Cindy Chicvara -aka- Dragonlady58 - take a pass!

[The BoidSmith]

Jim,

Maybe I'm not reading it right but here is what you just posted:

No one may buy, sell or possess for sale alligator snapping turtles, box turtles, Barbour’s map turtles, river cooters, loggerhead musk turtles, Escambia River map turtles, diamondback terrapins or parts thereof.

It seems that the text clearly states that you are not supposed to "buy, sell, or possess for sale". Mi interpretation is that the only pair that you are allowed to have is that one you collected yourself or was given to you.

Regards.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Chuck, I know you are a good-guy... we have done business in the past and it was a real pleasure! I enjoyed every aspect of the transaction, especially the communication, and hope we can do business again in the future.

But, had the transaction gone sour for any reason and you demanded a refund for whatever the reason, I would very simply go to PayPal and issue it immediately... and be done with it. As breeders, our time and energy is just too valuable to waste on lousy customers.

 

[Chameleon Company]

Dan, this is approaching off-topic,

But here's what I stated as my interpretation:

.... it (the statute) certainly allows you to catch them, accept them as gifts, etc

And here's what you posted as your interpretation:

Maybe I'm not reading it right ...... Mi interpretation is that the only pair that you are allowed to have is that one you collected yourself or was given to you.

I believe that your interpretation and mine are inter-changeable. Do you disagree? I then went on to render an opinion as to where this might be on the radar down here, as I do live here and do interact with the Florida Game Commission, and have done so specifically with an Inspector on my property with regard to box turtles. I applaud Florida for not being as inflexible as some northern states (to include PA), where I speak with authority as I have lived and dealt reptiles in northern states. My opinion is that Florida has written the laws so as to be able to prosecute what they would interpret as exploitation of native fauna, but not to the point of being anal about it. I was also pointing out an inaccuracy made in another post that cited the law. Got it now?

 

[The BoidSmith]

Jim,

Got it! And you are right.

Regards.

 

[Chameleon Company]

No problem ! I do confess to being more curious as to the exact status of vending box turtles from PA location, since it was raised. Not only do the laws vary enormously from state to state, but so does their enforcement, or better put, where they place emphasis on enforcement. We have seen many threads here in the BOI where issues concerning ignorance to the law arise which were not the intent of the thread starter, or a contributor. Classic examples have been the shipping of venemous reptiles, snakes via USPS and other carriers, etc. It is no secret that USF&W monitors many animal classified and forum sites, and have made significant busts based on info gathered therein. Changing times continuously, for sure, for I can remember as a kid catching box turtles in great quantity in MD, and having friends ship me indigo snakes from Florida (got my first in 1969). Getting back to topic, it seems that a transacton invloving the purchase and shipping of two box turtles from PA to FL may have greater problems than the timeliness of payment, of shipping, and a bit of name-calling ! I no longer have any Indigos either.

 

[Chameleon Company]

OK, I pursued the question ..

So I did some research on my self-imposed lunch break. Here's a quote from the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission, the regulatory agency governing PA wildlife:

Current regulations: Currently, regulations for box turtles and all reptiles and amphibians not listed as endangered, threatened or candidate in Pennsylvania are as follows: there is a daily and maximum possession limit of two box turtles. It is unlawful to sell, offer for sale, import or export for consideration, trade or barter, or purchase an amphibian or reptile, whether dead or alive, in whole or in parts, including eggs or any lifestage (except for common snapping turtles) that was taken, caught or killed in this Commonwealth.

Here is a link to the entire page about box turtles: http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/Fish_Boat/qbox.htm

To the credit of PA, that page goes to some length to say that they are OK with curious kids catching and keeping box turtles. They also mention concern about the export of box turtles from their state, and their status as a CITES II animal. Far more research could be done regarding any possible fine print with regard to permit exceptions, proof of acquisition, etc. The above quote would seem to allow box turtles from outside the state of PA to be imported, although there seems to be ambiguity in saying that you cannot "import .... reptiles ..... taken caught or killed in this Commonwealth". It is certainly something for PA folks to be concerned about, and this Florida person has allowed his curiosity to take him away from his own work for today.

 

[critical bill]

The two box turtles in question were both purchased from a private collector in South Carolina several years back. Any animal I have in my possession has a receipt or some form of documentation of its collection origin to accompany it. Copies of those documents are available to any customer that would ask for it or require it. The records are also available for review to the FGW or any other agency that might wish to review them.

As far as Cindy is concerned.....

I offered her a refund twice nicely and she demanded a refund twice rudely.

When she can ask for a refund without all the unneeded insults and rudeness I'll cooperate with her. If she cant, and it seems she wont, she can go about filing with PayPal to request the refund and I'll comply with them.

This isn't about torturing Cindy for her refund. I am refusing my help, which she really doesn't need to begin with, in light of her rudeness and inability to apologize sincerely for the way she treated me. Its that simple.

I respect each and everyone of your opinions. I value them, truly I do. I wouldn't be here as a member, minding my P's and Q's, changing my tone drastically from what it once was, if I didn't value them. But if any of you had said the same thing to me in an email that Cindy did...I would be doing the same thing to you right now. If that serves as a warning for any particular individual to steer clear of me, then its an admission to me that that person would do the same as Cindy under similar situation. In that case..I did myself a great service.

Sorry guys but thats all I have to add to this thread I started. Certainly your all welcome to add your thoughts to it, and being familiar with BOI threads....I'll visit back when it takes a spin, a month from now, to discuss the price of pizza in Peoria.

 

[Lucille]

When she can ask for a refund without all the unneeded insults and rudeness I'll cooperate with her. If she cant, and it seems she wont, she can go about filing with PayPal to request the refund and I'll comply with them.

. Certainly your all welcome to add your thoughts to it, and being familiar with BOI threads....I'll visit back when it takes a spin, a month from now, to discuss the price of pizza in Peoria.

I really do think courteous service can be offered despite an anxious customer and certainly how you respond says something about you.

I can attest that when there is conflict, if one person is soothing and problem solving, the other person likely will de escalate, in fact that concept is taught and encouraged in many professional settings;
many times those who complain are asking for validation of their feelings and if this is received the entire tone of the exchange instantly improves.

It costs nothing and helps everyone when one acts in a manner that will recognize the feelings of the other person and then courteously take steps to improve the situation.

 

[dzoo]

I still do not understand why, when UPS was unable or unwilling to come do a pick up at your business, the package was not simply taken to a UPS drop off location on 12/27 and sent, as promised, to the customer? It is only due to your unwillingness to ship as promised that the customer became irate. Is driving 1 to 11 miles not worth making your buyer satisfied?

THE UPS STORE (1.3 miles)
413 ROUTE 940
MOUNT POCONO, PA 18344
570-839-8010

AUTHORIZED SHIPPING OUTLET (1.0 miles)
NORTHEAST PACK AND SHIP CENTER
RT 940 MT POCONO PLZ
MOUNT POCONO, PA 18344
570-895-1000



UPS CUSTOMER CENTER (11.5 miles)
STAFFED LOCATION
2129 ROCKDALE LANE
STROUDSBURG, PA 18360
800-742-5877

 

[varnyard]

I am from Florida as well. I had a box turtle on the auction on Reptile-auction a month or so back. I know you remember that Gulf coast box turtle I had Chuck. I was not aware of the law here on box turtles. During the auction someone made a comment on the Q and A's on that auction. I did the research and found the same info posted here. I stopped the auction at that point, and the turtle was given away. I no longer trade or buy box turtles at all, due to the laws in place here in the state of Florida.
As for Chuck, I have known you for a while, and we have fought many scammers. I also respect you and your thoughts, but why in the world would you let someone like this hurt your reputation? It is just not worth it! I realize she got smart with you, but she is not worth all of this effort. I have had this type in the trade, they try to pressure you into instant pudding. But if it cannot be shipped for whatever reason, than I still try to make them happy. IMO it is not worth the negative feedback. I also use my phone, they seem to respond to an actual voice better than an email, should a problem arise. I also do not pull funds from Paypal until the shipment has arrived and the customer is happy. As the old saying goes (the customer is always right) well maybe not, but they can sure hurt you by word of mouth. They can also help the same way. It is real easy to send the funds back. I have been fortunate in that I have not had to do this but once. I had a white oak rat escape from a cage after someone won the bid. I called the bidder and returned the funds. I did not find it for a month. I called the bidder back and sold it to them then, with no harm done. Chuck the point I am trying to make is, just hit the button and return the funds. It is hard to deal with people like this, but you just cannot let them get to you. Causing her to wait on the return will hurt you more than her. This is your business, and you are the seller. She will buy from someone else and move on. But she can hurt you more than you may realize. Just remember this, when you look at someone’s feedback, what is the first thing you look at? It is the negative feedback, not the positive. Regardless of the positive, you will look at the negative first.
It helps to be more like a duck, and just let that water run off your back instead of letting it soak in. I am not saying do not stand up for yourself, but more like keeping your thoughts towards future trades, and not letting people like this get to you, they just are not worth it. Chuck, this is just my opinion. Do as you wish, because it is 100% totally up to you.

 

[coyote]

368 Posts on a thread about Adam of Millennium Morphs standing on principle. 368 posts where a majority soundly chastised Adam for "jerking" his dissatisfied buyer (Matt Crabe) around regarding a refund.

Pride goeth before a fall.

So, am I the only one who sees similarities in these two situations?

 

[liquidleaf]

I can understand how this customer's comments would rub a seller the wrong way... but if she demanded a refund, no matter how politely, or how uncivilized, she demanded, it is due to her. In my opinion, the buyer overreacted to the delay (saying 2 months when 2 months had not passed)..... but that doesn't mean you should drag your feet in refunding her money. You don't have to grovel to customers, but if both you and she agree that the money should be refunded, you'd show yourself to be the more professional one if you had just refunded the money voluntarily.

Just my opinion, but my response to her rudeness would have been "I am sorry that you are unhappy with this transaction. I regret that UPS had a lapse in their normal pickup schedule due to holiday overload, but did attempt to keep you informed about this delay. In any case, my apologies that this transaction did not conclude to your satifsaction, your money will be refunded as soon as possible."

Being cool and detached is sometimes the only way to deal with some kinds of customers... no matter what they say or do. If you answer someone with a polite but less emotional response, as others have said earlier, they probably will calm down in turn. Even if you take offense to her language, she's still unhappy with the delay... so to be a professional businessperson, it would be the best response just to issue it and be done with it. The response that "I was going to give her the money back, but she was so rude, now she has to wait until Paypal forces the refund" seems a bit childish to me. You're the professional....

 

[critical bill]

Latest emails from Cindy....

Cindy has taken the time to request her refund through PayPal as I instructed. Although this was sufficient enough, and she didnt need to email me anymore with any further nonsense, and even after I requested she not email me again anymore with any nonsense, she did. Also attached at top is my reply to her.

It would seem she copied (CC) Mike Greathouse on these emails...so perhaps he can elaborate further on the matter.

-----------------------------------------------
From: "Chuck" <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Refund Request
Your request for a refund through PayPal has been received. Please be aware that while I would like to review and process your refund immediately, unfortunately I will not be available over the next seven days to do so. PayPal has granted me ten days to comply with your request and I will just as soon as I return.

Chuck
A Keepers Choice

---------------------------------------------------
From: "C. Chicvara" <[email protected]>
To: "Chuck" <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Fw: Re: Reptile Auction Winner Invoice
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 21:51:59 -0800
I requested the refund from you but I will happily notify PayPal that the goods were never shopped as promised and you agreed to refund my money. As for your chat group, good luck creating "good business" while being disrespectful to honest buyers. I waited around for over three weeks and your communications were poor. Live with it. Would you like me to publish your entire correspondence with me. I am sorry because I believe your turtles lost out on a wonderful warm weather home. I don't believe UPS doesn't ship during the holidays since I received and sent many shipments at that time without delay.

I never called you dishonest. I guess you looked in the mirror...

C. Chicvara
[email protected]
http://home.earthlink.net/~caninelove
----------------------------------------

 

[Mike Greathouse]

I'm afraid that I cannot elaborate on it.
The email she sent me (probably the same one Chuck received) had Chuck listed as a CC.

I got the impression from her email that she thought that I was hosting The Board of Inquiry that that she felt I was wrong for doing so.

I replied letting her know that this was not the case, but as of yet, have not received a response.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Your request for a refund through PayPal has been received. Please be aware that while I would like to review and process your refund immediately, unfortunately I will not be available over the next seven days to do so. PayPal has granted me ten days to comply with your request and I will just as soon as I return.

Chuck,

You told her you will not be available to process her refund through PayPal and yet you are currently on-line? Don't you think it might be about time to rethink your position? After the seven days are over it will be too late…

Regards.

 

[critical bill]

Sorry....

This is the email that Cindy copied Mike G. on, not the other one. It would appear its aimed more at Rich Z., fauna and its members, rather than just me. I really don't know what to make of it, but theres nothing I think I need to respond to in it.

-------------------------------------------------
From: "C. Chicvara" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Link regarding a chat group
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 01:07:48 -0800
I was disappointed to receive a link regarding a lot of disrespectful nonsense posted on a chat group that I assume you host. Chuck or "akeeperschoice" promised to ship turtles to me back in mid December. It is now nearly mid January and after sitting at home many days awaiting the turtles without correspondence from Chuck that the turtles were not sent, I still have not received the turtles. Last week I requested a refund from the seller and today I received correspondence from Chuck that he will not reply to my request for another 10 days. I paid him by PayPal on 12/20/05 after winning his auction on 12/19/05. I am out $195 in December and now January.

I think your chat line is misleading. It is a shame people who have nothing else to do will jump on honest people like me. I do breed dogs and I always honor my contracts of purchase. I take care of my animals and I do not engage in petty bickering because it just has not professional. My clients get what they are promised.

I cannot believe people pay $10 to "bad mouth" others and I feel sorry for those who have nothing better to do with their money. How the issue of the return of my money from "Chuck" remains to be seen (and received) but I think a public forum such as yours is irresponsible. Good luck otherwise in the care and health of your chosen progeny, reptilian or otherwise.

Cindy Chicvara

C. Chicvara
[email protected]
http://home.earthlink.net/~caninelove

----------------------------------------------------

END.

Well...in any event...I'll be processing Cindy's refund request when I return back in a week or so. I'm a little busy at the moment preparing and training my two legged peekapitbull, "Tippy", for the International 2006 Purina/Skippy competition.

 

[Mike Greathouse]

Yes - That's the same email that I received. I just found it odd that it was addressed to me, rather then having me listed as a CC.

 

[kmurphy]

In my opinion Cindy does have a legitimate complaint. There is no question that things went down hill after her original "theatening" email but both sides have said things that weren't necessary. I just can't see that she did anything that warrants being jerked around for another 7-10 days. I've seen it written here many times. "How long does it take to issue a refund with paypal". It seems it only takes a few minutes.

 

[Mike Greathouse]

Chuck,
Although you could have ended this days ago with a few mouse clicks, you chose to stand on principle and wait for Cindy to request the refund.
Now that she has done this, you're telling her to wait another week?

She paid within 24 hours of the close of the auction.
Take 60 seconds and put this behind you.

 

[critical bill]

Chuck,

You told her you will not be available to process her refund through PayPal and yet you are currently on-line? Don't you think it might be about time to rethink your position? After the seven days are over it will be too late…

Regards.

Sorry Dan....I'd love to take the time to reply, but I'm running out the door. Be back in seven days to reply to you all....