Damn............

[WebSlave]

I wish I hadn't done that. I just took a look at the subscription membership numbers, and the number of Contributor members fell by one third since I looked at it last a month or so ago.

Now THAT trend certainly doesn't look very good........ Maybe spending that money on the upgrade here wasn't all that smart of a move on my part, financially........

 

[deborahbroadus]

I wish I hadn't done that. I just took a look at the subscription membership numbers, and the number of Contributor members fell by one third since I looked at it last a month or so ago.

Now THAT trend certainly doesn't look very good........ Maybe spending that money on the upgrade here wasn't all that smart of a move on my part, financially........

That's not a good way to start the day, certainly!

One explanation could be: A lot of people are tightening their belts; that may be part of it. This could be the business "lull" till things pick up economy-wise.

Another explanation could be: It's taking time for your changes to sink in and find their level.

What was the demographic of the contributor members that left? Young, in school, the ones having a problem with their business, long standing members, etc?

 

[WebSlave]

What was the demographic of the contributor members that left? Young, in school, the ones having a problem with their business, long standing members, etc?

I doubt that sort of information would be easy, if even possible, to determine.

Yeah, been going through the stats seeing how many people haven't logged in within the past year or more, nor made any posts here. I will likely just delete their registrations (all 24,000 of them) to free up the member names they have reserved and obviously had no intention of using here. I think I just need to chop out some dead wood around here. Which means many of the discussion forums as well. I think based on the traffic (or lack thereof) having a single Snakes Discussion Forum and a single Lizards Discussion Forum would more than suffice for those sections.

And I may need to get more creative with the advertising offerings here as well in order to try to generate revenue to keep this site afloat. If anyone hasn't noticed that green bar banner ad at the top of the screen about helping to keep the BOI alive, that wasn't put there as a joke.

 

[Laura Fopiano]

Rich, look at the bigger picture here.
Members will come and go, those who stay usually end up supporting this site by contributing.

I have felt the pinch of finances by working in the restaurant industry. People are staying home and eating in more now than before. Tips have gone down although they are still getting the same foods and services.

We have had an animal up for sale for a while now and no takers on her. Folks have a lot to trade but no cash, I am not willing to sell my animals at a lesser price just because budgets are tight right now. I feel (me personally) that if I allow myself to sell a quality product at a lower price, I would be selling my own integrity as well. I have worked hard to achieve what I have built. (should be we as in Bryon and I)

Things will change and get better. You have attracted new members here that have quality things to contribute to this site. I sure that Deb could agree. She has taken some pretty hard hits "trial by fire" so to speak. But she has remained here and I hope that she continues to contribute here.

 

[Jerry_c_62]

I have been debating about joining. Not so much if, as when.

I do love this site and would HATE to see it go away. I would like to contribute as much as I can. However the jump from contributor to benifactor is a bit of a stretch. I want to do as much as I can for the site. However, for me I would like to avoid going to HELL to keep this awesome site up.

So my question is this. Can I do a double contributor membership and have it last for two year? This of course assumes that the site is able to stay afloat. And if, in the future I should want to upgrade, because things may be going well for me, is that an option?

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

I still personally think a 10.00 membership would be a good thing for the newer people who dont want to contribute 25.00 JUST yet, or more, but want a taste of the perks of being a contributing member.

That, or maybe more MEMBER only functions would give the incentive to buy in to the site. Thats what attracted me to the 25.00 membership when i first got it, because i could get the good guy certificate and display it on my site. I dunno.

While i support fauna, and what this site does, and am an active poster, i cant really justify sending 100.00 out. Id probably do 50.00, but i dont think theres that option anymore. but... with 25.00 i feel that im still helping things out, and its more than what i pay for Livejournal, where i store all of my images, and host them here from, and am a member of a bunch of communities and such things, and have a blog over there as well. I pay 20.00 over there for a yearly membership, with TONS of image storage space.

 

[jasballs]

I still personally think a 10.00 membership would be a good thing for the newer people who dont want to contribute 25.00 JUST yet, or more, but want a taste of the perks of being a contributing member.

That, or maybe more MEMBER only functions would give the incentive to buy in to the site. Thats what attracted me to the 25.00 membership when i first got it, because i could get the good guy certificate and display it on my site. I dunno.

 

[WebSlave]

I have been debating about joining. Not so much if, as when.

I do love this site and would HATE to see it go away. I would like to contribute as much as I can. However the jump from contributor to benifactor is a bit of a stretch. I want to do as much as I can for the site. However, for me I would like to avoid going to HELL to keep this awesome site up.

So my question is this. Can I do a double contributor membership and have it last for two year? This of course assumes that the site is able to stay afloat. And if, in the future I should want to upgrade, because things may be going well for me, is that an option?

If I should find that I need to just shut this site down completely and get on with my life, one of my first steps would be to stop accepting paid memberships. That will start the clock running the countdown. Basically the last person paying a yearly membership would guarantee (as long as I am physically able, anyway) this site will be around at least that long.

For instance, I once offered personal forums on this site, and a few members did utilize that offering. But it never went anywhere much, and I decided to end that program. So I shut it down in respects to members being able to sign up for a forum, and when the last one expired, the section was deleted from this site.

Which brings up the point about multi-year paid memberships.
This new version of the base software does have the capability to setting up extended memberships spanning multiple years. I have not given any serious thought about implementing it simply because I don't believe many people would be interested in that option when the single year memberships are dropping like flies. If people are choosing to not renew for a single year, I can't believe making it a multi-year option would much sway their decision.

Referencing the above discussion, I just would not want to be committed to keeping this site running.

As for upgrades, yes, I have done that in the past. The general rule of thumb is that if your current membership has 6 months or more remaining on the clock, you can upgrade by paying the difference. But that has to be done manually, so you would need to contact me about handling that.

Oh yeah, if you pay again for a current membership, the system automatically extends your membership subscription for an additional year.

Did I cover it all for you?

Thank you.

 

[WebSlave]

I still personally think a 10.00 membership would be a good thing for the newer people who dont want to contribute 25.00 JUST yet, or more, but want a taste of the perks of being a contributing member.

Possibly. I do still have the "Participant" level membership set up, waiting for the last remaining members in that level to expire. But seems to me I had it set for 10 years at one point when this was a requirement to post in the BOI and I was trying to make that as easy on people as I could for that function.

That, or maybe more MEMBER only functions would give the incentive to buy in to the site. Thats what attracted me to the 25.00 membership when i first got it, because i could get the good guy certificate and display it on my site. I dunno.

From what I have seen, it appeared to me that many people resented perks being restricted to paying members. So rather recently, I lifted just about all of them. Things like avatars and signature areas, as well as the limits on posting attachments to posts.

Oh, as for the Good Guy Certification program, I would bet that when I finally get the time to go through them (Harald has helped me along with this), I will likely have to deleted more then half of them in there right now. So that quite likely is going to be yet another program I started that I will have to list over in the "failure" column.

While i support fauna, and what this site does, and am an active poster, i cant really justify sending 100.00 out. Id probably do 50.00, but i dont think theres that option anymore. but... with 25.00 i feel that im still helping things out, and its more than what i pay for Livejournal, where i store all of my images, and host them here from, and am a member of a bunch of communities and such things, and have a blog over there as well. I pay 20.00 over there for a yearly membership, with TONS of image storage space.

I have actually considered eliminating the two higher membership levels. Simply put, so few people are using that level (and I DO thank everyone who has in the past), that it's really not worthwhile keeping a separate membership group to have to manage the permission sets for in the admin functions. In those cases I tried using highlighting of classified ads as a perk to get members to upgrade to those levels, but obviously that just was not enough. So the members who have been paying that level are obviously doing so (and DONE so) simply to help out more with this site.

BTW, you DO know that you can use the Photo Gallery here to store your images and post them elsewhere, don't you?

Man, I sure do MISS the spell check feature........

 

[WebSlave]

And I thank you, John.......

 

[Jerry_c_62]

I'll grant you that $10 is more appealing than $25. However, the $25 contributor membership really shouldn't put anyone in the poor house. I looked at the benefits that come with the $25 level and tried to consider what I would leave out to make the $10 rate work. I just couldn't come up with something that made me think "That would be worth $10 a year, but Not worth $25". I think the $25 minimum level is the least that should be required for "participation" as a MEMBER.

I think that this may be the post, with my limited contribution, that may get some of you to think ill of me. I hope not. I read a lot and do not post much, because I think the quote that says that it is "better to remain silent and appear ignorant, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt" should apply overall.

I am certainly not in a situation that allows me to say "What the heck, it's only money". If $25 is a stretch for you, you should just forget contributing and stay on the free side.

Maybe, though, adding some sort of donation option for those that would like to contribute, but don't think they would make use of the benefits of membership might be an option. Just a trial balloon.

 

[Jerry_c_62]

I'll grant you that $10 is more appealing than $25. However, the $25 contributor membership really shouldn't put anyone in the poor house. I looked at the benefits that come with the $25 level and tried to consider what I would leave out to make the $10 rate work. I just couldn't come up with something that made me think "That would be worth $10 a year, but Not worth $25". I think the $25 minimum level is the least that should be required for "participation" as a MEMBER.

I think that this may be the post, with my limited contribution, that may get some of you to think ill of me. I hope not. I read a lot and do not post much, because I think the quote that says that it is "better to remain silent and appear ignorant, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt" should apply overall.

I am certainly not in a situation that allows me to say "What the heck, it's only money". If $25 is a stretch for you, you should just forget contributing and stay on the free side.

Maybe, though, adding some sort of donation option for those that would like to contribute, but don't think they would make use of the benefits of membership might be an option. Just a trial balloon.

I'm sorry I quoted myself. I had written all this then realized much had been addressed between reading the posts and writing my reply. And yes you did a great job answering my inquiry so far.

I want to help as much as I can.... what can I do?

 

[deborahbroadus]

I'm sorry I quoted myself. I had written all this then realized much had been addressed between reading the posts and writing my reply. And yes you did a great job answering my inquiry so far.

I want to help as much as I can.... what can I do?

You answered your own question below:

the $25 contributor membership really shouldn't put anyone in the poor house. I looked at the benefits that come with the $25 level and tried to consider what I would leave out to make the $10 rate work. I just couldn't come up with something that made me think "That would be worth $10 a year, but Not worth $25". I think the $25 minimum level is the least that should be required for "participation" as a MEMBER.

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

This is going to be a bit of rambling. Bear with me... im real bad at this stuff.

I dont think you should get rid of your higher memberships. i still think the people that do use them, want them there because they REALLY want to contribute to the site. But i do think considering, even a 10.00 - 15.00 membership that gives access to certain elite features might help. People might whine, but who are the people whining? are they paying members? or leechers?
25.00 isnt even that much money, but for something online, i think people have a different opinion. I know i do. But i suppose thats just me working with standards that other websites already have in place, giving people MORE for less, which is hard when you are trying to run a website for a living no doubt. I hope im making sense... LOL, i cant really explain well myself. I know how i feel about it, but truly, i suck at telling others what the heck i mean!

100.00 for what this site does on the BOI... is not much money.... in reality, for a whole year, and for the information this site contains, But at the same time... I wouldnt spend 100.00 on ANY website i utilize. I just dont physically HAVE anything to show for it. Even functionality wise. If there were features that people were utilizing, that i wanted to participate in, id more than likely pay it, if it was something that really caught my interest. ( i would be happy to pay for usage of the BOI, personally. Even 5.00. * I know youve tried this before, im not saying do it again, just that, i WOULD pay it, if i was a non paying member that was serious about the site* )

Maybe even a pay as you go, sort of thing, for whatever features you liked most. Pick and choose. ( it would be very intensive to keep track of, on your end im sure.... and probably add more coding you dont feel like dealing with, or paying for) But then, also, i think the userbase needs to be larger, with ALREADY participating members to get something like that going. ( so then i ask, what can we do to help boost that, which is hard if you have people that arent really into that to begin with)

I think its hard to make a forum. more. when most of the posters are only into forum posting to begin with.

People make posts and use the BOI... and thats about it. they dont feel the need for any.... Extras. which is hard to work with. But its also the members that exist already that help influence that sort of thing.

let me try to give an example of what im trying to talk about here * i have alot of things i could say, and recommend and such things, but not enough time right now* sooo. yeah....... Livejournal. They have user Icons. Some people use them ALL the time to express their feelings about a certain post, or when they make a response. They have a limit, of... however many ( 30?) , and they want more... so they can pay for more space to have more user pics. Revenue for Livejournal, and people arent too upset at a 10.00 a year price for say, 30 more slots for icons.
I pay, for the customization options over there. and To keep my browsing experience AD free. I use firefox, and dont see much anyway, but... some sneak through, and i do not like ads. AT ALL. I also get a Photo album, with.... what seems to me, so far, is unlimited storage for my images.


I guess its just creating incentive to HAVE to pay for those features to get the browsing experience you want.

I can go on about the galleries later over here, but i cant right now because i must close the shop.

 

[WebSlave]

Just from the few replies to this thread, it is pretty obvious that many people consider the "BOI" and "FaunaClassifieds" as being synonymous. Probably rightfully so, which is just cause for me to post something I posted in the Clubroom forum (yes that IS one of the perks for being a paid member!) a little while back more clearly defining the problem I see looming. Matter of fact, I entitled that thread "Looming problem for the future".

Not sure how far off into the future, but I can definitely see the dark spot at the end of the tunnel.

Every day I am reminded that I am getting older, and the workload Connie and I bear up under for my corn snake business gets more difficult to face every year. When I had emergency surgery for my appendix back in April, the point was pretty well made that something more serious then that could put me down for a long stretch at a very inopportune time, effectively sinking that business. So I've been thinking about how to handle that possibility with some sort of controlled and orderly exit strategy. Some would probably call this something like "retirement".

I guess I've been hoping that the income from the sites I run would pick up enough slack that we wouldn't have to go on welfare. The retirement I will get from the state of Florida wouldn't even cover the monthly health insurance bill, and I guess I've become kind of fond of being able to eat every day. Paid memberships on this site are gradually, but steadily, declining, but I'm hoping that will stabilize before too long. With the income from memberships and advertising, I think we could maybe have enough left over after insurance and taxes to splurge on a McDonald's happy meal once every couple of weeks. Things should be really too bad, I think....

Except for one apparently insurmountable problem. The BOI. As it stands now, I have enough income from my SerpenCo business to fight a lawsuit without bankrupting myself in the process. So I can afford to stick my chin out and tell people to go to hell when they want me to delete some thread about them on the BOI that they don't particularly like. Which is normally followed by the threat of a lawsuit, which I similarly thumb my nose at.

But when the time comes for me to drop the reptile business, things will be quite different. I have enough salted away to fight one lawsuit using those reserves, but after that, with only the trickle of money actually coming in from this site, that reserve will never be able to be replenished, and then I am literally up the creek without a paddle. I couldn't afford to defend the BOI any longer. Which means a genuine lawsuit threat would put me in the position of HAVING to delete whatever it is that the person threatening the lawsuit wants removed. Which, of course, would basically neuter the BOI. So the BOI would be effectively dead, for all intents and purposes. Once word got around that I HAVE to cave on a lawsuit threat, then the game is over with. And along with the BOI, so would go FaunaClassifieds, since realistically, that is really the only reason many people even frequent this site. Which, of course, would also kill that modest income I've been counting on for retirement.

So I'm squarely between a rock and a very hard place. I feel that I realistically have to work my SerpenCo business until I literally drop or I lose everything. FaunaClassifieds just does not have the financial income to carry the load, and the way things look, never will. My other sites bring in far less money (in comparison, anyway), so they hardly even fit into this equation at all.

For those of you wondering, I am estimating that an average lawsuit defense will cost me in the neighborhood of $30K to $50K. Maybe more (perhaps MUCH more) if the suing party has very deep pockets to keep up the pressure, trying to drain me financially. This site MAY be bringing in around $15K gross. The server leases alone take away over half of that. So there's not really all that much financial wiggle room. Heck, I might have to skip the happy meal, now that I look at the figures... Even though I would likely ultimately win a lawsuit as long as I watch my step, my money supply reserve is not endless to keep up an endless string of appeals and crap.

So there's the problem. In order to retire, I can't see any way to avoid retiring the BOI as well in order to reduce the legal liability that could drain me financially. But to retire the BOI means that FaunaClassifieds would likely dry up as well, eliminating the ability for me to even think about retiring.

How's that for a catch-22?

Anyway, I tried everything I can think of to try to generate more income for this site, and at every turn it just seemed to piss off more and more people. I'm sure more than one accused me of being a money grubbing asshole because of these efforts. But I was trying to do what I felt was necessary for the survival of this site. So this is where we are right now. Them's the cards on the table that I am staring at......

I guess my back has stopped hurting enough to go over and finish up feeding the baby snakes...... This old age crap is for the birds.....

I think that pretty much explains what I am looking at right now. Oh, and there was a later post I made in that same thread that explains some things as well....

I feel that an explanation of my strategy here is in order.

I've spent some money for the upgrade and had some more custom mods done with the emphasis on the classifiieds sections. Also tried to make the general use of this forum more pleasant for people by offering bells and whistles to interest them in participating. More are in store for the future, as time permits. My programmer was VERY kind to me and didn't raise the price of the upgrade and mods over what I paid for the last one. Even though he did a LOT more work. Bless his heart....

Anyway, the reason for all this is dual layered. Or perhaps a primary and secondary target would be more accurate.

The first target is to try to get this site generating enough revenue that when the time comes that I can no longer keep the SerpenCo business, that I will feel comfortable that this site is paying it's way enough that even with the BOI still here, I could weather any financial storm (within reason, of course) that may come my way because of it.

Failing that, the secondary target is that the classifieds and other bells and whistles will increase traffic enough to those areas, that the BOI becomes a lesser important factor in the survival of this site, and I can safely kill it without having the site die as a result.

Both will produce the same results concerning as my ability to keep this site running into the forseeable future. But the second target will certainly not make some people very happy, no matter what my reasons.

It is my hope that the enhanced classifieds will increase traffic here, and the smal percentage of members who are willing to be paying members, advertisers, and sponsors will be large enough in actual numbers to help assure this site will stay afloat. With the goal being, of course, keeping me able to keep this site (either with or without the BOI) when my major source of income will end. Perhaps this will work, or perhaps not, we'll just have to see. All I can do is to try my best to make that happen.

Of course, seeing the latest figures on the paid memberships like I did earlier today certainly doesn't give me much confidence in the future. But such is life, I guess. No guarantees, expressed or implied.....

 

[jasballs]

I reposted this in a few threads where people are Actually viewing! Maybe some people will see it and get the point?

 

[deborahbroadus]

Rich, look at the bigger picture here.
Members will come and go, those who stay usually end up supporting this site by contributing.

I have felt the pinch of finances by working in the restaurant industry. People are staying home and eating in more now than before. Tips have gone down although they are still getting the same foods and services.

We have had an animal up for sale for a while now and no takers on her. Folks have a lot to trade but no cash, I am not willing to sell my animals at a lesser price just because budgets are tight right now. I feel (me personally) that if I allow myself to sell a quality product at a lower price, I would be selling my own integrity as well. I have worked hard to achieve what I have built. (should be we as in Bryon and I)

Things will change and get better. You have attracted new members here that have quality things to contribute to this site. I sure that Deb could agree. She has taken some pretty hard hits "trial by fire" so to speak. But she has remained here and I hope that she continues to contribute here.

LoLo has a good point...(no not about me) but you may be attracting a different clientel now. Are their any new members at all? Perhaps the change needs time?

 

[deborahbroadus]

I believe in this site. I understand what the purpose was. Without it, the scammers will run free. This will ruin the herping community and businesses. Everyone doesn't have the money for lawyers and small claims courts take time. I wish everyone understood the benefits that they get from having Fauna functioning!!

This was too big a burden to place on one man, and we don't all know each other enough to purchase shares...hey that's an idea..have you thought about selling shares..Lucille may know more about the legalities of it.

 

[Southern Wolf]

LoLo has a good point...(no not about me) but you may be attracting a different clientel now. Are their any new members at all? Perhaps the change needs time?

**raises hand**

Im new... been posting for bout a month now.

Im just gonna throw out some ideas... dont shoot me

Im still learning about the contrabution levels and such... but here is my thought.

I have considered the 25 level.... but at the same time I dont know that Id really use the features over what is already offered to me. Im still up in the air on this... .and I haven't shot it down yet. I am also considering paying for advertising... (however I need to get my site up and running first).

another thought I had..... if their was some way to send out invoices to those that DO contribute.... those members would be able to write that amount off on their taxes at the end of the year as a membership fee... that is business related. IF that information is spread around... maybe more businesses would contribute.

The BOI does provide a valuable resourse... and it also shows the true colors of certian people.... all of this is invaluable.

I know that right now for me... money is tight.... and it just got tighter.... since I just bought out a small time leo breeder. Im picking up 53 leos next week complete with racks and tubs.

I honestly dont have a solution to the problem though. I know most folks dont want to pay to use a forum.

As to the SerpenCo issues.... is it possible to keep the doors open and money coming in utilizing help... or maybe some sort of Reptile Business Mentorship (internship) for some local kids / young adults wanting to get into the business. They learn the ropes... and provide you with the labor to keep the business afloat. Im not sure how much you still do by yourself.... I honestly figured you had a crew at this point.

Anyhow... just some of my thoughts.

 

[deborahbroadus]

**raises hand**

Im new... been posting for bout a month now.

Im just gonna throw out some ideas... dont shoot me

Im still learning about the contrabution levels and such... but here is my thought.

I have considered the 25 level.... but at the same time I dont know that Id really use the features over what is already offered to me. Im still up in the air on this... .and I haven't shot it down yet. I am also considering paying for advertising... (however I need to get my site up and running first).

another thought I had..... if their was some way to send out invoices to those that DO contribute.... those members would be able to write that amount off on their taxes at the end of the year as a membership fee... that is business related. IF that information is spread around... maybe more businesses would contribute.

The BOI does provide a valuable resourse... and it also shows the true colors of certian people.... all of this is invaluable.

I know that right now for me... money is tight.... and it just got tighter.... since I just bought out a small time leo breeder. Im picking up 53 leos next week complete with racks and tubs.

I honestly dont have a solution to the problem though. I know most folks dont want to pay to use a forum.
As to the SerpenCo issues.... is it possible to keep the doors open and money coming in utilizing help... or maybe some sort of Reptile Business Mentorship (internship) for some local kids / young adults wanting to get into the business. They learn the ropes... and provide you with the labor to keep the business afloat. Im not sure how much you still do by yourself.... I honestly figured you had a crew at this point.

Anyhow... just some of my thoughts.

Good points...but the bolded area is a good point and the response is: So they would rather pay for lawyers???