyond a few days' progression upon examining her innards.
RE: Chalking it up to my error-
Had it of been directly and blatantly my error, I would. As I've stated, repeatedly, I place no direct blame on the seller. There is no way of knowing when an animal may have issues if there are no symptoms.
Yes, I did take them on two trips in a short period of time. The travel time, cumulatively was still less than what they would have spent in a box for overnight shipping, and they weren't being tossed around as we all know happens with the fedex packages from time to time.
I asked if picking up on my northbound trip was better for him, if he thought it would be too much stress, he could have easily said so and I would have still picked them up on saturday. I did it so I wasn't rushing him on saturday while he finished prepping for the white plains show. Apologies for being considerate and expecting the same in return.
FrogNerdLLC
New member
Hi everyone,
Michael John of FrogNerd here. I'm going to leave a brief statement about this transaction between the customer and I.
After getting a message on Facebook from the customer on Wednesday the 25th about him passing directly through philadelphia,
he asked if it would be okay for him to pick up the Abronia in question.
It was a simple choice for me: I wanted to make my customer happy, and knowing there's no better way for safe delivery(Live Arrival) of an animal than an In-Person handoff, I agreed and gave the customer my address.
He showed up mid-evening, and I gathered up the animals in temporary tubs and handed them off to him. We shook hands and he was back on his way.
After handing off the animals, the next day on November 26th the customer posted his satisfaction with the animals and their condition on his Facebook site "Gecko Labs" in the following status:
He goes as far as to describe them as "gorgeous", which implies that the animals were exceptional. I can only assume he chose to describe them as such after he inspected them more closely. One can see that they are bright eyed, and attentive.
The status shown was removed recently, and I do understand the reasons why, but it also proves his satisfaction with his purchase and his opinion of the animals in question before his dissappointing and mutually saddening loss.
Here is the link to the "content unavailable" removed status: https://www.facebook.com/geckollabs...5.1073741829.668315583242050/973879466018992/
Here is the link to the cached version of the status: http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...50/973879466018992/+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
I'm bringing this status to everyone's attention to transition into my Live Arrival Guarantee.
I gave the animals to the customer in, to use his own words, "gorgeous" condition. He has stated that they fed readily and acted appropriately/normally while in his care.
After the In-Person hand off, my responsibility as their care-giver ended; simply because there is no way that I can guarantee an animals treatment/living conditions after they leave my hands.
I provided the customer with animals that he self-described as gorgeous, and several days later there was an unfortunate loss.
After preforming his own autopsy the customer has said that everything inside the animal was normal, and that ovulation was starting to take place. This points to exceptional health in the animal, as previously stated in the this thread.
This is why I referenced my Live Arrival Guarantee on my website when speaking with Dillon a few days ago via Facebook. He received healthy, active animals, and they behaved as such until his unfortunate discovery of one that passed away after several days of normal behavior.
While I am very sorry and saddened by the loss of his animal, I provided the customer with everything he asked for before the unfortunate incident took place, and there is not much else I can do in this situation. I wish all of you well in your future endeavours.
Sincerly,
- Michael John/FrogNerd.com
Michael John of FrogNerd here. I'm going to leave a brief statement about this transaction between the customer and I.
After getting a message on Facebook from the customer on Wednesday the 25th about him passing directly through philadelphia,
he asked if it would be okay for him to pick up the Abronia in question.
It was a simple choice for me: I wanted to make my customer happy, and knowing there's no better way for safe delivery(Live Arrival) of an animal than an In-Person handoff, I agreed and gave the customer my address.
He showed up mid-evening, and I gathered up the animals in temporary tubs and handed them off to him. We shook hands and he was back on his way.
After handing off the animals, the next day on November 26th the customer posted his satisfaction with the animals and their condition on his Facebook site "Gecko Labs" in the following status:
He goes as far as to describe them as "gorgeous", which implies that the animals were exceptional. I can only assume he chose to describe them as such after he inspected them more closely. One can see that they are bright eyed, and attentive.
The status shown was removed recently, and I do understand the reasons why, but it also proves his satisfaction with his purchase and his opinion of the animals in question before his dissappointing and mutually saddening loss.
Here is the link to the "content unavailable" removed status: https://www.facebook.com/geckollabs...5.1073741829.668315583242050/973879466018992/
Here is the link to the cached version of the status: http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...50/973879466018992/+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
I'm bringing this status to everyone's attention to transition into my Live Arrival Guarantee.
I gave the animals to the customer in, to use his own words, "gorgeous" condition. He has stated that they fed readily and acted appropriately/normally while in his care.
After the In-Person hand off, my responsibility as their care-giver ended; simply because there is no way that I can guarantee an animals treatment/living conditions after they leave my hands.
I provided the customer with animals that he self-described as gorgeous, and several days later there was an unfortunate loss.
After preforming his own autopsy the customer has said that everything inside the animal was normal, and that ovulation was starting to take place. This points to exceptional health in the animal, as previously stated in the this thread.
This is why I referenced my Live Arrival Guarantee on my website when speaking with Dillon a few days ago via Facebook. He received healthy, active animals, and they behaved as such until his unfortunate discovery of one that passed away after several days of normal behavior.
While I am very sorry and saddened by the loss of his animal, I provided the customer with everything he asked for before the unfortunate incident took place, and there is not much else I can do in this situation. I wish all of you well in your future endeavours.
Sincerly,
- Michael John/FrogNerd.com
Attachments
tlmoon
New member
I see no fault on the seller here. It's an unfortunate happening but the buyer picked up healthy appearing animals and one passed away for no clear reason. There is no evidence of poor care by the seller or buyer.
You are buying a living animal; they can pass away. It's sad and disappointing but it can happen and not be anyone's fault.
If the buyer is disputing with PayPal and has removed FB pictures of the healthy animals that is questionable to me.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You are buying a living animal; they can pass away. It's sad and disappointing but it can happen and not be anyone's fault.
If the buyer is disputing with PayPal and has removed FB pictures of the healthy animals that is questionable to me.
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yeloowtang
New member
totaly agree with tlmoon's last phrase too.
in no way is the seller responsible nor do i see any reason what's so ever to refund, don't even understand why he refunded the 40$ shipping unless it was a mistake and included in the original price ???
in no way is the seller responsible nor do i see any reason what's so ever to refund, don't even understand why he refunded the 40$ shipping unless it was a mistake and included in the original price ???
RE: Chalking it up to my error-
Had it of been directly and blatantly my error, I would. As I've stated, repeatedly, I place no direct blame on the seller. There is no way of knowing when an animal may have issues if there are no symptoms.
QUOTE]
Unfortunately, no matter how much efforth you put in to care for them on that trip, this is entirely on you. they should have been picked up on your way back or just get them shipped.
I've read alot of replies about how sellers should be giving 1 week guarantees ??
as i said before, this would be nice of course, as it takes away some of the risk and transfers it over to the seller !! all nice and dandy in a perfect world.
but it's not a perfect world and we have to remember that these are live exotic animals that demand way more care than a simple dog or cat..
unless a seller would include a complete package that will give the animal eveything it needs and be fault free (dummy proof) then yes maybe.or if one could be 100% sure that the set up and parameters are spot on all the time !! ok yes but that should still only apply if the animal had a health issue discovered after death.
but after the animal is in the new owners hands and received in perect health, in no way should a seller be responsible and have to refund for the new owners mistakes.
it's not about the $$ at all, but about the care,time and efforth that breeders put in these animals. It's always nerv racking (for me anyways) when i sell a baby to someone knowing that I won't be caring for it and the new person will..I always get in touch weeks , then months later to see how things are going.
A breeder can sell to client A and the animal lives a full life or the same animal to client B and he kills it in two days !!!
so unless the op's animal had a real necropsy done by proffessionals and conclude it had a problem ?? then in no way should he get a refund.
especialy that all the other lizards are doing great and the dead one was too.
the way i see this is, if the OP does dispute this with paypal and in some way wins this !! then he's the bad guy for taking $$ from the seller..
My only other real issue with this right now is, after seeing that lizard, I want one too
so OP, i'm verry sorry for your lost but in the end, your decision to take delicate animals on that trip was a risk and you lost one because of this..