Bad Guy Chris Kopeckey - Bad Apple Reptiles 100% doublel HET did not prove out and then...

[yourbeat]

Im not really sure where to start here because i was honestly hoping that it wasn't going to come down to this, but here we go.

Last September is when i first had a talk with Chris about doing a possible trade. i had posted my Gen 3 Glock 23 in the classifieds for trade asking for a Adult female Hypo trans dragon of some variation. after talking back and forth through emails he then offered me the female which was supposed to be a dachiu hypo trans adult female unproven(she isnt the dragon in question here though) and he offered me a 2-3 month old 100% double het for hypo and trans red Italian leatherback.

I tossed the idea around in my head of selling this dragon or keeping it, i decided to keep it and work my future breeding plans all around this male. since then i acquired 2 more female dragons to pair with him one is another hypo trans female and the other was a hypo trans leather female. so i was banking on him proving out his 100% dbl hets to breed to all of my females.

At the time i was very happy with everything as it seemed to be going my way, i was happy with all my dragons there colors and genetics.

Now here is where the real issue begins with Chris and his lines and genetics. I bred his male to one of my visual hypo trans females (solid black eyes and 20 clear nails) so no question about her genetics...i was waiting out it and very much looking forward to my clutch hatching and having some nice hypo trans leathers/normal variations to both hold-back and sell.

After about the first 5-6 dragons hatched i called Tom Clarke who i consider a friend of mine and i keep in frequent contact with on almost a daily basis and let him know that none of my hatch-lings are proving out to be either hypo or trans let alone both. so tom told me to just relax a little bit wait the rest of the clutch out and have some faith and i would start to see some morphs.

Well after they were all done hatching out i had 16 dragons and not one single black eye clear nail or blue belly. so again i called tom let him know what was going on an he said to take a day to chill out an relax then approach Chris about it and hopefully he would make the situation right.

Which brings me to the next thing where Chris made me feel like an idiot again. his response to me telling him about the situation was "damn man my bad hopefully you get some good color out of the babys an still make some money". not a how can i make it up to you or anything just a my bad good luck on you selling them....

So again i called tom to tell him whats going on he tells me to let Chris know that's not acceptable and that he needed to do something to make it right giving his 100% dbl het animal was just completely proven to not be het AT ALL for nothing. hypo or trans....

So Chris was cool about it at first we talked it was calm and he offered me 2 deals. one deal was 2 dbl het adult males i could take and use, or a decent young leather-back female by herself.

I told Chris i don't have the room for males let alone the fact i don't trust anything he says about hets after being burnt by the one i got off of him in the first place. and that i would like to take the female because i could either keep her or sell her to make some money back so i can get an ACTUAL 100% dbl het male that i not only want but i need.

So i talk to tom about it and him being the nice guy he is offers me a nice deal on one of his dragons, so it was going to be Chris's red female leather he offered and some cash for toms hypo leather 100% het trans male...

Good to go right? wrong.....after sending Chris a text letting him know my plans. i wake up at 9 am to a text message saying we need to talk, i knew what it was about.

So that's when Chris tells me that he basically don't wanna let the female go because im thinking about selling it? really? it would be my dragon so wouldn't it be ok to do whatever i wanted to do with it?

Then he goes onto say if i do give her to you he wants some baby leather backs out of the clutch because she was his holdback...

Soo to sum this all up...he traded me a dragon lied about its genetics, then tells me a simple my bad, i ask him to make it right. then offered me a deal i take it....he then revokes that deal and says if we do go through with it...i owe him dragons from a clutch??

I cant be the only one who sees something wrong here?

Then he even had the audacity to try and flip it around on me and say he don't have an email where he told me it was a double het so i find the email in 5 seconds and forwarded his own 2 emails back to him. after he got them his response was "ok cool"....

I have been back and forth with him and realized its going no where with him and that's why i decided to post this here, im not looking to ruin anyone or there business, i was just trying to get something squared up on a bad deal....

He got everything i said he was getting with my gun, not one complaint, it was clean, mint condition, it shoots. he was happy...at least he got what he thought he was getting....now im just confused about what to do because lets face it quality dragons arent cheap and im not rich.

So now do i have to sell a male I've raised and based my whole project around, whom i also love as a pet and some how come up with extra money(if there is such a thing) just to get what i was promised to have last September....

I have all emails between me and Chris along with text messages we exchanged. some things were talked about on the phone but after the few calls i realized it was coming down to this and i would need all written proof or as much as possible....

I went to a well known reputable breeder and a all around good guy in tom Clarke followed his directions to a T and it still got me no where...

Im at a loss now on what to do with my breeding projects. Well not a loss, just a finical issue with finding what I need and for it to prove out. Am i just gonna have to cut my losses?

Hopefully this thread will help future buyers, i know he sells snakes and dragons. and hets that are 100% that do not prove out is a big deal. but i heard with snakes its even more serious.

IF there are any parts which seem hard to understand or maybe i worded them wrong please ask and let me know so i can try and clear it up as best as possible....


here is one of the emails where you said 100% double het hypo and trans....





On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 11:32 PM, anthony prosper <[email protected]> wrote:

hey whats up man, just wondering if you ever got around to finding the pics of this little guys parents and gettin his exact genetics, you were talkin about it before the hamburg show an i figured ya got a little busy. hit me up lemmie know how my babys doin an if ya shot it yet.

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Chris Kopecky <[email protected]>
To: anthony prosper <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, November 6, 2010 9:34:28 AM
Subject: Re: heyy

Dude I spaced it out for sure-my bad!
red ita lb/imoprted germen giant/satyrday red/cawley red hypo red flaming tiger X LL
so after that 100%het hypo 100% trans

 

[Revolution1221]

If you could it would really help to post all transactions between you two. E-mails, texts, pms, whatever. They will only help you. Hope you can get this worked out and get your project back on track.

 

[BMK.]

Anthony I offered to swap out males as this was as honest mistake. the original trade was for a female hypo trans, and as a good gesture I tossed in a red leather male, cause I was having a good season. total trade value of $600($500hypo-trans female) ($100 red leather)

After you already had him for a few months, and email me for details of genetics-I honestly forgot which clutch he was from and said I think it's a double het, then I said, I think its 100% hypo 50 trans...not knowing I had the clutches mixed up.

I understand your frustrated about it, and you need to know it was a mistake, and a mistake I'm willing to fix.

So I offered you another male double het adult male to swap out. You didn't like the way he looked, but he is a dbl het. I don't have a bunch of animals to replace him with as Im just a small time breeder, but focus on quality. You mentioned you might want a female I have one on site for $550, offered her to you at $200. Some how you thought it was free, or I owed you her for mix up. I said we need to talk cause when textin or email sometime people think they're talking about the same thing but soon find out they're on two different pages. no big deal, easy fix.

This is my first time dealing with this so, if it didn't go smooth, my bad, I figured we could work it out. Last night at 11:30pm you email me asking what I wanted to do about this, I replied swap out males, we can work it out. I'm not being rude if I don't reply tonight as Im going to bed......and here we are now....

what is it you'd like see done to resolve this matter Anthony?

what about this email.

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Chris Kopecky <[email protected]>
To: anthony prosper <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, November 6, 2010 9:34:28 AM
Subject: Re: heyy


Dude I spaced it out for sure-my bad!
red ita lb/imoprted germen giant/satyrday red/cawley red hypo red flaming tiger X LL
so after that 100%het hypo 50% trans
ha I still havent shot it yet, but one of these days, one of these days...ha ha

Chris Kopecky

 

[Focal]

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Chris Kopecky <[email protected]>
To: anthony prosper <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, November 6, 2010 9:34:28 AMSubject: Re: heyy

Dude I spaced it out for sure-my bad!
red ita lb/imoprted germen giant/satyrday red/cawley red hypo red flaming tiger X LL
so after that 100%het hypo 100% trans

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Chris Kopecky <[email protected]>
To: anthony prosper <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, November 6, 2010 9:34:28 AM
Subject: Re: heyy


Dude I spaced it out for sure-my bad!
red ita lb/imoprted germen giant/satyrday red/cawley red hypo red flaming tiger X LL
so after that 100%het hypo 50% transha I still havent shot it yet, but one of these days, one of these days...ha ha

OK, which one of you two are editing emails?

 

[aleria]

I'd say a screenshot of the actual emails with headers is in order now.

 

[Focal]

Hold CRTL
Hit PrtScn
Open Paint or MS Word
Hold CRTL
Hit "V"
Save
Close
Upload

 

[David Scarboro]

OK, which one of you two are editing emails?

Good Catch! This is about to get interesting!!!

 

[Revolution1221]

Anthony I offered to swap out males as this was as honest mistake. the original trade was for a female hypo trans, and as a good gesture I tossed in a red leather male, cause I was having a good season. total trade value of $600($500hypo-trans female) ($100 red leather)

After you already had him for a few months, and email me for details of genetics-I honestly forgot which clutch he was from and said I think it's a double het, then I said, I think its 100% hypo 50 trans...not knowing I had the clutches mixed up.

I understand your frustrated about it, and you need to know it was a mistake, and a mistake I'm willing to fix.

So I offered you another male double het adult male to swap out. You didn't like the way he looked, but he is a dbl het. I don't have a bunch of animals to replace him with as Im just a small time breeder, but focus on quality. You mentioned you might want a female I have one on site for $550, offered her to you at $200. Some how you thought it was free, or I owed you her for mix up. I said we need to talk cause when textin or email sometime people think they're talking about the same thing but soon find out they're on two different pages. no big deal, easy fix.

This is my first time dealing with this so, if it didn't go smooth, my bad, I figured we could work it out. Last night at 11:30pm you email me asking what I wanted to do about this, I replied swap out males, we can work it out. I'm not being rude if I don't reply tonight as Im going to bed......and here we are now....

what is it you'd like see done to resolve this matter Anthony?

what about this email.

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Chris Kopecky <[email protected]>
To: anthony prosper <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, November 6, 2010 9:34:28 AM
Subject: Re: heyy


Dude I spaced it out for sure-my bad!
red ita lb/imoprted germen giant/satyrday red/cawley red hypo red flaming tiger X LL
so after that 100%het hypo 50% trans
ha I still havent shot it yet, but one of these days, one of these days...ha ha
Chris Kopecky

Why if he got a beardie at $500 and you screwed up would he need to now pay you $200 for one you have priced at $550? Seems to me he should have got that female for $50 or if he still wanted to keep the male he got duped on possibly $100.

That is a pretty big mistake to sell something as het when infact it is not. That mistake has set dude back pretty far now in what he was going for with his project. And now has a bunch of babies that he wasn't expecting to be the way they are.

 

[Pasodama]

What was the trade value in this deal?

Anthony I offered to swap out males as this was as honest mistake. the original trade was for a female hypo trans, and as a good gesture I tossed in a red leather male, cause I was having a good season. total trade value of $600($500hypo-trans female) ($100 red leather)

Are you saying the male was a "freebie" and not part of the trade value in this deal?

After you already had him for a few months, and email me for details of genetics-I honestly forgot which clutch he was from and said I think it's a double het, then I said, I think its 100% hypo 50 trans...not knowing I had the clutches mixed up.

Do you keep records on the animals you produce?

 

[BMK.]

I think the main issue is that I will swap out the male who didn't prove out with a dbl het leather male adult if Anthony wants to.
As this is an easy fix but has become confusing at this point.

 

[dragonluver83]

Anthony I offered to swap out males as this was as honest mistake. the original trade was for a female hypo trans, and as a good gesture I tossed in a red leather male, cause I was having a good season. total trade value of $600($500hypo-trans female) ($100 red leather)

I am confused on this.. Anthony says. The two dragons were part of the deal and if they were not together he would NOT have taken the deal.

After you already had him for a few months, and email me for details of genetics-I honestly forgot which clutch he was from and said I think it's a double het, then I said, I think its 100% hypo 50 trans...not knowing I had the clutches mixed up.

So to clarify for myself and others... The trade was the gun for the female hypo trans and the 100% double het leatherback male.

THEN AFTER the trade you realize that its NOT 100% double het its 100% het hypo and only 50% het trans... See Chris thats where the problem can is. You sold him a 100% double het then AFTER the trade you tell him its not a 100% double het...

So I offered you another male double het adult male to swap out.

Chris,

Would you want another 100% double het from you? didnt the dragon also prove out to be NOT HET HYPO also???

You didn't like the way he looked, but he is a dbl het.

Yes you offered him a lesser quality dragon. again that was a supposed double het?

I don't have a bunch of animals to replace him with

But you had the female that you offered him, THEN later retracted the offer. Then offering him the male that was at a lesser quality than he wanted.

as Im just a small time breeder, but focus on quality.

Dont you post b dragons AND snakes in the classifieds??? Being a seller, (you know "bad apple reptiles") there wasnt a decent offer you could put on the table for your customer???

The guy traded/bought a misrepresented animal. It didnt prove out to be het hypo or trans???

What if he traded you that gun and it didnt fire? OR there was another problem with the gun, that was un fixable?

You mentioned you might want a female I have one on site for $550, offered her to you at $200. Some how you thought it was free, or I owed you her for mix up. I said we need to talk cause when textin or email sometime people think they're talking about the same thing but soon find out they're on two different pages. no big deal, easy fix.

This is where IM confused? There did seem to be clear communication. OR someone isnt telling the truth!

This is my first time dealing with this so, if it didn't go smooth, my bad, I figured we could work it out. Last night at 11:30pm you email me asking what I wanted to do about this, I replied swap out males, we can work it out. I'm not being rude if I don't reply tonight as Im going to bed......and here we are now....

He claims it is a lesser quality animal than his. I can understand him not wanting another "het" from you. But is it a lesser quality dragon like he exclaimed?

what is it you'd like see done to resolve this matter Anthony?

what about this email.

----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Chris Kopecky <[email protected]>
To: anthony prosper <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, November 6, 2010 9:34:28 AM
Subject: Re: heyy


Dude I spaced it out for sure-my bad!
red ita lb/imoprted germen giant/satyrday red/cawley red hypo red flaming tiger X LL
so after that 100%het hypo 50% trans
ha I still havent shot it yet, but one of these days, one of these days...ha ha

Chris Kopecky[/QUOTE]

 

[dragonluver83]

sorry i hit post instead of preview i wasnt done?

Is there a picture of the animal in trade?

 

[yourbeat]

Ok first off chris lets add up my guns value and what i put into it as opposed to your dragons since evidently you gave me this male for free?
NIB Glock 23 .40-550$
trijicon night sights-80$
extended slide release-25$
extended mag release-20$
3 mags- 75$
this gun was mint with no wear and tear except for the slight silver showing from my holster wear, i didn't lie about anything on my gun, Period.
i was happy with our deal BUT that was certainly not a freebie, you came to me with an offer of the female plus the male at what point does that make it a freebie?

We talked on the phone and you told me i could HAVE FOR FREE either 2 males or the one female in question...you call your males "third world ugly" in our texts...hmm yeah defff want some of them dragons, ugly and the breeder doesn't even know his animals genetics?

on the other topics i would loveeee to post all of our texts on here where i say ill take your offer of that female red leather and your response is quote"ok sounds good man when do you want to get her" that was after you told me on the phone you just wanna make this right blah blah. So the next morning i get your text that says call me bro we need to talk so i do and boom female offer is off the market. i will agree chris last week when you asked me to find you some buyers for dragons and cages before all my babys hatched you told me 200$ for the female....after i came to you about all this you offered her FOR FREE to me..

the bad thing is that i did trust you so i did talk on the phone with you but now i know why, you wanted less and less of a paper trail that's why you always asked me to call bc it was easier...and this is why i started telling you no i want to text or email.

by the way you didn't tell me the exact genetics of the little guy before the trade you just said 100% red dbl het leather...then in November when i WAS STILL BUGGING YOU FOR HIS GENETICS, THEN I GET AN EMAIL STATING ITS 50% het trans.....either way your 100% hypo proved out to be a lie, 50% trans also didn't pan out...either way you slice it you got everything you wanted out of our deal and i got beat....


if you want to keep it rolling im telling you now i have every text and email and i will show exactly how you twist and change everything you say ebery other day so your gonna be the one who looks like a clown in the end...i gave you days to fix it you gave me an offer then took it back offered me your trash male and then kept offering me something i straight up didn't want, which you wouldn't get through your head...

i have a Samsung Transform android 2.2 someone please let me know how to get the texts on here without looking altered or i can forward you all of my texts between chris and I, you can post it. either way i got them just need to know how to get them on here...

here is the "3rd world ugly" male chris offered and admits to me is so ugly, so why would i want it??? and its het, why would i want another het from chris?

 

[yourbeat]

the point of this wasn't to get something out of you chris, its for future buyers who go to you and bank on your hets proving out, now they know this has happened and can make there own mind up on buying from you...i posted this because i realized you were running in circles and offering me ugly trash males i dont want, you offered me a female on day one of talking about it i accepted then you backed out. i didn't do this to get something out of you. i did this so when people do a search on you they hear my story, thats the point of the BOI...i hate getting into these BOI Battles but for the sake of the future buyers and breeders, i think they should know how you casually mix up your breeding's and genetics and then say "my bad"....

 

[JSchup]

The main issue right now seems to be the discrepancy between your two email quotes (100 or 50 percent het.). Post screen shots of the emails before anything else is discussed or this is simply a waste of time, IMO.

 

[2kdime]

Way I see it is the trade was for the female dragon and the gun

Got a freebie male whose genetics didnt prove out

Chris offered up a male to replace his honest mistake

It wasnt good enough for you, end of story.

This guy shouldnt have any obligation to you, to get you in on another project or to give you a dragon for free just so you can trade it off to another breeder to get another dragon you want. Thats just silly.

The problem here is with the male dragon and the male dragon alone. It didnt prove out, you dont want to trade him for another one, what else do you want from the guy?

 

[yourbeat]

im working on it, im on my cell phone ill have to do that when i get home....but i dont see how thats the only thing wrong here? how bout the 100% het hypo quote not proving out...are we just ignoring that?

 

[yourbeat]

2kdime: i dont know what your reading....what part of this entire thing was it said to be a free dragon he offered me both dragons for my firearm which included all the above things i posted...which he recieved all of it, let me try and clear this up
IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM WAS THIS DRAGON FREE, WHAT SO EVER.....i dont want to have to keep repeating myself about it even though i most likely will have to do.

 

[yourbeat]

and for the record i have the text from chris where he tells me " i went through all my emails and i dont have any about telling you hes het" which is why I sent him BOTH of his emails back to show him not once but twice did he tell me that the male was a double het, but he muffed up his on genetics in 2 separate emails

 

[lanceheads]

Do either one of you live in the same city/state?