Cindy Chicvara -aka- Dragonlady58 - take a pass!

[critical bill]

Given that fact, from her point of view, she would have thought that the animals were being shipped on the 2nd, or at least on the 3rd. Of course we know that they were not and could not have been because of the weather. But because she had not received notification from you (I'm still unclear as to whether there were no emails sent or that they were and bounced back) what was she to think?

If she were thinking anything, wouldn't she think to email me to find out what happened?

For example Mike.....Cindy stated this in one email I included above.

"Still anxiously awaiting the new kids on the block. I should expect delivery on 1/03/06, Tuesday? Please confirm when you know. I will be sure to check my email Monday night to make sure they made it."

That was part of her email sent on Saturday, 12/30. When I had not confirmed because our internet was up and down...did she ever think to email me again when she hadn't heard back from me? Her first inclination was to assume this was a case of fraud and thought to make a stern stance by trying to intimidate me. God bless her...she's a woman that wont be rolled over.

The bottom line is this woman's replies were sloppy. My weather was sloppy. It was the holidays and she was notified that all shipment were suspended until 1/2/06 (of which I didn't realize was an official holiday). All of these things figured into the mix and made for a bad presentation.

BUT.....she did not have the right to start off her email accusing me of being some deadbeat and threatening me. All she had to do was ask me what happened and if she found my explanation to be unsatisfactory...request a refund.

I don't see this going down any differently with her if I had been able to communicate with her on the day of shipping. I firmly believe her patience was tried, tested, and broken when I told her I suspended all shipping during the holidays. Patience is something she'll just have to learn.

 

[critical bill]

Chuck

No contact with her is necessary. Simply go to PayPal and reverse the transaction.....end of problem.

I'm done doing any work on my end. PayPal can notify me and I'll just click yes to the refund. You dont pee on my leg and then ask me for a light. No way, dont smoke.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Hey Chuck

Always appreciate your posts in the BOI, always inciteful, and sometimes enjoying a good well-intended laugh from them !! granted Cindy was out-of-line, but there are a couple of things to point in this incident.

1) UPS seems to have taken it down from their website now, but they did have a holiday schedule posted there. They are my regular carrier, and I had to work around it. They were officially closed as a company on both the 26th and the 2nd for all but the highest priority category (I think it was "expedite", but am not certain). What I am sure of was that regular pick-ups, and services such as Next Day Air were not available. I am completely certain of that, as I had to notify some customers of shipments working around those days. That the UPS person on the phone was not too well informed is no surprise, and as Rich noted, avoiding the holiday season has its merit. My regular UPS guy warned me as the system is full of so many temps over the holidays.

2) This woman was not a good customer. But I think that you let yourself sink a bit to her level. Just one quote from you:

Force me to tell you through my attorney and your $195 will be used for that expense with any additional balance being billed to you. If you think I'm joking just do try me once and I'll make you my pet project for 2006.

Now you know that is folly, and just blowing steam !! It makes me laugh too, cause I know how you felt !!

I hope you had plenty of good moments in your holidays !! You did catch a live one though !!

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

I'm done doing any work on my end. PayPal can notify me and I'll just click yes to the refund. You dont pee on my leg and then ask me for a light. No way, dont smoke.

Definitely your call to make Chuck but bear in mind that while she overeacted out of nervousness, your current stance is simply a way to "teach her a lesson". That is, in my opinion, petty and simply bad business.

She reacted badly, you are reacting worse.

Just my .02

 

[GuinnyOne]

Chuck, I know I haven't been around long...but I have read through many threads on the BOI and have spent the time reading through this thread.

And as I was going about some chores this afternoon, something popped into my beady little brain.

I was thinking about The Grapes of Wrath by John Steinbeck. I don't remember any exact quotes and it has been many, many years since I have read this book. But I was remembering an idea put forth by Steinbeck. He wrote about old oak trees in a storm vs. willows. How the willows would weather a storm a better because of their ability to bend with the harsh winds. And the old oaks, being sturdy, and hard, would not bend. The oaks would be more likely to break eventually in a harsh storm.

The relevance? I believe that the 'storm' in this case would represent this particular incident. And you can either choose to be an old oak (sturdy and set in your ways) or you can choose to be a willow (able to bend).

I believe, as others have already said, that you should simply refund her money without her going through paypal and filing a claim. I believe that if you could bend in this matter, that your reputation and integrity would far better surpass this storm than if you choose to continue with you current stance. Not that this single incident would damage your reputation by any means. But more that it would just make you come out of this storm in a much taller manner.

Not sure that makes sense. I tried to word it as best I could. But I have actually put a bit of thought into this.

Sincerely, Kelly Johnson

 

[Mike Greathouse]

Kelly,

He wrote about old oak trees in a storm vs. willows. How the willows would weather a storm a better because of their ability to bend with the harsh winds. And the old oaks, being sturdy, and hard, would not bend. The oaks would be more likely to break eventually in a harsh storm.

Well put - this statement could probably be applied to a large percentage of the posts on the BOI.

Thank you

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

And you can either choose to be an old oak (sturdy and set in your ways) or you can choose to be a willow (able to bend).

Excellent sentiment Kelly

There is a similar quote from Sun Tsu that fits well her too

"If a war can't be won....don't fight it"

Chuck. In this "war" there is absolutely nothing for you to win.

 

[critical bill]

The relevance? I believe that the 'storm' in this case would represent this particular incident. And you can either choose to be an old oak (sturdy and set in your ways) or you can choose to be a willow (able to bend).

Thank you for your contribution to the thread. You dont need to be here any length of time to share your opinion with me, youre always welcome.

I'm a sturdy oak, I've weathered fine in all elements because of my fair side. No wind is capable of snapping me becuase I know eactly when to shed my leaves as the strong winds arrive. I admire the willows, but what the winds cant snap...they'll eventually blow them from the ground. My roots are way too strong for that stuff.

I believe, as others have already said, that you should simply refund her money without her going through paypal and filing a claim. I believe that if you could bend in this matter, that your reputation and integrity would far better surpass this storm than if you choose to continue with you current stance. Not that this single incident would damage your reputation by any means. But more that it would just make you come out of this storm in a much taller manner.

Not sure that makes sense. I tried to word it as best I could. But I have actually put a bit of thought into this.

It makes perfect sense, Kelly, and I wish I were in a position to better help her. But she doesn't need me to do her leg work. She can do the leg work for a refund through PayPal and its a lesson learned. However petty thats my stance. I started this post not prove anyone wrong or right, certainly I'm dead wrong in all this for considering a shipment through the holidays without first contacting UPS to check the schedule. Whether its UPS's fault or a freak storms fault, I assume responsibility for all wrong. But no one, no one, is going to get a free shot at threatening me, lying to me, and implying I'm a deadbeat, and then ask me for a refund that they can easily file for themselves. I am no ones fool. This ain't baseball with three strikes and you're out. Twice she's contacted me for a refund and twice she had the chance to simply ask for it and leave her stupid comments for another time.

I'm not trying to learn her or take her to school on this, but certainly if she learns something from this it could be to watch her tone in the future. After all....she's going to be somebody's customer again....that I'm sure of.

 

[critical bill]

Geesh my spelling stinks....sorry.

 

[coyote]

I have earthlink and I do utilize the spam blocker. Still, even though an email may not be allowed into the regular email box, It is not lost, it gets re-routed into a "suspect" email box. When I know that I might be receiving emails from someone not on my list, and the communication will only be temporary rather than ongoing, I know to check the suspect list everytime I check my email. Few people that I have one time transactions with want to make the request to be allowed into the regular email. I can always find them via the suspect box.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Chuck,

I'll have to side with the opinions of the rest. The right thing to do would be to PayPal her money and forget about this transaction. If later on you decide to put her in your "not to do business with list" so be it, but you should return her money promptly. Besides look at it from her perspective too, she didn't hear from you for a while, and she became somewhat anxious. Less than 24 hours after the auction ended, you sent an e-mail notifying her you might be relisting the item and leaving negative feedback.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck
To: [email protected]
Sent: 12/20/2005 6:42:31 AM
Subject: Fw: Re: Reptile Auction Winner Invoice


We need to hear from you soon before the auction item is re-listed and negative feedback left. Please contact us immediately to confirm your order.

Thank You,
Chuck
A Keepers Choice

-------Original Message-------

From: Chuck
Date: 12/19/05 15:48:44
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Reptile Auction Winner Invoice


Hello Cindy,

Congratulations on your winning bid. Below is your total now due along with our PayPal address to submit payment. Once your payment is received we can schedule a date for shipping. Currently with the holidays at hand my next shipping date is Monday 12/26. If you have any questions regarding the auction please feel free to email me.

 

[kmurphy]

People don't use phones enough anymore. I know there is a need to have a written record but some oral communication may have gone a long way here.

 

[ms_terese]

Chuck, are there emails that we haven't seen informing her about the delays after 1/2/06?

I guess that the industry being what it is, people get anxious about rip-offs and scams maybe sooner than they used to. It's the seller's job to make sure the customer is reassured appropriately throughout the process if the seller has delays. If the buyer was having good weather on her end, it's really not her job to check the weather on your end to anticipate whether or not shipping is realistic. She should be able to rely on your shipping expertise to get them to her unless you inform her differently.

Furthermore, she has requested a refund from you on 1/4/06. She shouldn't have to request it from PayPal.

You yourself said she paid within a day of winning the auction, and she seemed extremely pleasant in her communications until the one from 1/4/06. It sounds like your inability to deliver the animals on at least 2 dates you had given her was what caused her to become accusatory and request a refund. If she's confused your purchase with another (hence the 2 months and the amounts), that's not unforgiveable. The fact remains that she did everything she was supposed to do, and you were unable to deliver on your end. To make her go through PayPal now is both petty and unprofessional.

I agree that a phone call would have gone a long way to keep this transaction amicable.

 

[dzoo]

I can assure you though that there will be no further delays. Should UPS not arrive at my facility to pickup by 12pm on 1/2/06 as they have promised, I will personally drive the 90 minutes to the UPS main hub and process your package in person.

Not to be critical, Bill, but a quick search reveals several UPS outlets closer than 90 minutes away.

THE UPS STORE (1.3 miles)
413 ROUTE 940
MOUNT POCONO, PA 18344
570-839-8010

AUTHORIZED SHIPPING OUTLET (1.0 miles)
NORTHEAST PACK AND SHIP CENTER
RT 940 MT POCONO PLZ
MOUNT POCONO, PA 18344
570-895-1000

UPS CUSTOMER CENTER (11.5 miles)
STAFFED LOCATION
2129 ROCKDALE LANE
STROUDSBURG, PA 18360
800-742-5877

Also, I agree with others when she requested a refund, go to paypal, click refund and its over.

 

[reptiler ron]

Chuck just a quick note. Fla. laws do not allow the buying,selling,or even let you posses any eastern box turtles. Ron Unruh

 

[dzoo]

Depending on the origin, PA restricts the sale as well

Our regulations require that with the exception of common snapping turtles, no reptile or amphibian may be taken from the wild in PA for sale, trade or barter. Also, it unlawful to possess, import or export species listed as endangered or threatened by the Fish and Boat Commission. For species not taken from the wild but which may occur in PA, a dealer or purchaser would need to obtain and maintain the proper documentation to show that the origin of an animal was from a legal source and not taken from the wild.

 

[Mike Greathouse]

Great point Ron, that's something all of us overlooked in this deal.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Ron,
You may be correct, as I haven't looked at the text version of the law on it in some time. But when my Florida Division of Wildlife (don't recall exact title) inspecter was out here doing his routine a few months ago, I had a locally caught box turtle that had been rescued by a neighbor from her dog, so I inquired. The inspector told me that I was allowed two ! Maybe Cindy is acting on the same info that I was given, but again, I have not researched the letter-of-the-law.
As for the "90 minutes to the UPS hub", I think there was a touch of some sarcasm intended by Chuck, as the main hub may be 90 minutes away, with smaller stations and UPS stores closer by. Maybe kind of like saying "I'll eat my hat" etc

 

[Chameleon Company]

Just did a quick check on the box turtle here in Florida. According to the current Florida Wildlife Commission list, the box turtle is not listed as Endangered, Threatened, or a species of special concern (SSC). Those are the categories that would cause a red-flag. I have not yet found the statute that would support what I was told by the inspector, but assume it is a blanket one limiting the keeper to a modest amount of local WC critters. Would welcome further info on it, but I have better things to do. Could you cite the reference Ron? Thanks.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Found some more info

To clarify, here is what Ron posted:

Chuck just a quick note. Fla. laws do not allow the buying,selling,or even let you posses any eastern box turtles.

And here is the text from the 2005-2006 Florida Hunting Guide:

Possession limits for turtles and eggs: river cooters - two; alligator snapping turtles - one; loggerhead musk turtles - two; box turtles - two; Barbour’s map turtles - two; Escambia River map turtles - two; diamondback terrapins - two. No one may buy, sell or possess for sale alligator snapping turtles, box turtles, Barbour’s map turtles, river cooters, loggerhead musk turtles, Escambia River map turtles, diamondback terrapins or parts thereof.

So, my interpretation would be that possession of up to two is certainly allowed, providing that they are not being offered for sale. It does say that you cannot "buy" them. However, I am confident that any attorney would find that clause likely unenforceable, as it certainly allows you to catch them, accept them as gifts, etc, or at least extremely low on the radar. Hate to make this parallel though, as it is ironic, but kind of reminds me of prostitution (where the law does take the selling of sex quite seriously). If its free, its OK, but don't be paying for it !! I do lean Libertarian, and box turtles and prostitution are part of the reason why !! LOL