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Bad Guy DEAD SNAKES from Kevin South of The Constrictors Labrynth

Emailed Wendy and got this back:
Subject: Sorry to bother -- did you buy a red-tailed boa from Nick Giavasis recently?

Diana,
Yes, i did buy a boa from him. I have seen most of the thread, but not the most recent ones. When he sold the boa to us the boa did not appear to be "sick" with any discharge, and he did tell us that the person that he got the snake from kept his males thin, but that the snake was fine. Just for the record, ALL dealings that we have had with Nicholas have been positive, and this was a very unfortunate circumstance. Nicholas was not aware of the IBD until we we informed him that he should be aware because of his own personal collection. When I told Nicholas about the snake having IBD, and being euthed, he was VERY appologetic, and extremely upset. He has also given us his word that he will be making the whole situation right, and then sum. I have not been disappointed with my dealings one bit with him. He has been very helpfull, and extremely understanding on our behalf of wanting either refund, trade, etc. If you need anything else, please let me know. And feel free
to cross post this to the thread as well. Thanks

Wendy Finkle
 
If Wendy is reading this thread, I wish she would registure to post as well and explain how the determiniation of IBD was made, because so far I haven't seen a shred of evidence for it.

I've also never seen a vet report that didn't have the name or other marks about who prepared the report but the main thing I noticed in the report that had me quite concerned was... they had it for one month and tried to force feed it SMALL RATS multiple times (says only one went down)... besides the fact if the boa was 'so small' as is now being thrown around (the gram weights which were never an issue until the other arguments were being thrownout) who would start force feeding after only a few weeks and such a large prey item?! I don't mean to go so far off topic but I would like to know who advised them to do that. Nick? the vet?
 
AbsoluteApril said:
If Wendy is reading this thread, I wish she would registure to post as well and explain how the determiniation of IBD was made, because so far I haven't seen a shred of evidence for it.

I've also never seen a vet report that didn't have the name or other marks about who prepared the report but the main thing I noticed in the report that had me quite concerned was... they had it for one month and tried to force feed it SMALL RATS multiple times (says only one went down)... besides the fact if the boa was 'so small' as is now being thrown around (the gram weights which were never an issue until the other arguments were being thrownout) who would start force feeding after only a few weeks and such a large prey item?! I don't mean to go so far off topic but I would like to know who advised them to do that. Nick? the vet?
Click to expand...

milkshake8882 Is Wendy she is waiting for approval. Can't post yet.
 
dheideman said:
Diana,
Yes, i did buy a boa from him. I have seen most of the thread, but not the most recent ones. When he sold the boa to us the boa did not appear to be "sick" with any discharge, and he did tell us that the person that he got the snake from kept his males thin, but that the snake was fine. Just for the record, ALL dealings that we have had with Nicholas have been positive, and this was a very unfortunate circumstance. Nicholas was not aware of the IBD until we we informed him that he should be aware because of his own personal collection. When I told Nicholas about the snake having IBD, and being euthed, he was VERY appologetic, and extremely upset. He has also given us his word that he will be making the whole situation right, and then sum. I have not been disappointed with my dealings one bit with him. He has been very helpfull, and extremely understanding on our behalf of wanting either refund, trade, etc. If you need anything else, please let me know. And feel free
to cross post this to the thread as well. Thanks

Wendy Finkle
Click to expand...

so how was IBD proven since you haven't even had enough time to get the cultures done and back? It sure wasn't proven in the report that was posted earlier. :angry:
 
Southern Wolf said:
so how was IBD proven since you haven't even had enough time to get the cultures done and back? It sure wasn't proven in the report that was posted earlier. :angry:
Click to expand...

Dont just start attacking an unknown person in this whole thing.
She is not to blame.
She could be completely innocent in this.

She is awaiting approval of a mod, and she most likely will post the IBD findings once she is able to.
Patience is a virtue.
 
I haven't started attacking yet. I do however have an idea of how bad IBD is... and what it can do to a collection and the name associated with that collection. Therefore.. Unless someone has solid proof they shouldn't be tossing around that diagnosis. As of currently... there is absolutely no proof that it exists.
 
Don't necessarily think Kevin is attacking anyone, but rather more incensed by this whole thread, as many rightfully could be. What I am most curious about now is this...

In Wendy's e-mail to Diana, she stated that all of her dealings with Nick have been positive. She has also acknowledged that she has read at least some of this thread. I am wondering how she feels after reading(if she has) Nick's e-mail to Kevin saying he was going to try to dump a sick snake off on someone. Can't feel too positive about that.

Of course my line of thinking is all working under the assumption that the sick snake Nick told Kevin he would try to sell to someone is the same sick snake that Wendy bought from Nick.
 
Ok, Wendy got me the report. It's attached. Her account is still waiting approval.

There is a line under "diagnosis" that mentions IBD. However, the actual necropsy is still listed as "pending", and Wendy has not gotten that final report yet.

I don't claim to understand IBD at all, I'm not a boid expert. Can someone that knows better verify if a diagnosis can even be made without/before the necropsy, or is that more of a "symptoms match/suspected cause" sort of diagnosis on this report?

She also emailed me this (and cc'd Nick), asked me to repost it since she doesn't have posting access yet. It responds to a few things stated in the thread:

---

from Wendy Finkle [email protected]
to Diana Heideman <[email protected]>
cc Nicholas Giavasis <[email protected]>
date Fri, May 13, 2011 at 4:46 PM
subject Re: Etsy conversation from wuukiee
mailed-by yahoo.com
signed-by yahoo.com

hide details 4:46 PM (25 minutes ago)

We got the snake from him on 4.17.11. He did not "pawn" this snake off on us. We actually met him for a ball python. While we were there, he showed us several of the snakes that he owned, including this one. He was telling us the story of where he had gotten him, and why he was supposedly so skinny. My husband mentioned how much he liked his colors. Nick stated that he wasnt sure if he was going to sell him at that time or not. At the end of our meet, he stated that he would consider selling him, and my husband decided that he would take him. I think this whole situation has gotten blown WAY out of proportion. Also, i havent see the necropsy posted yet, and from what i have read, i assure you that the vet report that was posted is not fraudulent. And yes, the chest compressions were performed on the snake, i was there to see it. We did opt to euth the snake as he technically "died" on the table once already. Just to clarify one more thing that i read from the posts. When i say force fed "small" rat, i mean SMALL rat... like, weanling rat... something i would feed my young ball python. Let me know if you have any other questions since i cant post.
 

Attachments

  • necropsy.jpg
    necropsy.jpg
    145.8 KB · Views: 322
IBD confirmed by histopathology, yet the histopathology results are pending??? I hope I read that right...I still don't see any proof that the snake did in fact have IBD. At least results are pending.

Maybe Nick didn't technically pawn the snake off on Wendy. Maybe when Wendy's husband expressed interest, he didn't want to seem too eager to get rid of it either, as that may raise a red flag. So it seems like he pulled the old "I'm not sure I want to sell it" and then later "but I'll consider selling for 'X' amount of dollars" knowing he already had them on the hook.

It has been posted and reposted, but remains worth mentioning...Nick told Kevin that he was going to sell a snake that he knew was sick- there was no way to mince his words in that e-mail or blow them out of proportion. I'm sorry to say it, but it seems that Wendy and her husband got duped.
 
RobNJ said:
IBD confirmed by histopathology, yet the histopathology results are pending??? I hope I read that right...I still don't see any proof that the snake did in fact have IBD. At least results are pending.
Click to expand...


That's the part I'm super confused about. I know Wendy would LOVE this to be a misdiagnosis, she's quite freaked out about the possibility of IBD in their collection. I'm just baffled at how the report is worded and can't make sense of it myself.
 
There is a way to verify a IBD case without having the culture done.

You can have a blood test that is VERY inaccurate and very new. This test doesn't take as long to perform but it is less accurate than a blind drunk. Not to mention the cheapest one I have ever heard of is $600. Not a very smart investment when you cant even take the test a "proof".


The culture will take a week at the soonest to come back. Most cases take weeks. The reason is that there is only one clinic in the U.S that does this type of testing.

IBD is a very new thing and very very scary. Not much is known about it but the stuff we do know is horrendous. It is like a combination of cancer/aids all together. Whats even worse is that the most recent studies have been to find out how IBD is spread. There are cases of them being in two different cages twenty feet apart and spreading via mites.

This disease can, and will, wipe out whole collections in the thousands. Ibd is not curable and can hide dormant in boas. That is the sole reason you must cull every boid in a collection if one is diagnosed. Unfortunatly pythons are not as lucky. Boas can carry this terrible disease and suffer no ill side effects. However pythons that get IBD will die. There is no helping pythons that get this disease.

I am not sure if Nick knows how serious crying wolf is? However everyone that reads this thread will know.

Here are some links

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SzR3fx4BLc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBHmHgfAlao&feature=related
 
dheideman said:
from Wendy Finkle [email protected]
to Diana Heideman <[email protected]>

<snip> When i say force fed "small" rat, i mean SMALL rat... like, weanling rat... something i would feed my young ball python. Let me know if you have any other questions since i cant post.
Click to expand...

thank you Wendy, that makes more sense. I am still concerned about force feeding a snake after only 3-4 weeks (boas can survive quite a while without food) but regardless..

I am going to hold off posting again in this thread again until I have the copy of the necropsy and pathology reports from my vet for my boa that just had the IBD testing done (they would not fax or email to me, it's in the mail and I hope to have it by Mon/Tues). Again, from the time I took my boa in, it was 24hrs for the necropsy results and 2 weeks for the pathology results (I only say this because according to the posted paperwork, Wendy's vet reported the euthanasia on 5/9 and IBD findings 5/10).
 
Devon Hodgins said:
The reason is that there is only one clinic in the U.S that does this type of testing.
Click to expand...

oops, I had to post again... that isn't quite true, there are at least 2. Dr Jacobson's in Univ. Florida and the one that did my testing, Dr Reavill at Zoo/Exotic Pathology Service in Sacramento, CA, however you may have meant blood testing in which case I believe you are correct, Dr Jacobson.
 
dheideman said:
---

from Wendy Finkle [email protected]

I think this whole situation has gotten blown WAY out of proportion.
Click to expand...

Way out of porportion? Please tell me your kidding me.

Nick has done nothing but beat his chest about how he does not keep or sell sick animals. Then he sends the following email to one of the guys he buys his snakes from

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: Message about: 08 Female READY TO BREED NEXT SEASON
From: Nicholas Giavasis <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, March 25, 2011 11:22 am
To: [email protected]

Kev, Just saw a partial refund.......thoughtful.
What I will try to do over the next few days is try to sell this guy. If he sells for more than the balance I have invested, I will send you any overage. If he does not sell or if he remains ill/dies, I will let ya know. I increased temps and will monitor daily.
You're a Pro, all the way!
Thanks-
Nick
Click to expand...

Here's a thought... maybe you got the snake that he thought was ill or could die. How's that for porportions? You should be furious to find out that maybe.... just maybe... you're the one that shelled out your hard earned money and got a sick snake for it. One that he knew was sick and was just trying to off load on someone.

This is the part that pisses me off the most. I worked long and hard to bring a good name to the reptile industry... and there are several more folks out there like me that do/did the same. Then you got someone like Nick that tries to destroy what we love by doing underhanded crap like this.
 
Devon Hodgins said:
I am not sure if Nick knows how serious crying wolf is? However everyone that reads this thread will know.
Click to expand...

That is one of the reasons I went after Nick to post the proof or quit saying it. I knew what it could do... and what saying someone had it in their collection could do. As much as I'd like to see Nick out of this hobby/industry.... I would never say he had it in his collection without solid proof in hand when I said it.

I just wish other folks felt the same as I do.
 
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