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Chris DeLay Stellar Constrictors sick lemon pastel

DeLay Jumping to "Disease"

Howdy, I have never posted on the BOI, but I cannot allow something like this to transpire without comment. I agree with prior statements by others that the incorrect sexing is enough to warrant a full refund (which by my definition would include return shipping costs). But IMHO there is a much more frightening issue here. As I was reading all the emails posted by Paul, I noticed he was careful not to be accusatory or to put any blame on Chris. He was merely attempting to determine the best course of action for the health of this fragile "girl". As he was coming to what must have been his wits-end, Chris states:
How am I to know it didn't catch a disease from your collection? I'm certainly not implying it did, but there are always possibilities. I don't see how I could be responsible for a disease obtained while in your custody, which the snake certainly did not have when it was shipped out.
Click to expand...
Now up until this email, I noted a conspicous lack of anything even resembling a suspicion of disease on the buyers part. My question is this: Why the sudden jump by Chris to defend against an accusation which was never made?

I must admit curiousity on a number of other issues which came to light during the course of the emails:
1. Why would a female that throws "small" eggs repeatedly not be culled from breeding?
2. Where are the sibling to this "tiny" snake, and how are they faring?
3. What are the long-term reprecussions on Pauls collection and business, stemming from this one unethical (understatement) decision by Chris?
4. If this is in fact a disease and contagious, how many others' collections and businesses are now in jeapordy from dealings with Chris and his partner SNReptiles this season?

I was deeply appalled to see that someone would have so little respect for these wondrous creatures to have shipped one in such a weakened state. It is truly a tragic day when someone breeds an animal and then risks that very animal for a measley $2500.00. This poor creature has no greed or avarice in it's heart, it is simply fighting what is looking like a losing battle. Then along comes a creature vastly superior in many ways, but instead of offering help, what does he do? He drops it in a cold box, and in exchange for a few dollars ships it out. I feel very deeply for Paul, who was looking forward to a beautiful, brightly colored fat little girl: yet receives a sickly, emaciated (albeit brightly colored) boy. This is how our community breeds distrust. If this is how we treat each other, how then can we ask non-herp people to give these creatures a chance to prove themselves as companions?

Sadly,
Matt Staudenmaier
 
I would like to make a few comments on this thread.

1) The fact that the animal was found to be incorrectly sexed right off the bat is a huge problem as the price the buyer paid was 2-3 times the value of the animal shipped him regardless of all other issues.

2) Paul, I am not attacking you but the 61 degree box temp is nothing to do with anything. I have had ball pythons shipped to me that were lost and ended up at below freezing temps for a couple days and rebounded. 61 degrees in fact is a great temp for a snake in shipping. It did not have anything to do with this. You always would prefer over cold to over heated. Overheated snakes die. Overly cold ones almost always respond very well to gradual warming.

3) Dr. Funk is a very respected expert BUT don't jump on this IBD thing as he never stated the animal had IBD and in fact could only determine that if you allowed him to perform a liver biopsy on the animal. As for neurological problems, they are very very common in snakes that have been overheated or over exposed to chemicals like mite killing pet strips.

4) It is my OPINION from having dealt with tens of thousands of baby ball pythons in my time in this business, that the situation with the snake just by the facts layed out here and the pics you have posted is very easily diagnosed and I think Corey Woods would agree with me as I know he has seen plenty of this as well, the animal at that length/size and having that little mass and muscle tone is simply and animal that is getting older and has not been eating. It hatched, shed and has refused to feed and the seller is getting rid of it before it dies. I have seen it hundreds and hundreds of times. The thin bottom third of the body with poor muscle tone and sagging flesh by the tail. It has either not eaten at all or not in a long time. If you end up stuck with this animal I would urge you to force feed it small meals a couple times a week to try to save it's life for both the animal's sake and yours.

All told, the only way that I would ever send somebody an animal like that is if I told them in advance that it was in bad shape, a poor eater and was being sold dirt cheap "as is". But in all honesty, when I do have that happen here, I force feed the animals and they evenetually either eat on their own or die.

There is just not one reason for this seller to not refund this buyer purchase and give him an apology as Mr. Woods has stated. It is this type of transaction that chases buyers away from this hobby, business and buying from people who are not standing right in front of them. It hurts me. It hurts everyone using this site and it hurts the animal.

So Stellar Constrictors, how about you send this man his money back and take bake this inferior product? This animal was anything but a "stellar" constrictor. Evan Stahl
 
Well said Evan.

I couldnt agree more about the fact that the selling of animals like that hurt this entire hobby.

I dont care if its a 2500 animal or a 2.50 animal, they deserve more respect then that, and so does the buyer. To often people are turned off to the hobby we love by a seller whos only in it for a quick buck, very sad.
 
I couldn't help but post on this one. I must say that Matt said it VERY, VERY well and brought up some points I haven't thought of. I'm not experienced compared to the guys in this transaction, having only owning herps a few years now, BP's in particular. But, the last time I saw a snake that looked like that, was when I received 4 emaciated CH farmed BP's from a supposed reputable breeder. In the end, sad to say, all my efforts to save the little guys were in vein, as they all died. I'm trying not to digress too much, but my point is, what other people have brought up. IMHO, this was an effort to make a quick buck, as seen in my own case. The difference is, I was out $100 and Paul is out $2500. Any way you slice it, that's a loss Nobody wants to absorb. I've seen it plenty of times. Breeders will do this to people they think don't know any better, but when they sell to someone as experienced as Paul, they end up in a perdicament and quickly coming up with excuses and try to pass blame. The sad thing is, if Chris would've stepped up to the plate in the beginning and acted like a good businessmen, this thread probably would've never been started. Points already made that I would reinforce would be:
1. Snake was sent out in a known unhealthy state(I don't care what Chris says, it's impossible otherwise). Babies especially newborns, should be beefed up before shipped. CLEARLY not the case.
2. Snake was improperly sexed.
3. Paul has acted so patient and calm and has provided proof beyond a reasonable doubt, if you will, of the situation.
4. A female who is known to throw tiny babies should NOT be bred, it is completely unethical to do otherwise. Don't we want to preserve the health and vitality of the Ball Python as a species? Heck, enough inbreeding is going on to possibly jeopardize that anyways(that's a whole nuther topic).
All in all, I'm probably repeating exactly what others have said, but I had to put my two cents in. This stuff really discourages me from the community, but then again one bad apple shouldn't spoil the bunch. I would like to hope and think that there are still breeders out there that do it for the passion, rather than the buck. Nuff said.
-Cathy Hrusa
 
It doesn't look like it seen one meal....Aside from the disrespect to the animal and Mr. Farmer, we cant discount the disrespect you do yourself to sell such an obviously crappy ball python...Definately not the best way to come into the market...Make it right...refund the man his money....
 
Excellent post Evan. In my opinion the sagging folds of skin in the lower third of the body suggests: a. the animal has not eaten in a while (and weighing 36 g probably never) b. the animal was dehydrated upon arrival. The eating, non-eating issue would be very easy to determine because it ate the Tuesday before shipping thus it should have passed feces (not urates) at Paul’s place. As far as IBD goes it is VERY UNLIKELY that an animal of this age will show symptoms of the disease. It is more probably a result of sudden change in temperatures as already stated.

Thanks,
 
It is absolutely disgraceful to ship an animal in that condition, and it is absolutely disgusting that a refund wasn't given for that alone. There is no question that a refund is due for the incorrect sexing of the ball python, period.


Paul Snyder
 
no questions asked you deserve a full refund and more.
You went above and beyond to give him every chance, and he still refused to be a stand up guy.
When I first saw the picture on the other forum I thought exactly what evan said, the snake is half dead and he sold it before it died on him.

you did every reasonable thing to make this right, I'm sorry you got treated this way. It makes it harder on all the small guys when someone acts so dishonestly.

Good luck,
TomChambers
 
Well said, Tom. My wife and I are building a breeding colony right now and we certainly don't want to be the next "untrusted" new guy on the block because of the poor business ethics of a few.
That said, this forum has been worth it's weight in gold in helping us make informed decisions.
And you're correct on another point, Tom. Paul not only deserves his $2,500 but also money to cover vet bills.


I hope all works out for you Paul!

Paul Snyder
 
Paul,
You got completely screwed by this joker. I know someone suggested that even if it does live, never breed it. Isn't that the very reason you pay 2500 for a snake? So you can breed it and make your money back!

As all have stated you deserve a refund which you will obviously never get. That sucks and just gives one more reason to never buy from all these "newcomers" which completely screws them. Had you actually bought from NERD I am willing to bet you would have been totally satisfied (not that the small breeders would all screw you, but at this point who can you trust).

Either way though I hope that little snake makes it. Good luck.

Chris Marston
 
First of all I agree that Paul should get a full refund (before he sends it back). I also knew when I first saw the pic on Kingsnake that the ball had probably never eaten or at least not in a very long time (and with a ball that age my money is on never). I am sure that the seller knew what he was doing and was hoping Paul wouldn't know any better.

I did want to make a comment on the small egg size though. First of all since the seller obviously lied about the eating issue it is quite likely he lied about the size of the rest of the clutch and about previous clutches from the mother.

Even if he is telling the truth it doesn't necessarily mean there is a genetic predisposition towards small babies. Last year we acquired a pet-shop trade-in female that turned up gravid. She was small and not seriously sickly but not fat and healthy either. She laid 5 small eggs and we hatched 3 very small babies. They were all 40-45g. The next clutch she had was after good feeding and proper care. She had 5 good eggs and we hatched 5 average babies all between 60-70g.

Anyway, I would take the sellers comments with a grain of salt regarding the size, if he is willing to unload a sick baby maybe he isn't feeding his females very well either.

Laura Tanner
 
Thanks for all the comments and additional information. I did not know that shipping near 60 deg is a good thing. The breeders who have delivered me snakes in the winter are always very focused on keeping the animals warm enough with heat packs and even waiting for weeks-on-end for a break in cold weather to ship. Maybe that's mostly for good customer perception and relations. As I stated in the e-mails I did allow the animal to warm up to room temperature in the shipping box with ice packs removed over a period of several hours. The snake would have cooled slowly in the box, then was warmed slowly when I received it. I've got enough herp-sense to know better than just to throw it on a heat pad..."Oh my God! It's cold, warm it up quick!"...NO, not me. As far as the neurological problems, I know it has not seen excessive temps in my care and certainly has not been exposed to toxins in my care. I have done thorough inspection of its head with a jeweler's loop, checking its nostrils, eyes, and pits. Wiped its body and inspected every spec under a microscope. No mites. In 1999 I got a BP with mites. I slathered it with cooking oil and put it in a rubbermaid shoebox with cooking oil smeared around inside it for 45 minutes, then washed the snake in warm, soapy water. Repeated the process a week later and haven't seen a mite since. No chemicals or pesticides, I'm definitely anal that way. As far as IBD is concerned, it does progress at different rates in each individual animal. I truly wish I could rule it out as a possibility due to the young age, but due to its weak condition, this animal's immune system probably isn't top-notch. I have to proceed under worse-case scenario, yet still give this animal every chance to recover. I have many thousands of dollars invested in other BP's and have a moral and financial obligation to protect those animals. It finally did defecate sometime yesterday, a runny mess. Maybe the flagyl and Baytril contributed to that. I don't know. I'll feed it again today. Thanks all!
Paul
 
What if anything has the seller said about the sexing issue? Setting everything else aside, that alone entitles you to a refund. Has he addressed it?
 
This realy sucks,

I have been dealing with imports for around a year now, seen a few hundred, and only three looked like that. I can't even think of why anyone would ship a snake that bad off in the first place.I'm kinda of suprised it lived this long.Not only should you get all your money back(price,shipping,vet,) this breeder should be put out of business, if not for ripping this guy off, for taken such poor care of his snakes!!! Their is no reason for a snake like this to be sold, just no reason if he needed $2500 this bad, he has no right to be a breeder!!!


I'm sorry I cant tell you how mad I am at all this, I don't have the words to do that (incase you can't tell I can't spell) and I'm real sorry my first post in these froums is one like this. but man we got to do something about people like this.

If I had a pastel I'd give it you for free, but as of now I'm only working with retics, and burms.I'm just getting started, sorry but I will help you anyway I can to get this guy!!!!

Bruce.
 
There is no excuse for what has been done to you. I am truly sorry. There is not much i can say that has not been already.

No Terms would ever justify that crap.
Howard Ross
 
BAD BUSINESS

I dont usually get involved but this is just bad. I dont feel like this a disagreement between two people it is just Bad Business.

There are alot of people spending alot of money on ball python morphs and I for one hope this continues.

When you sell a animal.. sell a healthy animal...bottom line.

The 36 gram snake should never been shipped. The buyer just paid 2500 hundred dollars to buy this guys problem.

So now, the buyer is not only out the money but he will really think twice before putting down that much money on an animal. This transaction hurts all ball python breeders. These kind of deals will just end of killing this wonderful market.

If I was this buyer I'm getting a lawyer.

I for one will never buy anything from this jerk and neither will anyone of my friends, family or assoc.

Chris Delay......Send this guy a healthy female pastel and start doing business the right way or get out!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Tony Hurt
Snake Evolutions
 
AMEN!!

If I was this buyer I'm getting a lawyer.

I for one will never buy anything from this jerk and neither will anyone of my friends, family or assoc.

Chris Delay......Send this guy a healthy female pastel and start doing business the right way or get out!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Tony Hurt
Snake Evolutions
Click to expand...

Absolutely, this transaction is very well documented and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent.
This seller has no business being in this business.What a disgrace, how some one could have the balls to ship a snake like that is beyond me.

I for one would never send this guy a dime regardless of the outcome.Pathetic!

Tom Coonan
 
Sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with Chris. I have met he and his girlfriend a few times and had the pleasure to dine with hime and another friend Skip Nelson.

I would not expect to hear this about Chris and I am sure that something can be worked out between the 2 of you.

Good Luck and I hope the best for all parties involved!
 
Re: BAD BUSINESS

TONYHURT said:
.

If I was this buyer I'm getting a lawyer.

Tony Hurt
Snake Evolutions
Click to expand...

I'm new here and I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but the chances of finding a lawyer(who is not a personal friend) for an out of state $2500 case is not very good .

Just an unfortunate situation, which is not cost effective for either lawyer or client. :(

Lloyd Heilbrunn, Esq.
 
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