Chelsea Richardson-SNAKE KILLER...

[SoulSmilen]

Now Jim, once again you show your true brilliance. What is nonsense, stupid and silliness? IMO, it would be someone that calls a proven good guy a scammer ( I might add, that has a awesome reputation). Stop me if I am wrong, but you did use your brilliance in that manner by calling me a scammer because I called it what it was. Granted, I did not agree with you. Also I never will when you call a long time proven scammer a good guy.

You do have one hell of a nerve calling someone else a dope, stupid or a scammer. Jim, you are looking at a long hard road, but not without just cause. Unlike you, I tend to be up front. Yes, a spade is nothing more but just a spade.

Is it not something how anyone that does not agree with Jim get fired upon and with true wit, so he thinks?

Yes Jim, I think many of us see you just how you are.

I will give you a bit of advice, it might be best if you pick your battles a little better. I did not start this fight, but I can war when needed.

As for Chelsea, she killed this snake. Yes, David could have educated her about the care of this animal. But did David know she was not a long time keeper? Did she ask him for advice on the proper care?

But IMO, I think it would be wise for anyone getting a animal to do the research first. Did she do this? If so it does not show.

IMHO, It is the owners responsibility to learn the proper care. It should not be blamed on the seller if they choose not to learn before they purchase.

C'mon Bobby, no one is blaming David; no one is arguing that her lack of knowledge killed the snake. Yes, she killed it; it still does not make her a snake killer from which everyone should shy.

It's not a BOI issue, period. It was a one-time deal, with someone who was met in a parking lot for a snake purchase. Regardless of whether she continues to buy or becomes more involved in the herp world (and she could be representative of anyone we might sell to that is not a 'herp keeper'), are we going to start making a warning post in the BOI not to sell to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that fits that bill? I sure as hell hope not, because I'd be willing to be we've all lost a snake (or other animal) or two (or more) and the bottom line is, no matter how experienced we might be or how loathe we are to admit it, it is usually due to improper husbandry or something we could have prevented. Not always, but usually.

This has been blown way out of proportion with the side arguments and personal conflicts here. Unreal, but expected these days.

I'm guilty myself of being too harsh at times or punching below the belt, but there is nothing in this thread that warrants this mess. Why don't we just buck up, realize there are personality wars at work here and move on?

 

[SoulSmilen]

I am attempting to assist the animals in Chelsea's care....whether I can do it personally or through someone else remains to be seen. My main concern is the well being of the animals in her care now.

Way to go; keep us posted on how it goes. Hopefully this can be a positive in the end; if not, it was worth the try.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Bobby,

Bobby,
You seem to want to import things into the thread, but let me state here for all that I have never called "a good guy" a "scammer", nor have I ever called a "proven scammer" a "good guy". I may have set out some bait as a means of showing others how pathetic it is to allay the guilt of one party on another, which is exactly what was being done by others in the example, which I believe is what has you miffed. These stupid, and I do mean stupid, charges by you are either without substance, or part of a gross misunderstanding at best. What I did offer to you, once I saw you going over the edge with what I readily label BS, was the suggestion that you call me. You declined, and yet have chosen to continue the stupidity here. Suit yourself.

In this thread, there are several posts by thoughtful people who disagree with much of David's assumptions, conclusions, etc. I am one who takes issue with him as well. Others, and I believe you are in that group, harbor an opposite opinion. To no one's surprise, Wes's first post had my name in it plenty, as now yours does. I am starting to believe that you now sell mirrors on the side, as you are always telling people to look in them ! I'll look forward to being able to so easily get under your skin, and to seeing my name in your posts for a long time to come, as that seems your choice.

Wolfy,
Almost every member here would have been upset with the demise of the snake. Don't know that we'd have stomped, etc. Highly doubt that most of us would have come here in the manner of David. Highly expect that almost none of us would, save the usual ne'er-do-wells.

David,
Good idea, as it is my opinion that someone trying to help her is the first best way to improve things. While she may resist your attempts to help, she may take a couple things to heart, and in time get the motivation to seek help elsewhere.

 

[Casey Hulse]

David, That is too bad about the snake, but I know from experience a sm BRB can perish very quickly if it is kept in an environment that lacks the moisture they need to thrive. Maybe Chelsea needs a knowledgeable friend to help her, but at this point she does not belong on the OBI. Ignorance is not always "bliss" and you may be able to help her. I know you, and feel that you would be happy to help her out.
Jim. I know what Bobby is refering to and

These stupid, and I do mean stupid, charges by you are either without substance, or part of a gross misunderstanding at best

it is probably a misunderstanding, but maybe you could try this..."Bobby, I apologize if I offended you"...
If it is respect you desire..., you need to use your inteligence/experience in a productive way, most people like some healthy debate. If someone disagrees with me, that does not mean that they are wrong, IMHO.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Casey,
Call it what you will, but as things were starting to cross over into what I saw as absurdity, I asked Bobby to call, as we have spoken before. At the time, he was offending me plenty, and I am not into the "if I offended you, I am sorry" silliness. If you haven't noticed. I expect to offend at times, and would owe Wes a dump truck load if such apologies were proper. They are not. I am all for clearing misunderstandings, and see the BOI as the worse place to do such, followed by emails. Phone calls can work wonders. Bobby may have a bone to pick with me. I have a few to clean with him as well. One thing I do not have to do is run to a thread when he or Wes has posted, and divert from the topic to them with my first post. In the meantime, I enjoy my power over Wes, as even with me on "ignore", he can't enter a thread in which I am posting without consuming his first post on me. If others want to bequeath me that influence over them also, I will use it, and enjoy the opportunity.

In the end, I have to applaud David, as he seemed to moderate. He came here spitting a few too many bullets IMO. He had every right to warn us of Chelsea, of her apparent lack of husbandry, and of his experience with her trying to claim cause for refund. At the same time, she is not to be considered useless or hopeless. Its her money and efforts going down the drain as her animals die needlessly. That's a cause for motivation in itself. As Soul Smilen pointed out, and did yours truly, that with all the negative efforts being expended to trash her, maybe somebody can try to lend her at least a note, suggesting some ideas, and where to get good info.

 

[varnyard]

Casey, I was talking about Jim calling me Bobby Pruitt (A well known scammer). He also called me stupid, but it would make one wonder if that light were not better shown on him. Well, unless that is what he thinks was some Chameleon Company brilliance.

Chameleon Company: Bobby,
You seem to want to import things into the thread, but let me state here for all that I have never called "a good guy" a "scammer

So Jim, you have now been caught in a lie.


Jim, do not think that calling me Bobby Pruitt will win you any cupcakes. Also do start back taking your meds.

One more thing, Jim, I do not have hours to spend hearing you whine and complain on the phone. There are many other things that will take my time, in such having much more value than your call.

 

[Jim O]

Here's the Cliff Notes version as I see it:

• Chelsea's ignorance of proper husbandry likely led to the death of a beautiful animal.
• David showed ignorance and bigotry and kept defending it even after he should have simply apologized and moved on.
• David was right to refuse Chelsea's request for a refund.
• Most everyone agrees with the above to a greater or lesser extent and are merely arguing with each other about issues not germane to the subject at hand. I can practically smell the testosterone.
• As someone wisely said earlier in this thread, Chelsea's kind of ignorance is much more easily solved than is David's.

Did I miss anything important? It's hard to believe that this drivel has gone on for over 80 posts. In fact it's hard to believe this merited a BOI thread at all.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Now this is getting interesting, although quite off-topic. In a prior thread, I did inject the name of a known scammer, Bobby Pruett, into a thread that had nothing to do with Pruett. I used the name "Bobby Pruett", and not "Bobby Hill", being sure to do so. I then proceeded to comment about a scam by Bobby Pruett as if it were relevent to the thread, which it was directly not. At the time, my beef with Mr. Hill was that he was directly assigning the sins of one entity to another. He was clueless then, as he is now. Of course he does not want to waste time on the phone. He'd rather waste it here. This incident lasted all of two posts by me. Once others in the thread had taken their due offense, I posted this in that same thread on the same day:

Bobby. We have met. I have every reason to believe you a person of highest integrity in your business. Unlike the shortsighted posts of a few of the common scum here, I never said you were "linked" to Pruett in any way. I juxtaposed a name, and then merely argued a completely irrelevant point here about TM's and pinstripes. Just a trail of bread for the snipes to follow. I could not have been more illustrative of the appearance that I was speaking of Bobby Pruett. That he had nothing to do with the rest of the thread was for others to surmise, and it apparently was beyond the grasp of a few! No surprise what-so-ever at the mental midgets that connected the dots as they chose to. It was a designed exercise in stupidity, knowing that there would be players.

Bobby still says that he was called a scammer by me. Not true, but so as to assuade his concerns then, I deliberately stated what I highlighted in bold above. I then stated this:

Bobby. You have the balls. So use them and call me. We're in the same state, and we've spoken 2-3 times before on unrelated issues. I'm in throughout the holidays. Don't be chicken$hit. You may think you have an earful for me. I will answer any concern you have. I have a dumptruck load for you, but will let you unload all first. You'd be welcome to visit if in the neighborhood. Just reasonable hours please (10 AM - 9 PM EST). If you need the number again, check my ads in KS, or PM me.

There is a subset of jesters here, that seems to have added a member of late, that troll from thread to thread, always with a chip on their shoulder. Bobby, you have a chip with my name on it now, and its wearing you down good. My belief is that a simple phone call could have lifted it off you some time ago, but you are more than welcome to lug it around in the meantime.

I think you have the topic-at-hand correct Jim O. We'll mark the moment by noting that Saddam Hussein had his neck stretched earlier in the hour.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

"I" does not = "everyone," but that's neither here nor there, I suppose. There are many people who would be able to calmly talk about husbandry practices without lying, being herp haters, or being Buddha; probably more in that category than the alternative. Being a calm person does not negate truth and/or compassion, so lumping us all together as above is just as 'offensive' as the trailer trash lumping if one chooses to be offended about careless collective remarks.

As for someone else talking to her... yup, that was suggested already; it's probably the only hope since the trash attitude is already there.

First I did not say that no one would be able to talk to her calmly.. I said "If you had a lovely healthy animal then saw it near dead from neglect..." THEN you would be able to remain calm and not angry..
Look at how many people were angry at her here. They were not there, and did not 'know' the snake before she 'killed' it.
Look at your own herps, happy, healthy and fat, content animals. Now picture someone taking one and killing it by depriving it of enough water and moisture. You'd stay calm? You'd simply talk to her about how she could avoid it? Be honest. YOu'd be angry! Any of us would. Our herps are not objects with price tags. They are pets. That puts them near the catagory of children to us. Of course you'd be angry. If you weren't I'd wonder that either you didn't care very much about the animal in the first place OR that you have the patience of Budda.
I'm honest about myself. I'd be beyond angry! I'd yell, and cry, and call names.. and storm off with my nearly dead snake. Like I said, I'd like to think I'd reach out to help her after I calmed down, but I couldn't guarentee it. If you can guarentee that you'd be all calm and talk it out with her,a nd not be upset and yelling at her.. well then good for you. Most of the herpers I've met would react with anger and sorrow. Not calm wonderful healing energies. Sorry.
I didn't say anything insulting to herpers. If you are wanting ot start some big fight here for no reason, then you are sorely out of luck with me. I'll say take it to pm's.
Wolfy

 

[Chameleon Company]

Wolfy,
I sell in quantities, dealing with a more fragile animal than most. I know that half of what I sell will be dead within 12 months, if not sooner. I don't like it. I try to provide information to reduce that number. As a young man, I killed many animals for reasons I can only label as stupidity. Not malicious intent. Some of us most certainly would not react as you claim you would, and have a track record to prove it. And if we were angry, we would keep within the anger, and deal with it.

 

[christopher66]

One last hurrah for ol' 2006.So much for all that peace on earth good will toward man crap eh gang...And the band played on.

 

[varnyard]

Chameleon Company: Now this is getting interesting, although quite off-topic. In a prior thread, I did inject the name of a known scammer, Bobby Pruett, into a thread that had nothing to do with Pruett. I used the name "Bobby Pruett", and not "Bobby Hill", being sure to do so. I then proceeded to comment about a scam by Bobby Pruett as if it were relevent to the thread, which it was directly not. At the time, my beef with Mr. Hill was that he was directly assigning the sins of one entity to another. He was clueless then, as he is now. Of course he does not want to waste time on the phone. He'd rather waste it here. This incident lasted all of two posts by me. Once others in the thread had taken their due offense, I posted this in that same thread on the same day:

False, what you did was take my post and quoted it as a comment from Bobby Pruitt. In so doing you called me him. In so doing, this is where the lie comes into play once again.

You never apologized for your actions, you only acted like a worm. You tried to talk your way out of your actions, a lot like you are doing now. Jim, your actions will not be forgotten.

It is so hard to admit you are/were wrong, a Jim?

 

[Wilomn]

Actually Theresa, I'd be angry if I chose to be but it is not mandated.

And, even if I were angry, I may not let the person who made me angry know I was.

Your theory is full of holes. Just because YOU would does not mean everyone else would.

Of course, it does go with the way most think here.

 

[SoulSmilen]

Wolfy, there is no fight at all, and nothing to take to PMs; sorry you took my words that way, they were not meant to be antagonizing at all. I simply wanted to point out that not everyone would react the same way, period. There would be extremes on both sides, then there would be people somewhere in the middle. I still don't believe most would yell and scream and stomp, but there's no point in us going on with that. You know how you would react, I know how I would react, and I wouldn't dare tell you what you may or may not do; how the hell would I know?

No worries; we're all different folks and the differences in all of us is what makes the world go 'round.

 

[varnyard]

BTW Jim, I did not miss you comment on the troll.

Chameleon Company: There is a subset of jesters here, that seems to have added a member of late, that troll from thread to thread, always with a chip on their shoulder. Bobby, you have a chip with my name on it now, and its wearing you down good.

But Jim is just all of that and a box of popcorn. Yea Jim, you are something, really something.

What class!!

 

[Wolfy-hound]

Well, I didn't mean to say EVERYONE would, but I have a lot of friends with animals, both herps and dogs, and cats. With every incendant that is similar, they HAVE reacted that way.
I didn't realize you were more of a volumne dealer. After such a high number of sales of a not-so-easy herp that is so difficult to keep(what kind? Just curious, the BRB? I didn't know they were delicate) you have ot sort of develop a thicker skin. I know I had to with the baby seahorses I sent to other people. But with the older seahorses, if I sent them to someone who said they did know how to take care, and I found they dumped them into a tank full of agressive fishes that killed it, well.. I'd be ticced, but I invested much more time and care into that older animal, raising it from a fry to a subadult. So I know where you are coming from. I guess us small timers are still very attached to each and every snake.
No problem SoulSmitten, I've gotten to watching out for people leaping on me from not only here, but a couple other forums. Its been "one of those weeks" and I apoligize that I read attitude into your post that you didn't intend.
I guess more people in the herp world are more level-headed than me. I still am pretty sure I'd go off. I try to help out anyone possible that needs it, but there are certain things that will set me off, and the major one would be someone hurting one of "my" animals. After I've hatched a bunch, and sold a bunch, maybe I'll develop more distance. I know that we all have made those dumb mistakes, and have 'killed' herps due to ignorance. I let a female hatchling get out,a nd she died without me finding her until she had passed away. There is my mistake.
It's all good. All friends.
Wolfy

 

[Chameleon Company]

Bobby,
I can't be more deliberately indirect than I was, using the name Pruett, or however it is spelled, and then more deliberatley direct in stating this, as I did, once the example had been made by others for me:

Bobby. We have met. I have every reason to believe you a person of highest integrity in your business.

Unlike my example, you were directly assigning the crimes of one entity on another, so as to then harm. Carry that rock well. Looks like it has gotten even heavier. And thank you. I am class ........... of ......... William and Mary, 1984, after I got out of the service

Theresa.
Not sure if you are asking me, but I am "The Chameleon Company", and my animal of quantity is ... you guessed it ... chameleons !!! We also all have differing standards as to the value of our reptiles as more than income. To anyone who sells a reptile, unless you include an in-depth pre-sale screening process, where there is a possibility that someone could misrepresent themselves to you, when you sell an animal, its not yours anymore to safeguard. You traded that for cash. It doesn't make it OK for the new owner to not care for it properly, nor for you to not anguish if it suffers or dies. The more you sell, the more it will happen. The key is to find ways to reduce the ignorance out there that exists. Maybe hand out a care sheet with each sale ? Maybe a website chock-full of husbandry info for the animals you sell ? Not to blast David, but somewhere in the communications he had the opportunity to quiz Chelsea, and get a feel for how much she knew. Maybe he did, and she snowed him good. Maybe he didn't, and just assumed. Maybe next time.

 

[christopher66]

To anyone who sells a reptile, unless you include an in-depth pre-sale screening process, where there is a possibility that someone could misrepresent themselves to you, when you sell an animal, its not yours anymore to safeguard. You traded that for cash. It doesn't make it OK for the new owner to not care for it properly, nor for you to not anguish if it suffers or dies. The more you sell, the more it will happen. The key is to find ways to reduce the ignorance out there that exists. .

Amen!

 

[monkeywrench133]

I apoligize that I read attitude into your post that you didn't intend.

How about an apology for saying "Anyone who says that they could is either NOT a herp lover, is lying, or is Budda reincarnated." about anyone who wouldn't have a temper tantrum like you?

 

[varnyard]

Bobby,
I can't be more deliberately indirect than I was, using the name Pruett, or however it is spelled, and then more deliberatley direct in stating this, as I did, once the example had been made by others for me:

Well Jim, let me be direct, since you choose to be indirect.

I will now hold your thoughts and posts in the same regard as Chris Johnson's (TSE, known scammer and liar till the end). Jim has added himself to my list of scumbags. Well deserved I might add.

Personally, I think you have the backbone of a jellyfish. I also think you have the actions of a worm, so now you need to craw back to you manure heap. I will say it right up front in your face. How’s that for deliberate and direct?

Chameleon Company: Bobby. We have met. I have every reason to believe you a person of highest integrity in your business.

Jim, after your actions/lies, I could care less what you think. My reputation was well earned by me!! You had nothing to do with it at all.

BTW, ya been to the library lately? A bunch of your comments above look like someone else we all know.

As for David, I think you did what you could. It is very hard to know the buyers experience when selling to them on the web. We can do what we can, but we can not make them take proper care of the animal. That would hold true with experienced lazy keepers as well, I have dealt with a few of them too.

I am also sorry for hijacking your thread, but I have had enough of Jim. It needed to be addressed somewhere. He will not fly around like the queen bee any longer without drawing fire. He made his choice.