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ED Clark (BAD GUY!!)

Jim,

I know, i just wanted to make sure you saw it, no offense.
This is an email the OP sent only hours after receiving animals.
sent July 1, 2:08 PM






Scrletbegonia88 said:
RE: Message about: Pair of Breeder Red Harlequin Crested Geckos.‏
From: anna diaz ([email protected])
Sent: Tue 7/01/08 2:08 PM
To: Ed Clark ([email protected])



Security scan upon download
070108134...JPG (22.0 KB), 1.JPG (27.7 KB), 2.JPG (24.7 KB)
im not really going off of color because geckos change from time to time and cameras sometimes alter it too. im am going off of marking and the two thing that led me to believe that it was a different gecko is 1) the side marking are different in the gecko you sent me they are missing. 2) in the orignal photo there are a few freckles/dal spots on the the head of the girl and they are missing on head of the gecko that was sent to me

anna
 
Good catch. Anna may not be good as a Prosecutor of her own best interests, much less how to organize her case here, but her July 1st email stating her concern is enormously prompt. As to whether its the same critter or not, if it were a chameleon, I'd pretend to be the expert. I therefore defer to the gecko folks, and survey says overwhelmingly that its not the same female.

I feel like I'm running for President .. flip flop ... flip flop.
 
The time frame is important when one considers things such as health, accidental deaths, etc. and not when it pertains to the wrong animal being shipped; that is just a seller trying to absolve himself through a technicality. When the wrong animal, sex, genetics are sent there should be no "statue of limitations" whatsoever. Once it is noticed by the buyer it has to be rectified by the seller. I've always found funny when sellers state in their ad that the buyer has 24 hours to determine the sex of the animal or if not the guarantee is void.
 
Otter_23 said:
Lucille,
People that raise/breed cresteds are saying it is not the same gecko, people that have limited or no experience gecko are saying it could be the same. I would put my trust in those that work with cresteds in which we are postive it is not the same gecko. Once again sending another sub par crested or one that may not even turn out red is not a resolution. Anna has stated she wants a refund. To make the customer happy he could have been honest to begin with and offered a refund or partial refund instead of ignoring her emails and calls. It astounds me that you are giving him a pass on this.

I agree.

I was not aware that it was not possible at all for the cream to dissapear on SOME geckos ( not all) They are saying that it DOES NOT CHANGE.

So my stance on this is the same. Let the experts talk here, they know what they are talking about. And im going to have to side with them.

Ed, if you know that female isnt the same, please, address this issue.
 
It was a good point that someone made about the gecko folk seeing differences, and the non gecko folk not seeing them.
 
Alicia,

LOL ..... and in all fairness to myself and others and conclusions, any OP with a negative thread starter has the obligation to document their case as best they can initially if they expect support here. It took some shoving to get Anna to cough it up.

We're going to disagree here Dan:

The time frame is important when one considers things such as health, accidental deaths, etc. and not when it pertains to the wrong animal being shipped; that is just a seller trying to absolve himself through a technicality. When the wrong animal, sex, genetics are sent there should be no "statue of limitations" whatsoever. Once it is noticed by the buyer it has to be rectified by the seller. I've always found funny when sellers state in their ad that the buyer has 24 hours to determine the sex of the animal or if not the guarantee is void.

With regards to wrong animal, sex, etc (not genetics), IMMHO there has to be a "statute of limitations" as you put it. The seller has just as much a right, after the expiration of the days allowed in a TOS, to be protected from a buyer who might be dishonest, mix up animals, provide poor husbandry, etc, as the buyer has from the seller. If the buyer does not like the time frame afforded by the TOS to verify the animal and the sex, then don't buy it !! I will not dispute that a "good" seller will extend certain things based on circumstance, but if there's an agreed upon deadline, it is the fair default fall-back position if they can't work something out. Otherwise, I agree with you 99% of the time :)
 
Jim,

This has been discussed in extense in another thread (which of course my memory doesn't recall ;) ) It's understandable the seller needs protection against bad husbandry practices. That's pretty much standard, some give 24-h, some 48, some a week or even more depending on the individual, and the hardiness of the species in question. Now, once that time frame elapses if the buyer contacts him stating that there was a mistake in the animal being delivered or the wrong sex in MHO this has to be taken care of. With most species there's even a price differential between males and females which makes the "mistake" even worse. Sending males for females are among the most common "mistakes" we see in the industry. Very seldom have we witnessed the other way around. As far as the wrong animal goes IMO again it is also very important. In this case in particular even moreso as there is a difference in the color of the animals during the daylight hours or when they are fired-up at night. Similarly, Anna selected this gecko because its genetics. It was picked-up because of its looks and because it was going to be used in her breeding programs. As stated before this was not "a crested gecko" she wanted as pet (even then it would not be justified) but "the gecko" advertised in the picture. Had it been advertised generically (e.g. "crested geckos for sale") then it would have been a different story. Furthermore, sometimes people let animals be for a couple of days in order not to stress them out, and only once they are established they take a closer look at them.

Best,

Dan G.
 
My first argument will always be the parameters agreed upon first, the TOS. Whatever is agreed upon, it will not be limitless, and while we may disagree with what is fair to all, it is still to be agreed before the purchase. We agree that the seller has an absolute obligation to endeavor to ship the right animal properly sexed. Your posts do not put any onus on the buyer to confirm that they got what they paid for until it suits them (I exclude genetics with hets from this debate). So I ask you, is there a time limit ? One day ... week ... month .. year ? I think your argument has no merit if you cannot define that parameter.

Some species are difficult to sex. Some of us are stupid which only makes it more difficult. And some species produce hermaphrodites or "none of the aboves" regularly where it takes time to determine such, and is not apparent as a juvenile when sold. We see smaller animals often sold too young to be sexed, where it is agreed upon in advance, often stated in the ad, that "sex cannot be guaranteed". How is that any different from "you have seven days to make a TOS claim, to include verifying sex, after which all obligatoins by the seller expire"?

Like I said, we are just going to have to disagree on the above, it would seem. It also does not apply in this case, as Anna was not satisfied that she got the right animal, and reported it almost immediately (although it took a while to determine that). She needs to be in full agreement with Ed's solution, to include satisfactory communications from Ed, or the option needs to be return the animal for a refund, where most of us feel he should pay shipping as well, as the gecko powers say its not the same animal. Cheers.
 
another comparison of the patterning in the mid-dorsal section.

Ed.jpg

Anna.jpg


clearly not the same.

IMO offering a free baby gecko does not resolve this situation.
 
Futher more i will have to take money out of my own pockets to have x-rays done to the female to make sure she will be able to breed. i do not know how bad her hip problems are and i do not know how big of a possibility its will be for her to become egg bound.
 
Jaybee said:
I've been keeping cream-backed cresties for only two years, but I am 99% sure that the cream markings (as seen on the sides of the gecko) do not just go away, and small areas of cream dorsal areas do not just go missing.

Yes, the gecko's main body may go from red to brown. Or from olive to black. Or from yellow to tan. But those cream markings are a "stuck" pattern that don't change (or at least, do not disappear) once the gecko reaches adulthood. I have a cream female who has a skull-shaped pattern on her back and it never changes; it doesn't lessen, it doesn't get brighter, bits of it don't disappear, and it doesn't darken, whether the non-cream skin around it is fired up or not.

Cresties may gain more cream as they age from hatch to adulthood, but you more than likely will not see changes in the cream after that, especially over a matter of a couple of months.

To those of you who are still doubtful, if the extreme difference in the side markings are not enough proof, please look again at the photos in the area marked with a blue arrow. There is a notch missing from the area on the top gecko that is not missing from the original photo. In my experience, areas of cream do not just get up and walk away. Short of being scarred off in a fight or something, that notch should be in both pictures.

buenosnotches.jpg


WingedWolf: That _type_ of pattern, broken pinstriping, is pretty common now that pinstriping is so hot with cresties. Pinstripe parents kick out imperfect pinstripes and they are generally sold for less than a full pinner. It is not terribly unique anymore. They do look similar. Not the same.

I cannot say whether Ed accidentally sent the wrong gecko or did it on purpose, or if the OP is trying to pull something funny. But those pics are not of the same gecko. The male seems to be the same, no question. The female is not.

That side-by-side picture does make it a LOT more clear, thanks. The patterns don't look the same when matched up that closely, I guess it was a superficial similarity (I was wrong, and thanks for helping. lol).
 
First it was boas and pythons, and I did not care.
Then it was leopard geckos, and I did not care.
Next up, bearded dragons, and once again, I didn't care.
Now it's crested geckos, and I still don't care.

The minute you 'designer-morph-freaks' start to keep Stenodactylus or Pachydactylus geckos I'll hunt down each and every one of you and crap in all your cages. :)

Clearly not the same animal. But is it a healthy animal that's a good representation of the species? Not red enough? Paint it. Then you can have as much unnatural red coloring as you like.

/flame on
 
Scrletbegonia88 said:
Futher more i will have to take money out of my own pockets to have x-rays done to the female to make sure she will be able to breed. i do not know how bad her hip problems are and i do not know how big of a possibility its will be for her to become egg bound.

Anna Diaz
7646 Milton, Apt. D
Whittier, Ca. 90605

562 447-0810

[email protected]

I'm begining to wonder if the person speaking on this thread is the Anna Diaz I sent a beautiful perfect pair of Crested Geckos to?

Why would you have to put money out of your pockets for X-rays?

There are NO hip problems, could it possibly look like that because she laid a set of fertile eggs about a week before I shipped her to you?

I told you before you purchased the pair they were together breeding, you took so long paying for the pair she laid her first set of eggs with me while I waited to recieve your payment.

I was up front with you all the way.

I made you an offer of a free baby red crestie that I would pay shipping for to you and you agreed to that. I asked you if that would make you happy and satisfied and you agreed.

So I will send that red crestie when I feel its safe to ship it.
 
Ed Clark said:
Anna Diaz
7646 Milton, Apt. D
Whittier, Ca. 90605

562 447-0810

[email protected]

I'm begining to wonder if the person speaking on this thread is the Anna Diaz I sent a beautiful perfect pair of Crested Geckos to?

Why would you have to put money out of your pockets for X-rays?

There are NO hip problems, could it possibly look like that because she laid a set of fertile eggs about a week before I shipped her to you?

I told you before you purchased the pair they were together breeding, you took so long paying for the pair she laid her first set of eggs with me while I waited to recieve your payment.

I was up front with you all the way.

I made you an offer of a free baby red crestie that I would pay shipping for to you and you agreed to that. I asked you if that would make you happy and satisfied and you agreed.

So I will send that red crestie when I feel its safe to ship it.

Any comment for all of the "expert" Crested breeders that say you sent her the wrong female?
 
Scrletbegonia88 said:
i honestly dont feel he would give me a refund and cause the gecko is gravid. she was already shipped gravid


There are NO hip problems, could it possibly look like that because she laid a set of fertile eggs about a week before I shipped her to you?


So who is lying?
 
Do Crested's deposit multiple clutches from one breeding? I didn't know that they can drop a fertile set, hatch it and then drop a second fertile set. Wouldn't that create problems of possible sperm retention if bred to multiple males?
 
Ed Clark said:
I was up front with you all the way.
No you weren't! You sold her one gecko, and then shipped her a different gecko that is of lesser quality. How in the world is that being "up front?"

Sounds to me like you tried to take advantage of someone whom you perceived to be a newbie. :NoNo:

Honesty is NOT your strong suit, Ed.
 
gant77 said:
Do Crested's deposit multiple clutches from one breeding? I didn't know that they can drop a fertile set, hatch it and then drop a second fertile set. Wouldn't that create problems of possible sperm retention if bred to multiple males?

Yes they do retain sperm. Most people only breed them in colonies of 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 because if you have more than one mature male in an enclosure at a time they will most likely fight. If you pulled the one male out and put in a different one it would be difficult to know who the actual father is unless the males were different morph types then you can get an idea from how the hatchlings look. After removing a male some females I have had have laid up to 3 fertile clutches without additional breeding.
 
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