Ed Clark,don't buy frogs from him!

[Seamus Haley]

The breeder not "producer" of this frog is sending me one free of charge from the same batch as the one that E.D. purchased the one he sent me.
I have provided answers to everyone's questions and E.D. still refuses to answer mine because he knows that he has lied more than once and withheld information.
I did this to help people and those who choose not to heed that warning, well that is what free will is all about.
Since it is apparent that so many members of this thread are sick of it I won't post the results here, after all it doesn't matter.

If I am reading that post correctly, you were contacted by an individual with an offer of a replacement frog... and that individual is sending a frog that was from the same clutch that the frog Ed sent was from? Meaning someone has contacted you to state that Ed bought the frog from them, rather than producing it as he stated? One question, since that edges very close to the BOI rules that prohibit anonymous third party quotations... Who is it that contacted you to make that offer and claim they were the breeder?

While it may not have an impact on Ed's TOS or this situation, it would be proof of misrepresentation and he would be hung up for it.

If you decide not to post the results of the tests that you were so certain would be the damning evidence about his stock, people will assume that it either; doesn't exist or that the results were counter to the results you anticipated/wanted.

 

[John E Dove]

Ms. Brown,
Who is this breeder?

 

[GOLDENSERPENT]

I could not resist after the last post/
I guess we all know the results of the lab test then. NEGATIVE.
She wont post them probably because they confirm that the frog did not have this fungus.

I am curious about frog hepatitis though. Does it mean the frog has a diseased liver or literally hepatitis like we get? Forgive me for asking but I never heard of a reptile/amphibian getting hepatitis. I know there is a fish herpes, tuberculosis in fish. Does anyone know the answer to this?
Thanks

 

[jayefbe]

Producing "evidence" that is so wonderfully effective at exposing Ed, or E.D. as you so cleverly call him (is name-calling a side-effect of having a heart for animals?) could do nothing but vindicate your animal-loving, vet-tech know-it-all ways. Instead, you choose to allude to supposed evidence. If you have it, show it and you will be applauded while everyone rises up and exclaims, "Ed, get it, you have erectile dysfunction!". If you don't share this information that you're privy to, you will be laughed out of town, and only seen as an argumentative and immature person that resorted to the most desperate and pathetic of argument techniques.

After all, I don't think your love for animals would allow you to hide damning evidence against Ed, no matter how angry or jaded you are.

 

[LauraB]

First, let me qualify ... I've never purchased from Ed nor ever engaged in any conversation, whether by forum posts, PM or email with Ed. And thank you for posting the necropsy, Kelly. Gender was indeed established.

Oh yeah, the blame is always on the customer in your case.

Evidently not ALWAYS. After all, the White's was a replacement for the first DOA and Ed did pick up the shipping cost on it.

That said, I see where you posted this:
http://fatfrogs.7.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?p=92601&highlight=#92601
Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:37 am Post subject:
No, that is another lie Ed.
I did everything right.
You can't make me feel guilty about a frog with necrosis in it.
She was never healthy to begin with.
She was overfed

She obviously was a chunky little thing,the photos speak for themselves. I suppose I don't understand how a seriously or terminally ill frog could/would eat so well as to be overfed?
In my years of raising herps, one of the first signs of illness has always been a lack of appetite. White's do tend to have a propensity for obesity, hence their other charming name, Dumpy, but are frogs different than all the chams,turtles,dragons,iguanas,agamas and snakes I've owned? Does a seriously ill frog still have a healthy enough appetite to actually be overfed?
Even one so chock-full of deadly systemic infection and Hepatitus?
I know you are a relatively new frog keeper ... just out of curiosity, when did you acquire your first non-native, tropical frog? Was it this past April when you first acquired your Pacman?

The Hepatitus is moot. There is absolutely no reason (or proof) to support Ed actually would have known the frog had Hepatitus, so it is irrelevent.

I also concur with Seamus, your decision to refrain from posting the results of the CF test would certainly be counterproductive in proving the fugus either does or does not exist in Ed's collection. While I don't believe you pursued this simply to "help people" (your posts on fatfrog and here with monetary balances you've detailed and stated are owed to you coupled with your repeated posts asking Ed to "rectify" the situation would contradict that), it is in the best interests of frog community that you've followed through answering questions, posting the reports, etc.

And Dennis ... would you please pull the exif data on the photos of the White's PRIOR to the death photo? The exif data I show on the deceased frog jives perfectly with yours. I'm curious about the data you get on the photos Kelly took of the live frog after arrival (in comparison to the data I show on those, which I'm confused about).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Once again I start a post, step away for more than a few minutes and return to find I'm not only behind in reading, but my train of thoughts are now irrelevent and pointless ... and will likely go unanswered )

 

[Seamus Haley]

She obviously was a chunky little thing,the photos speak for themselves. I suppose I don't understand how a seriously or terminally ill frog could/would eat so well as to be overfed?
In my years of raising herps, one of the first signs of illness has always been a lack of appetite. White's do tend to have a propensity for obesity, hence their other charming name, Dumpy, but are frogs different than all the chams,turtles,dragons,iguanas,agamas and snakes I've owned? Does a seriously ill frog still have a healthy enough appetite to actually be overfed?

Laura, I know you were posing the questions based on Kelly's statements that the frog was obese and that in addressing her comments, you were not offering your own opinion.

But for anyone who may not be as familiar with whites, that frog was not remotely obese. In the wild, whites do go through seasonal periods where the avaliability of food and activity level of the frog can vary dramatically and for this reason, they build up fat stores quite readily when food is avaliable. Obesity can be an issue with the species if they are overfed or fed inappropriate items on too regular a basis. The overall weight of the animal can be easily distinguished by the timpanic roll though- the fatty tissue above the timpanum (ear). For a healthy maintenence weight, the timpanic roll should cover somewhere between about a quarter and one half of the timpanum- with weight changes anticipated if they are seasonally cycled to breed. If the timpanic roll is absent or covering less than about a quarter of the timpanum, the frog is underweight and should have it's caloric intake beefed up. If the timpanic roll is covering more than about half the timpanum (without a good reason, like deliberatly making them weighty prior to cycling for breeding) then the frog's weight would be considered obese for general maintenence.

The frog pictured was neither obese or underweight, showing an appropriate bulk to the body and a visible timpanic roll right in that healthy range.

 

[shrap]

The exif data

Exif data is not always conclusive. Take my camera for example. The internal battery has failed and it does not save the date anymore when the camera gets shut off. So unless I take the time to manually set the date every single time I turn on my camera it defaults to January 2000. And I NEVER bother to manually reset the date. So every picture I have taken with my camera in the last 3 or 4 years says January 2000.

 

[LauraB]

Seamus and Sammy

Laura, I know you were posing the questions based on Kelly's statements that the frog was obese and that in addressing her comments, you were not offering your own opinion.

True. And I agree, that frog was nowhere near obese. I've seen many seriously obese White's and she did not qualify. That frog, IMO, was simply healthy looking. Kelly's statement that Ed overfed her was just indicative of Kelly's 1) inexperience and 2) likely simply parroting what others had stated to her on the other forum.

Exif data is not always conclusive. Take my camera for example. The internal battery has failed and it does not save the date anymore when the camera gets shut off. So unless I take the time to manually set the date every single time I turn on my camera it defaults to January 2000

Yes, Sammy .. my camera defaults exactly the same as yours and I realize data is not totally conclusive. And that may be the explanation for the curious data. My inquisitive mind sometimes travels places that are better left unexplored, yet I'm still left uninformed and wanting to know, if for no other reason than to learn
Sammy, if you are able, take a look and edumacate me. I'm not being accusatory of Kelly necessarily, mostly just curious.

 

[DaveyFig]

Hepatitis isn't something that kills frogs in one day either. You also (unless you are Superman) can not diagnose this disease with the naked eye. Try again.

I am not sure what I am supposed to "Try again". Ask another question ? Try again to understand?

The necropsy shows hepatitis right? If hepatitis doesn't kill in a day then it had to have had hepatitis when it arrived.

I didn't diagnose anything with a naked eye, although I didn't use any kind of magnification device to read the vet report.

I realize that the environment was right for bacteria growth. I wasn't addressing that because that has been said, and I agree. It is possible that the bacteria could have taken over after it died, ok. I just don't think the enclosure produced hepatitis that the vet report shows.

Ed tests and treats everything for everything! His ball pythons and lizards don't have parasites, and his frogs don't have fungus. How do we know? He told us!? He has reports on all of these tests and treatments, but wont show 1?

He told the OP that the frog wouldn't need to be treated. I am just reading too much into it I guess, but that almost sounds like a health guarantee.
I know the OP was talking about CF, and there really is no way that Ed would know that frog had hepatitis, but it did.

If you sell a snake and it has IBD (I know its a stretch, and crappy over dramatic comparison), and just simply say "That snake looked healthy when I sent it, here are the pics that the buyer took the day they got it with an email of satisfaction, and all of my snakes have been tested for IBD" do you think you would be able to just walk away from that?

Would you not be asked for proof? Would your animals not be looked at more closely? Couldn't you expect to be asked for proof that your animals were healthy.

I think that if people are going to demand results from the OP, then Ed should have to produce something that says that the frog he sent was treated for the fungus.

If the OP's results are negative, then Ed can say "See, I told ya!"

Do you think that if the OP posts positive results that Ed will be able to provide a treatment record to clear himself? I would like to see a treatment record before the results are posted.

 

[Steven Busch]

I just ordered and received a group of cb budgett's, fantasy, pixie, Aussie blue dumpys, cornutas and ornates to sell. The breeder of the aussie blues sent me one extra, in the photo below, to pass on to Kelly as a replacement for the one that died after a few hours in her possession. They felt she was being unjustly harassed and being needlessly raked through the coals. They did not want this unfortunate situation turning her from amphibian keeping. This frog was from the same spawning, last fall, as the one that died.

I have been around and around with ED on the breeding issue. ED has lied directly to me in the past about breeding frogs I was buying from him (I have documentation). This has already been aired. I still do not understand why someone needs to take credit for the efforts of others to inflate their own personal ego and impotence, but it seems ED feels the need.

Kelly has gone the extra steps to determine why the frog died...she was pushed into doing that. As to chytrid testing many know I have spent a lot of energy and money to increase the awareness of this epidemic in the captive bred frog market, as well as wild caught market and to encourage frog keepers to treat for this disease. Chytrid testing takes at least 4 to 6 weeks for results. It is every keepers responsibility to be proactive. Finger pointing is not helpful. My problem with ED is that he publicly and privately disparaged my efforts as a futile attempt for me to increase sales, yet he now promotes his own sales by saying he treats for chytrid, if that's what the buyer wants to hear. Perhaps it shouldn't, but this irritates me. I will have no further comment on the Kelly ED situation as it is resolved as it will ever be.

 

[deborahbroadus]

That is GORGEOUS!! Now that does look like a healthy frog! It is so cute. I am glad that someone helped her.

I did not feel that she did anything that caused the death, but more experienced people than I believe that stress killed the frog.

btw: I agree with you assessment of the situation.

 

[critical bill]

Well...I don't know. It could be that Ed does produce these frogs and he simply ordered some for replacement and future sales because he was out of stock. It could also be likely that Ed is simply lying again and he doesn't produce these frogs.

I think the easiest way to predict the future is to look at the past. Ed has a long of telling lies. If I were to bet I'd bet he was lying.

But I'd like to be fair here today. Can the actual breeder of that frog step forward to claim without a shadow of doubt that he produced that frog and that Ed did not?

And I have another good question. Why is it that everyone keeps selling frogs to Ed if they know he is a lying scumbag and is lying to his customers by taking the credit as the person who produced them? More so still is that there is even documentation about this to bury the bastard and yet people still keep selling him frogs - enabling him to perpetuate this fraud.

WTF IS GOING ON HERE?

 

[Mooing Tricycle]

And I have another good question. Why is it that everyone keeps selling frogs to Ed if they know he is a lying scumbag and is lying to his customers by taking the credit as the person who produced them?

I can tell you that one all by myself chuck!

$$$$$

 

[jayefbe]

Well...I don't know. It could be that Ed does produce these frogs and he simply ordered some for replacement and future sales because he was out of stock. It could also be likely that Ed is simply lying again and he doesn't produce these frogs.

I think the easiest way to predict the future is to look at the past. Ed has a long of telling lies. If I were to bet I'd bet he was lying.

But I'd like to be fair here today. Can the actual breeder of that frog step forward to claim without a shadow of doubt that he produced that frog and that Ed did not?

And I have another good question. Why is it that everyone keeps selling frogs to Ed if they know he is a lying scumbag and is lying to his customers by taking the credit as the person who produced them? More so still is that there is even documentation about this to bury the bastard and yet people still keep selling him frogs - enabling him to perpetuate this fraud.

WTF IS GOING ON HERE?

I'd like to second Bill's request to find out wtf is going on. Now that there seems to be some real evidence against Ed and now people are shutting their mouths? Why? What kind of weird hypocritical stance is that?

 

[Ed Clark]

Kelly has gone the extra steps to determine why the frog died...she was pushed into doing that.

She was pushed into this thread and all this drama by a guy from Texas that we both know?

Is that what you are saying Steve?

 

[LakesideBoas]

Autoclave; an apparatus in which steam under pressure effects sterilization. Wet, Heat, Humidity, no bacteria!
LOL sorry I could not resist the challenge. I do not disagree that Mr. Clark seems to be innocent of any business misconduct, this time.

Ewww! Please tell me you don't put dead things in the autoclave...

 

[GOLDENSERPENT]

I'd like to second Bill's request to find out wtf is going on. Now that there seems to be some real evidence against Ed and now people are shutting their mouths? Why? What kind of weird hypocritical stance is that?

The only problem with that is that the thread here is that Ed sold her a sick frog not that he was or was not the breeder.
there are many people in this business that pretend to have bred animals that they in fact did not so Ed is not the only one but that should be for a different thread and not this one. IMO.

 

[LauraB]

Good points Chuck ... which is why I make it a point only to buy from the person who actually bred the animal I want. Alicia is correct, she gave the obvious and simple answer.... $$$

To be fair, however, this long, drawn-out thread is about whether Ed knowingly sold Kelly a sick frog and owes her the costs of the frog, shipping, vet and associated tests costs.
Let's say for the sake of argument, he did in fact, purchase the frog from another breeder and then sent the frog to Kelly. Does that mean the possibility could exist that the original breeder of Kelly's deceased frog (and her new frog) may have some rampant infection in their collection? Of course, we don't know how long Ed had possession of Kelly's frog before he sent it to her, so that's nothing more than something else to muddy the already opaque water ....

And I apologize for bringing it up again, but I have to chuckle. I look at the photo of Kelly's new frog, and Lars' keen analysis of Kelly's original frog comes to mind, in his own words, NOT mine:
"I checked the pictures of the White's when he was alive and zoomed them:
The frog has a very drowsy glimpse, the left forarm and wrist are reddish and swollen,
.... and the skin is reddish on some parts.
The frog is very weak, check how he sits in the water bowl, he
can hardly support his body....
The sticky toe pads look bloodshot, especially on the hands."

Better not let Lars critique that new one! LOL

 

[Ed Clark]

Kelly has gone the extra steps to determine why the frog died...she was pushed into doing that.

Buckle up folks!

Kelly, were you pushed into the test and this thread and all this drama by Tommy Watson,aka Big Hydro as he is know on the frog forums?

What about that stupid crazy frog lady,she was talked into joining you with this bash fest right?

 

[Cat_72]

The only problem with that is that the thread here is that Ed sold her a sick frog not that he was or was not the breeder.
there are many people in this business that pretend to have bred animals that they in fact did not so Ed is not the only one but that should be for a different thread and not this one. IMO.

I disagree.

It all comes down to credibility, which if we are to believe what Ed says, he should have. If he has lied (again) about breeding this animal, what else is he lying about? Ed's credibility. or lack thereof, is completely relevant, IMO.

there are many people in this business that pretend to have bred animals that they in fact did not so Ed is not the only one

My kids learned at an early age that the excuse of "But everyone else is doing it!" isn't a legitimate excuse. Just because others may be doing it doesn't make it right, or any less of a lie.