Ed Clark,don't buy frogs from him!

[deborahbroadus]

What if the frog Ed sent isn't the one that got the necropsy? The vet said "There are areas of the skin with ulcerations and erosions" and I just don't see that from the pix.

Very strange.

Good point!

Looking back and forth though the pics it's very hard to determine even if the two pics are of the same frog.

 

[lanceheads]

One thing I noticed in the pictures of the exhibit.
Looks like he used paper towels for the substrate and it looked throughly soaked.
IMHO, I think that is over saturated with water which could lead to a bacterial buildup.

I have kept Litoria for about 20 years, and I never have kept them that moist. I spray them twice weekly. When you keep any frog that damp, it could lead to trouble, as they urinate/deficate on the substrate and it looks like it's housed in an Extoterra cage, which only has top-venilation. The air exchange is horrible for amphibians IMHO in those type of cages.
Thats my 2 cents.
Randal

 

[Ed Clark]

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From: k412
To: ed clark
Posted: 2 Aug 13, 2008 1:34 pm
Subject: QUESTIONS!
So, I totally LOVE him!

1. Can they fall? I walked out of my room for a while and when I came back he was on the fake rockpile thing, I'm scared he's gonna hurt himself.
2. When do I need to dust his crickets again, may I give him nightcrawler pieces? When he went to the bottom of the tank I thought maybe he was looking for food so I cut a piece of one and put it in, he turned the other way. He is so chunky already I just love it!
3. How were you feeding him? Should I just put some crickets in the bottom? I used to pull the hopper legs off of them for my other frogs when they were babies, or should I let them keep their legs so they can hop up to wherever he is?
4. How many should I feed him? Say, put 5 in at night for like 30 minutes and wait and watch?
Sorry to hit you with a bunch, this is all I can think of for now...
Let me know what you think about his new house too okay? Thank you Ed!

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[varnyard]

One thing I noticed in the pictures of the exhibit.
Looks like he used paper towels for the substrate and it looked throughly soaked.
IMHO, I think that is over saturated with water which could lead to a bacterial buildup.

True, however I think it would take longer then one day. In the first post it says Kelly had it one day, my question is can these ulcerations and erosions happen in one day? The pics of the frog when it was alive did not show them.

 

[Ed Clark]

Frogs are delicate creatures that need a knowledgable keeper to sustain their fragile life.

Everyone does not do well with frogs and alot of them are lost, its sad but it happens.

I was sorry to hear Kelly lost that frog but it was no fault of mine.

 

[lanceheads]

True Bobby.
Methinks this person hasn't had a lot of experience with amphibians though.
i.e. witness Ed's post #23.

 

[lanceheads]

True, however I think it would take longer then one day. In the first post it says Kelly had it one day, my question is can these ulcerations and erosions happen in one day? The pics of the frog when it was alive did not show them.

Usually, the ulcerations will be on the ventral side of an amphibian.

Randal

 

[varnyard]

True Bobby.
Methinks this person hasn't had a lot of experience with amphibians though.
i.e. witness Ed's post #23.

I have no doubt at all that they are fragile, and judging by her questions in Ed's post you speak of, she has not got a clue to the proper care of these delicate animals.

As it looks right now, I do not see Ed is to blame on this one. It would be very hard to guarantee an animal like this in the hands of someone that has no clue to the proper care. I will also add, many people that sell amphibians have no guarantee at all. This would be a case that could explain why; Kelly needs to do her homework before getting another animal that she knows nothing about. JMHO.

 

[lanceheads]

Ok, last post from me on this subject.

"Comment- The cause of death in this frog is due to bacterial septicemia. This is most likely the cause of the clinical signs. It is difficult to determine where the portal of entry might be for the bacteria, I suspect it is through lesions in the skin. There are areas of the skin with ulcerations and erosions and large numbers of bacteria present as well as large numbers of the bacteria being present within lymphatics in the dermis. No other specific disease agent is recognized."

The Vet that posted that posted his/her findings, is not wrong. However, amphibian diagnostics is still in the early stages of vets. Not much known about it. Amphibians DO asborb moisture, water, bacteria, etc through their skin, no surprise there, hence why the vet couldn't determine a port on entry. I suspect the keeper kept it too moist, didn't have proper air exchange, plus it was probably stressed due to shipping and put into a cage upon arrival, with rocks, cage furniture etc. and didn't have time to aclimate to it's new surroundings.

Randal

 

[Serafim]

The frog in the photos posted on fatfrogs looks pretty healthy to me. I do not see any abrasions or ulcers on the skin. If there was no guarantee on the sex and it arrived safely I think Ed lived up to his end of the transaction.

I kinda have a sick feeling in my stomach for siding with Ed on this one but the evidence supplied looks like he did his job. On another note I have purchased amphibians and had them shipped few people even offer live arrival guarantees..

 

[varnyard]

The frog in the photos posted on fatfrogs looks pretty healthy to me. I do not see any abrasions or ulcers on the skin. If there was no guarantee on the sex and it arrived safely I think Ed lived up to his end of the transaction.

I kinda have a sick feeling in my stomach for siding with Ed on this one but the evidence supplied looks like he did his job. On another note I have purchased amphibians and had them shipped few people even offer live arrival guarantees..

I could not agree more John, but in all fairness Ed is not looking like he is to blame on this one.

As for that sick feeling you speak of, I get every time I see someone with an animal they just got, and then try to find out the proper care. It kinda burns me up to no end, just sad it all I can say about this.

 

[varnyard]

just sad IS all I can say about this.

 

[SPJ]

Hate to say it but it doesn't look like Ed did anything wrong here.
Some people don't even offer a live arrival with frogs. Ed did and it appears it arrived alive, doesn't look like it has ulcers and he completed his end of the transaction as expected. Unfortunately it looks like it went to an inexperienced keeper with the wrong type of setup.
I don't think Ed is the bad guy here.

 

[jayefbe]

I want to know what this girl did with the frog the day she got it? What did she do that made her worry that she had put it under too much stress that it died?

When I get a new snake, the thing sits in a cage in quarantine (which is also a low traffic area) and doesn't get touched for at least a week, or until it's fed. And when I had frogs they were never held, I always considered them a look but don't touch animal. Anyways, it looks like the girl has a guilty conscience and is trying to pin the blame on anyone else.

 

[K412]

Wow, everyone moves fast here.
Firstly, the humidity in the enclosure was at 60%. It is slightly high but the ventilation was appropriate.
When I sent the pm to ask if they could fall and hurt themselves it was because when I checked on her she was on top of the rock on the bottom of the enclosure. This is where she stayed for the one day that I had her. I was very remorseful about the frog and initially felt very guilty until I realized that something must have been wrong. That is when I went to other forums to explain the whole story and ask more experienced keepers their opinions. I have other frogs and they are thriving.
How could there possibly be any type of necrosis in a healthy animal, not possible.
Someone asked if I had sent the frog to CA, no I did not, my Vet uses that one in particular and since I needed more than she could provide she sent her remains elsewhere.
I understand that it is a frog. I don't want anyone else to get one and have it die because it is very upsetting when a pet dies no matter what kind of animal it is.
Ed is now trying to blame me, however, the purpose of the necropsy was to ease my conscience and prove that I was not to blame and I am not to blame.
Apparently Ed resorts to name calling and hate speech, I however do not.
I just don't want any more frogs to die because he wants to make a dollar.
I did not know anything about faunaclassifieds prior to getting the frog from Ed.
I stated before that if I had I never would have ordered the first one.
Oh, the ornate did not bake on my porch at all. I was home the entire day waiting for the frog and opened the box right away. That one probably could have been saved by a cold pack if one were in the box which there was not.
Ed is all about the almighty dollar but I hold myself to a higher standard.

 

[K412]

I did not stress the frog, I was aware that they stress easily. The details are in my first post.
The enclosure was covered on 3 sides and in the corner of a low traffic area in my house.
THE BOTTOM LINE IS THE NECROPSY RESULTS.
I will post the results of the Chytrid test when I get them.

 

[John E Dove]

Please post a scanned copy of the Necropsy report as well as ALL communications you have had with Mr. Clark. It might go a long way toward proving your cae but at this point I am inclined to agree that Mr. Clark honored his Live Arrival.

 

[John E Dove]

PS don't forget the headers, times and dates, with the communications.

 

[porkchop48]

I Have to comment here.
When you get a frog you should QT it first regardless of who it came from. Not just throw it into a viv.
Monitor it's eating habbits and make sure it is healthy and eating well ( in a simple set up) before you stick it in a more elaborate setup.

The paper towels are way to wet and the do need a bit of circulation.
Most frogs dealers/ breeders offer arrive alive guarantee but that is it. It arrived alive. And in no way should he be responsible for the vet bills.

 

[varnyard]

I did not stress the frog, I was aware that they stress easily. The details are in my first post.
The enclosure was covered on 3 sides and in the corner of a low traffic area in my house.
THE BOTTOM LINE IS THE NECROPSY RESULTS.
I will post the results of the Chytrid test when I get them.

The bottom line is not the necropsy Kelly; this is clear in the fact that you contacted Ed after you received the frog asking questions on the proper care. I do not know, nor do I care how long you have kept frogs, however, if you are the expert that you claim to be, then you should have been wise enough to do the homework on the proper care long before making the purchase of a new animal.

A good keeper does the homework first, and if you would have done yours the frog might still be alive with no need of a necropsy. I will also add, you say the humidity in the enclosure was at 60%, which is not true, the pictures show the paper towels are very soaked and sopping wet. You are in the wrong place to try to pull the wool over eyes. You claimed the frog was awesome, then it went down hill in your care, and that’s the true bottom line.