Dave Lawson & Neil Gubitz

[Wilomn]

Webslave it's your site and your rules. Rules....... interesting concept. Oh well.

I believe that you have asked for input on this site several times. Now that you are getting it, it's tough noogies???? That is more like jeff than anything else you've done.

You had a policing system, you had warning points. Those were good things. A little structure is not amiss. Personally I think you have taken a giant step backwards in this, yet again, unbanning. It sort of says the heck with the rules and the guidelines, do as you will.

I think most of the people who have complained about this site have been on the recieving end of an inquiry that was not too pleasant. I don't see much sense in worrying overmuch about them. Those who have been helped are overwhelmingly in favor of this site.

As far as playing mommy, I don't think any of us were looking for that from you, though I may be wrong, I know I wasn't looking for it.

Oh well, bottom line is it is your site to do with as you see fit. I do think you will see a lessoning in the quality that used to be here though. At least for now.

Wes Pollock

 

[WebSlave]

Sorry, but I did not ask your opinion in what I did about Neil, and I am not doing so in retrospect. Personally I could not care less. Once you came in here mouthing off like you did about him, do you think it was "fair" that I kept Neil defenseless to say anything in his defense in a "public" forum? So in effect, it is because of you (and a few others) that left me no damn choice in the matter.

So you have yourself to thank for my breaking of my own rules, Wes. Or would you have preferred that I give you a defenseless target to pick on? That sounds real fair to you, I guess. But it certainly did not to me. I was already contemplating the whole idea of banning, so this just pushed my decision over the edge.

So yes, if some people don't like the fact that I allowed Neil to come back in (and Adam Block as well earlier), tough noogies. It was my call to make, and the fairest of the choices available to me under the circumstances.

And if you don't like the fact that I don't want to spend nearly every waking moment policing this joint, again, tough noogies. You have NO idea how much static I get from people when I assess them even minor warning points. How many times have YOU yourself emailed me back saying the warning points I gave you were unfair?

Anyway, I still have my REAL work to do tonight. You all do what you want in here.

 

[Wilomn]

Rich/Webslave, I believe I have emailed you twice and posted twice or perhaps three times about points you have given me. I am thinking that on the two that I emailed you about, once you explained why you assessed me those points I was in agreement with you.

As far as neil goes, you banned him. You unbanned him. If I manage to get myself kicked off a site or out of a place by my actions against whatever rules are in force there then I am gone regardless of what anyone else says about me. Tough noogies it is.

As far as your being fair goes, you have to decide what fair is. You have made your decision. I disagree but, one of the cool things about this site is the fact that even though I disagree with you I can say so and you'll leave it up.

I don't think it's fair that neil is back. He's lost the PRIVILEDGE twice. It's not a right to come here, it's most assuredly a priviledge. I never made neil a target, he did that all on his own.

I don't think I left you with no choice, just my opinion and obviously different from yours. You had the choice to stick by what you had previously decided or not.

I don't think it's always a bundle of fun to run this site. I would imagine that the last few days exemplify this statement wonderfully. I do think you do well at it. I certainly neither want nor think you should have to spend nearly every waking moment policing this site. What a hell that would be.

I am glad that this is not like ks, though, let me reiterate that. I may not have the popular opinion but I do appreciate the ability to put out what I think.

You know, I seriously considered ending this with the line "if you don't like my opinion enough you could always ban me" but, I am really not trying to be a smartass here. Discourse in this fashion, an internet message board not in real time, is not always easy or smooth. So I will end it with this instead, "I appreciate the opportunity to come here and post my opinions, ask for help when I need it, help where I may and, on occasion, prove myself a fool. I have meant no disrespect to you Rich and by saying so I in no way wish to get brown on my nose either. You owe me nothing, never thought you did."

Done

Wes Pollock

 

[WebSlave]

Wes - It's simply a matter of thinking this through all of the way.

Is it fair for the BOI to ban someone and not allow them to defend themselves to posts made by other people? Is it fair that people could then make statements about that person, whether true or false, and that person was not allowed to make a rebuttal?

Is it fair, no matter what the reason for their being banned, that I have taken away their right to be given a fair assessment by the people reading the words posted about them here?

I'm sorry, but I came to the inescapable conclusion that it just is NOT fair, and in some respects makes the BOI more of a joke then some other people's opinion of it. It then becomes a kangaroo court with often one sided testimony.

So once I reached that conclusion, I had to carry it even further. If it is not fair, as mentioned above, then what purpose is served by banning someone? Do I then also ban even the mentioning of their name here in a negative light? Would I be fair to allow this sort of talk? Well, my belief is that it would not be fair at all. So banning would have to go hand in hand with removing everyone else's right to even talk about that person. That certainly seems self defeating to me.

And it left a big hole in the BOI as well. Heck, all a bad guy would have to do is to just come on here and figure out a way to get banned immediately, hopefully before any bad press was published about them. They would then be scott free, based on the above scenario. No one could say a bad word about them since they were now banned.

Yes, there are going to be bans, but they will be temporary ones. Long enough to be a real deterrent to someone getting carried away, but short enough that I would not be uncomfortable allowing a discussion to take place about them in their absence.

A long while ago, the issue of determining a real identification of people posting messages here was topmost on my mind. The only way I could figure to do that was to do something like requiring positive ID. A credit card, for instance, where I would simply charge $1 to their credit card and in that way establish (at least somewhat) that it was not a bogus signup. But I hit the same wall with that as I did with this banning thing. If someone is being bashed in the BOI, whether fairly or unfairly, and the target of the talk complained about being held hostage to pay that $1 just to defend themselves, how could I refuse to let them in for free? So the entire plan would have been shot out of the water the first time this issue came up.

Besides, it is just darned tough for me to feel I am so pro-liberty with my beliefs, but then turn around and ban someone. I guess you just need to be in the driver's seat for a while to know what I mean by that. It is, surprisingly enough, rather stressful to ban someone. The times that Ken and Ritchie have had to do it in my stead, they both expressed a lot of regret and guilt about doing so here. I was actually glad to hear them say that, because for the longest time I thought there was just something wrong with me for feeling that way.

 

[Wilomn]

It's a tough row to hoe. I do understand, better now that the noogies aren't so prevelant, that there is just no way to keep the fredoms that are so important to you, and not just you alone, and not have this site accessable to everyone.

I do understand your feelings of guilt about the bannings you made in the past but I was considering them more as culls, strengthing the whole by getting rid of the bad. I think you must be a nicer guy than I am.

Thanks for the explanation.

Wes Pollock

 

[Adam Block]

cost me access to kingsnake.com defending YOUR rights to post here

Sorry (in my most pathetic voice)



You do a very good job, I think letting Neil back was wise. Both him and I were banned before the warning points and I think you may have even started them because of me.

Having the points makes it easy to see when you're getting out of line, I don't think Neil or I had that in check and while it shouldn't have my banning came as a shock to me at the time. Even more because I wasn't even able to view the site or anything being posted on it because I had a static IP.

Saddly for many of us we maybe do spend too much of our time in here. When I look at how few people from here are willing to even help with questions in the forums that's even more evident.

Even people that I wouldn't um, maybe loan my car or be good friends with like Ritchie Luna I have respect for because I see him trying to help people with questions and do good. Agree with him or not I know his intentions are good and he has a good heart.

Some people are here to cause trouble. Some are here to help and others just enjoy laughing at adults like me put their feet in their mouths and look like chidlish fools. Whatever brings people here the BOI has a cult following and you should be proud of what you've done. You have help more people then you can even imagine!

As for how much effort you put into the BOI. I say it should be in proportion to what you make an hour from it.

You all do what you want in here.

It will ALL be here for you to read, and YOU have to sift through it.

That sounds about right to me. People need the BOI and the fact that when you sort posts by views. All the bad guy garbage scum bag post have 20,000 views and there are good guy posts with 7 views just shows you human nature. We all love to see a car wreck but nobody wants to be in one.

 

[BrianB]

First, thanks Webslave. I may not do as much buying -- or any selling at all -- as a lot of the regulars, but I appreciate the board.

Second, I'd like to remind folks that there's an ignore button. Just click on the Profile button under a user's post, and at the bottom of the profile, right side, there's some small print that says "Add user to your ignore list" or something similar. Just click on that. I know it's not a perfect solution, for a number of reasons, but it's an option.

 

[John Apple]

Its the webslaves site

Its the webslaves site..did I just say that up there
He let Neil back in for his own reasons, and if you read his posts, his reasons are truely admirable.
What we all think or don't think of Neil is on us.
whether we deal with Neil is on us
I also think Neil is an intelligent guy, maybe some of that same intelligence was used for tomfoolery.He [yes he] also deserves the right to defend himself as webslave said. Soooo in all FAIRNESS Neil was let back in.
Another thing also, a lot of 'Newbies' to the board can make thier own assumptions to what kind of person Neil is or was. With him not here how can they do that.
Neil seems to be one of the most trying guys around for the public opinion of himself, be it good or bad.
Lets talk about turning over new leaves..I have a record...yup sure do, did some pretty cr@ppy things in my life. Grabbed my rake and now I am the most honest guy I know...hands down.
maybe Neil is raking the forest full of leaves to turn over, maybe he is not...the future holds that.
Yes I am being sympathetic, after reading the webslaves post how can you not be.

 

[timopar]

Not a regular poster but have a few thoughts

I am what most would call a lurker and this thread has motivated me to post a few thoughts about the whole Neil Gubitz saga and how he came to be in the ill favor he is in.

Now just for the record, I am not a reptile breeder/dealer/shop owner, friend or aquaintence of Neil or anyone else on this BOI for that matter. I live in a small town in the middle of Georgia and have ONE snake(had 2 sold one). I come here to see what the reptile INDUSTRY is like, in the event that I one day aspire to breed or open a shop, so I have no personal stake in any of this.

Now, sorry if I am long winded, here is the story as I see it.
Neil owns a store in Tampa, Fl. He is a very active part of a growing community of concerned herpers that helps people with problem deals, the BOI. Neil spent quite a bit of time helping people to rectify problems here, mediating remedies to any number of problems. This help was done with the assistance and support of a great number of people on this same BOI and for years(?) he was a well liked and respected member of this community.
One day he comes to he board to report a terrible, dispicible and heart wrenching incident at his store. The store has been robbed, vandalized and many of his animals have been killed. With the news of such a great tragedy to one of its own, the BOI community bands together to support Neil. Donations are taken, words of support and encouragement are given and life moves on....Fast forward....Neil again comes to the board to report, yet again, a teriible dispicible and heart wrenching incident at his store. Once again the store has been robbed, vandalized and many of his animals are left for dead. This time the BOI community does much like it did the first time, donations encouraging words and support. BUT, this time a rumor begins to surface, talk of fraud and deceipt on Neils part begin to make ther way through the BOI.
At some point there are outright accusations made, Neil is suddenly a suspect in his own tragedy. The BOI community begins to doubt their previously respected member. Neil maintains his innocence amid the constant pressure of doubt and some rather aggressive questioning. Dave Lawson is mentioned and helps to spearhead the attack on Neil's character, while Neil points the finger to Dave. Private investigations are ordered by those that donated money in SUPPORT of Neil. The PI's report only supports the suspiscions of those that felt Neil was to blame and soon Neil is labeled a thief and liar. His position on the BOI slips to nil and soon his own words get him banned.
Now this is the way that I have seen this unfold, IN A NUT SHELL, I know there will be plenty of details that are left out, but, my point will illustrate that details are not the most important thing in undertanding Neils actions during this time.
Now, I understand that Neil had written several emails with some very nasty and mailicous things in them about people here on the BOI. These emails outraged many here on the BOI and earned Neil their disdain and resentment. I also know that these emails are the main reason Neil was seriously discredited and eventually aided in his being banned. But based on the way things unfolded, and the FACTS that are now surfacing about Dave Lawson's involvement in all these illegal activities, I for one can certainly understand Neil's loss of respect for the people on the BOI and many of the things that he did in that time frame are much more undertandable to me. Neil continually professed his innocence in the matter of his stores burglary's. Continually Neil was attacked and subject to constant ridicule by the very group of people that once supported him, the community to which he belonged turned on him during some of his hardest times. I think all of us may be able to understand many of the things that Neil said during that period of time, as many of us would have said the same or worse given the circumstances. This has absolutley NOTHING to do with is business dealings, I am speaking solely of his place hear on the BOI. I for one am very grateful that Rich has allowed him back, and I am sure that his attitude within the BOI will return to what it once was with time.
As to Neil's business dealings with Rozann and Mike. Yes a mistake was made, but all was rectified to the satisfaction of the customer and that is what it is all about, Customer Satisfaction. It seems to me that some people will never allow Neil the benefit of the doubt, but maybe if you take into consideration the above circumstances in his life over the last couple years, you will allow him a chance to show he has indeed changed, I know I will. I also know that if there is no sign of change, he will have earned his place on my bad list, but I will let him earn it. Just my humble and long winded opinion, not that it is going to change anyone else's.
Tim Larson

 

[The BoidSmith]

For those that enjoy excellent reading, and the same time want to see their business soar to new levels, there is an excellent best seller by Jim Collins called "Good to Great".

The author begins this book with a startling and counterintuitive claim: "Good is the enemy of great."

Below is a quote from this book.

Disciplined People: "Who" Before "What".

...When it comes to getting started, good-to-great leaders understand three simple truths. First, if you begin with "who," you can more easily adapt to a fast-changing world. If people get on your bus because of where they think it's going, you'll be in trouble when you get 10 miles down the road and discover that you need to change direction because the world has changed. But if people board the bus principally because of all the other great people on the bus, you'll be much faster and smarter in responding to changing conditions. Second, if you have the right people on your bus, you don't need to worry about motivating them. The right people are self-motivated: Nothing beats being a part of a team that is expected to produce great results.. And third, if you have the wrong people on the bus, nothing else matters. You may be headed in the right direction, but you still won't achieve greatness. …

Webslave,

It was a tough decision and, as you mentioned before, one of the “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” sort. When someone is questioned in a thread they should have the right to voice their opinion, no doubt about that. A while ago you asked for opinions on the topic at hand. Those opinions were expressed in a poll, and for a while, you went along with them. Now you decide to go against your decision, and that of the majority. And that’s OK, it’s your site and you can do as you please. But in MHO, asking for people’s input and then doing the opposite sets a precedent for the future. Several times you have requested opinions on different topics in order to make more informed decisions. You have manifested in several occasions your displeasure with the lack of participation and “votes” on those polls. Your present decision will more than likely reinforce that attitude. If the opinions requested seem to bear little or no weight, why express them at all? Furthermore, it is possible that your current decision might result in a self-imposed banning of individuals that otherwise could have been a valuable asset to your site.


Kindly,

 

[Neil Gubitz]

WOW!.... Finally....

someone who actually KNOWS what I've been going through these last three years!!.... Tim, I couldn't have said it better myself.... and I THANK YOU for saying it, and actually understanding it!
I don't know how many times in those three years, that I have said.... "I hope this never happens to you", type of thing.... if you think it's been fun, you are seriously mistaken.... to be accused of doing everything that the herp world calls despicable and underhanded (robbing my own store, stealing money from the BOI people, lieing to save my own ass, being in cahoots with the person that DID steal their money, etc., etc., etc.), was just too much for me to take at times, and I lashed out (WRONG, I KNOW!).... but I DID!.... being asked accusatory question after question by Lawson, and then having all my "friends" on the BOI thinking they were TRUE questions, to start harping on me for answers I just didn't have.... it was like a Chinese Water Torture, sooner or later, you go crazy (and I DID).... the last "email" I sent was (for me) the last straw, and it got me (rightfully) banned.... but, I took it like a man and never complained.... even when that PI Report came out blaming me again, when it was Lawson and Angie as the main witnesses.... FINALLY, after THREE YEARS the TRUTH has come out.... I have been (in my mind) TOTALLY vindicated of ANY wrongdoing in this whole mess.... and then with Rich having the decency to un-ban me so I could speak for myself, was a great load off my mind....
One thing you should understand, however.... I haven't changed a bit, in all the months I was banned, I was STILL helping people behind the scenes in personal emails from my own computer and not from this site.... I AGREE, I made a HUGE mistake by sending Rozann those sick animals, I KNOW IT and YOU KNOW IT.... I'm NOT trying to make excuses for it, IT WAS WRONG, but, as you said, I made it right to HER satisfaction, and, to me, that's what counts....
Now, it has been PROVEN that Lawson was behind THIS WHOLE THING.... I wouldn't be surprized to find out that it was HIM that somehow STOLE your money, he stole everything else, why not that.... HE is the one who proclaimed to be Thornton and called my father, HE is the one who (allegedly) burglarized EVERY place that was hit over the last four years (and when the State's Attorney finally signs off on those crimes, we might be able to find out the WHOLE truth).... thanks to Susin and Julie, the REAL truth is coming out by the bucketfull.... even BEFORE susin posted on page 10, Lawson was STILL trying to blame me for all this.... how the worm turned now, huh??
I will continue to help as many people as I can in the herp world to make it a nicer place, and I will continue to sell the highest quality animals I can find.... NEVER AGAIN will I let what happened to Rozann EVER happen again.... you've got my WORD on that!!.... I made a terrible mistake and I have paid for it greatly!.... I chalk it up to a GREAT lesson learned....
Now, there will still be some people that will want nothing to do with me, and I can appreciate their feelings, everyone is entitled to their own opinions.... but I will NEVER bring myself to their level by arguing with them or even responding to their posts.... as I said before, I am going to be a much kinder and gentler Neil Gubitz.... I have learned my lessons WELL.... ALL I ask is the time to prove that I am STILL the same Neil Gubitz I was when the BOI first showed it's face around here.... no more attacking, no more yelling, and no more juvenile attitudes.... just PLAIN AND SIMPLE HELP if I can give it....
I've said it before, but, I think it bears saying again.... I REALLY DO APOLOGIZE FOR MY PAST REACTIONS OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS, I just hope you can all NOW understand where my head was at....
How bout we ALL just put this behind us and get the REAL BAD GUY (Lawson) OUT OF THIS BUSINESS FOR GOOD.... I am definitely going to do my part.... You have NO IDEA how much I want to make this one big happy family again, all coming together for the GOOD of this business which I will be in for a VERY LONG TIME....
Thanks for listening....
Neil

 

[WebSlave]

Alvaro,

Matter of fact, I did run a poll exactly about this circumstance:

Poll on banning

Not exactly a mandate from the masses now is it?

And this is pretty much the norm for any poll I have done on or about this site. The percentage of participation is so small that it is really a negligible portion of the total registered users of this site. Even knowing that, I STILL solicit opinions.

The reason I set up a poll is because I am in the mode of considering what is best, and hope that some input may help me come to the best decision. Sometimes it can be the thoughts from a minority position that carry more weight than what the majority of those who bothered to vote will profess.

I do not believe that the majority is always right. Particularly when the majority voting is such a small minority of the total possible votes. If I had 6,000 people vote, and 5,000 of them felt a certain way, why yes, that would clearly show me the path to take. But when only 20 vote, even if all 20 vote a certain way, it is just as clearly evident that the other 5,980 people don't care either way.

And yes, I do expect someone to say that they can't find the poll if it is not here on the BOI. Well, maybe that is indicative of a problem as well. If you only come onto this site to go to the BOI looking for car wrecks (as someone put it), then maybe you are not the best person to have any influence in this site. If that is what 5,980 people want out of this site, then it is just as clear that anything I do that does not infringe on the car wreck viewing is not any of their concern.

I expect this site to gain new members and lose old members all of the time. As interests change, people will go on their way to something else of more interest to them. It is but a click of the mouse to get here, and a click of the mouse to leave. That is the way it is on the internet, and I fully understand and accept it.

So if some people don't like my decisions, then they are welcome to leave at any time. Because I certainly am not going to make my site something I am not happy with just to please them.

 

[Stardust]

Alvaro,
I am not sure making the statement that Webslave is going against the majority is accurate or even fair. I do not believe that to state the word majority even comes close to majority. There are what approx 5000 people on this site now? How many voted? I am not even sure I did or even saw it.
I think everything Webslave had said is accurate. He is the one that has to listen to everything and bare the burden of this site.
Also, just because one asking for input or opinions does not mean they have to go with it, it helps to structure decisions in the persons mind, it does not make up their choice for them.
I fully understand what Webslave had said.
I was looking at it in terms a person being not only a non moving target but a bound one at that.

 

[Stardust]

Had I known you were writing too, I would have just stayed quiet LOL
So I will just stand at understanding your stance and totally agreeable to it.

 

[Stardust]

I have been very busy of late and pre-occupied so I did not vote, didn't even see it as a matter of fact. I have voted on some. Had I had to to be looking and did see it I would not have said any of the three, but stated more of a "time out" so to speak. IMO there has to be rules and there has to be consequences. I think a "time out" would be good as it would give people time to think, with no access at all, zip, for like, say, two weeks. Or one thru four weeks depending on the severity of the rules. With that being said and with out full banning perhaps the points should be less than tweny five. Perhaps ten.
Just throwing out my opinion and ideas.

 

[JungleHabitats]

Webslave

Might i suggest something , i noticed a response to the poll on banning was they didnt know it was there . Being IMO the BOI is the most viewed forum on this site.Might i suggest that future polls be stickyed to the BOI and in any way to be viewd when someone clicks on "NewPosts" tabs. I know i for one use mainly that function when viewing the boards ... as i want to see what has been posted since the last 1/2 hr i was here . I think if Polls that pertain to how you want to address the way the site goes and to get the most feed back from the members would to post them in the BOI .I understand you frustration in posting polls to only get les then 1-2% of the popular opinion in them.I think you wouldget more participation in them if it wassomething that was continually seen ever time someone hits "New Posts" then you would more then likely feel as people really apprciate the time you put forth into even starting a poll for there opinions.
Respectfully Alan

 

[JungleHabitats]

Stardust ... My post was on polling for a ban

i like the cooling off period idea

would there be a way to do something like this ?

10 points - 10 day ban from posting 1st offense(read only)
20 points - 20 day ban from posting 2nd offense(read only)
30 points - 30 day ban from posting 3rd offense(site ban)
40 points - banned indefinately by webslave (total ban)

gave it set up with a "3 strikes " your out rules but at the same time you would have the grace period for them to think about getting out of hand next time.


but if it could be done this was to make it easy on you not to forget about there bans have it set so that you can just check a box and that it would possibly be on a timer like you tell it 10 days ,20 days etc?
i dont know i just woke up from a short over needed rest lol so if this is garbage talk im sorry lol

 

[The BoidSmith]

Webslave,

Matter of fact, I did run a poll exactly about this circumstance:

I know. I was one of the 25 that voted.

Poll on banning

Not exactly a mandate from the masses now is it?

My point exactly. In MHO there will be more likely less votes in the future.

I do not believe that the majority is always right.

You are right, but it's a "defect" of democracy if you will. That's why in certain countries voting is not a right but mandatory.

And yes, I do expect someone to say that they can't find the poll if it is not here on the BOI. Well, maybe that is indicative of a problem as well. If you only come onto this site to go to the BOI looking for car wrecks (as someone put it), then maybe you are not the best person to have any influence in this site. If that is what 5,980 people want out of this site, then it is just as clear that anything I do that does not infringe on the car wreck viewing is not any of their concern

I agree, and I would have also liked to see more than those meager 25 votes.

I expect this site to gain new members and lose old members all of the time.

It's a fact of life.

So if some people don't like my decisions, then they are welcome to leave at any time. Because I certainly am not going to make my site something I am not happy with just to please them.

Absolutely.

Best regards.

 

[Stardust]

That would be great except perhaps the definite banning, then it is back to what it is now.
The reason why I say the point system should be lowered is, the same reason why I do not do the count system with my kids. If I do it, they have up to the count of ten to hurry up and do what they can in that amount of time. But I give them a time out from their favorate thing, it drives them crazy, then they relax and think about it. And just in case, LOL, I am NOT calling anyone kids here, but kids are what I deal with on a daily basis sooooo that is the easiest way for ME to put it into understanding terms.

 

[WebSlave]

If it is all the same to you all, how about moving the discussion concerning banning over to the the poll thread in the feedback forum where it belongs. Although it is somewhat on topic here, it is drifting more and more away from it with every post.

Thanks.