Ed Clark,don't buy frogs from him!

[varnyard]

Kelly says the humidity in the enclosure was at 60%, lets all look at these pictures again. Everything in her cage is soaked, the plants, the rock that the frog is on is beaded with water, and the paper towels, everything is just sopping wet and soaked.

 

[lillyorchid]

60% humidity? HA! Riiight.
Sadly I wouldn't be surprised if that poor frog drowned in that cage with all of that water. Poor thing.

 

[John E Dove]

Good catch Mr. Hill!
I know my Anole enclosure has much less obvious signs of moisture and the humidity runs between 70%, when the lights pump and fan comes on in the morning, and 95% when everything shuts down at night. And I live in a climate where the relative humidity stays at 20% or less.

 

[spawn]

I felt I should chime in considering I have been keeping frogs for years, and many, many species. The excessive humidity wouldn't have killed the frog in a day - that's something that would wear away at a frog over the course of days/weeks, and we're allegedly talking about a no-more-than-2-day-period here. Bear in mind, frogs do endure 100% humidity situations on occasion during breeding season. Granted, it does seem closer to 100% than 60% [based on the pictures], but that's not gonna' do it in one day, unless it was really stressed from the shipping. The necropsy report is excessive, but if you're particularly interested in cause of death, I guess it'd be alright. Definitely not something Ed should reimburse Kelly for, since they didn't agree on it. Thirdly, can we get some confirmation on that email Ed posted where Kelly admitted to being a newb and blamed herself for the frog's death? If we get a screenshot/confirmation from Kelly on that, that pretty much seals the deal on who's to blame here. I'd be interested in seeing Kelly deny the email's authenticity as well [if that be the case], because, you know, that'd cause even more controversy. Pretty cut and dry at this point.

 

[K412]

I never claimed to be an expert. I did do my homework on the proper care of these frogs and did so. The pictures were taken shortly after the frog was put into the enclosure which is why the water is so prevalent. When I put the water into the bowl it spilled onto the floor of the cage which is why the paper towels were wet and that was taken care of as soon as he was off the bottom of the tank. The shelf is damp because I misted it before I picked up the bowl to put the frog up higher under the light where it was warm and then left it alone. That was the only animal in the tank. I don't have a scanner but would pictures work? I will take pictures of the necropsy report and post those if it is satisfactory.
I did not ask Ed about the proper care after I recieved the frog I asked months prior. I did ask about dusting the crickets because I didn't know the last time he had dusted them or what size the frog was eating at that time. I asked what his methods were to be able to do the same and follow the same regemin that the frog had been on. I wanted to use tongs becasue she had no interest in eating.I got my care information from pollywog care sheets and many other places, mainly other members of the fatfrog forum who have these frogs.
I agree that he honored his live arrival guarantee and said as much. I also stated that he sold me an infected animal which he did.
Since Ed posted copies of additional pm's I will post his respones in their entirety beginning in June.

From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:32 am
Subject: ship
Kelly, I need to wait till it cools down some. hope you understand.

From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:26 am
Subject: Re: Hi.
Will send you 1 of my CB Australian blue phase whites then.

just ran out of cold packs but have some on the way and will get back to you when they get here
From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:33 am
Subject: Aussie whites
They are the easiest frog in the world tp keep, paper towels and branches with a place to hide. eat loads of crickets. small exo or zoo med is perfect and you can add a UVB light.

From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:31 am
Subject: Re: Aussie whites
They dont need UVB, coco works well and a lite will heat that small cage if you want.

From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:42 am
Subject: Re: Aussie whites
you can use a medium hagen heat pad or a 50 watt lite bulb to heat it.

From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:15 pm
Subject: Re: Aussie whites
Planning on shipping to you on monday, if you wont be home tuesday to recieve the whites let me know what day you will be there.

Yea I have had it with the constant argueing and other BS on this forum.



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From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:56 am
Subject: Re: Aussie whites
Delivery to you on thursday is best. sat delivery is too risky, if it does not make it to you on sat it sits in a fedex warehouse all day sunday.

From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:42 pm
Subject: Re: Aussie whites
Large dusted crickets.

From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:33 pm
Subject: Re: Aussie whites
Its better to wait, let me know when you are gonna be in the 80's

you are getting my keeper blue phase and I would hate to hear it died.

From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:51 am
Subject: Re: Wednesday the 13th
Ban ship tue or wed, tell me what day. weather is perfect.

adult crickets, hes about 2 1/2 inches....big baby or juvi

From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:52 am
Subject: Re: Wednesday the 13th
No reason to treat that frog.
From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:46 pm
Subject: Re: Are we good to go?
will be there before 10:30 am, they never knock so be sitting near your front door.

I sent it to the address I sent to last time.
From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:56 pm
Subject: Re: Are we good to go?
Thanks, and it is a he. wait till you hear him calling!


From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:01 pm
Subject: Re: QUESTIONS!
k412 wrote:
So, I totally LOVE him!

1. Can they fall? I walked out of my room for a while and when I came back he was on the fake rockpile thing, I'm scared he's gonna hurt himself.
2. When do I need to dust his crickets again, may I give him nightcrawler pieces? When he went to the bottom of the tank I thought maybe he was looking for food so I cut a piece of one and put it in, he turned the other way. He is so chunky already I just love it!
3. How were you feeding him? Should I just put some crickets in the bottom? I used to pull the hopper legs off of them for my other frogs when they were babies, or should I let them keep their legs so they can hop up to wherever he is?
4. How many should I feed him? Say, put 5 in at night for like 30 minutes and wait and watch?
Sorry to hit you with a bunch, this is all I can think of for now...
Let me know what you think about his new house too okay? Thank you Ed!


Just dust some large crickets and put them in with him late in the day.

like 8-10 large crickets at a time. I never feed them worms but you can try. he likes wax worms also.

They are tought, they jump from the top of tank onto the bottom chasing food.

Hes a CB Australian blue phase whites.

From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:43 pm
Subject: Re: QUESTIONS!
He should eat right away, I would at least try.

that foam is not toxic after it gets hard.

they like hollow logs to sleep in.

k412 wrote:
Thank you very much!
I got a big piece of wood to put in the middle so he will have something to climb on. I have seen him walking around a little but mostly he's hiding.
Should I feed him tonight or wait a day?
I also got this flexi wood fake wood thing that won't absorb any excretions, thought it would be a good idea but when I stuck it in the background thing it isn't very sturdy. I bent it so it rests on the big piece of wood in the middle so I think it's alright. Do I have to worry about any of the foam stuff getting on him if it comes loose?




All times are GMT

From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:34 am
Subject: Re: QUESTIONS!
Dont worry, he will come around. shipping is rought on them.


From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:50 am
Subject: Re: QUESTIONS!
I'm serious about this.

No more pics, leave him alone for a couple days to settle in!

Tought love baby.


From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:04 am
Subject: Re: FUCKING CRICKETS!!!!!!!!!!
No he will not eat off tongs, put crickets in cage and the frog will eat them.

From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:07 am
Subject: Re: I'm sorry Ed. I'm a shitty keeper.
It was probably not your fault....something happened? what who knows.

Dont get down on yourself, I happens to us all.


From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:53 am
Subject: Re: Just wondering
Kelly, I guarantee live arrival only, no its not possible for that frog to have anything at all.

I also paid for the fedex priority shipping to you which cost me alot.



From: ed clark
To: k412
Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:41 am
Subject: Re: Just wondering
The shipping was on me with pleasure.

Really wish that frog was still with you.

I do not keep my sent items just the responses. I should but I'm sure that Ed has them. He assures me that the frog was a male but it was a female.
He stated that it was not possible for the frog to have had anything wrong but septic is obviously not good. He never claimed that I was to blame until I posted the results and the issue here. Now he has posted this;
http://fatfrogs.7.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?p=92599#92599
What I am stating is that the frog that he sold me was very ill. They hide their illnesses until stressed this is something that most people know and I am and was aware of which is why I had the necropsy done. I did not want it on my conscience that this frog died because of something that I did. I provided a sterile enviornment although perhaps too large in the beginning but as sick as this frog was she would have died no matter the size of the enclosure. Spilling some water on the bottom of the tank would not have caused this frog to die and neither would the size of it. What killed this frog is the fact that it had a bacterial infection that turned septic. The reason that I stated the necropsy report was the bottom line is because I stating that he sold me a sick frog.
I will post this thread again because it has the most detailed information.
http://talkto.thefrog.org/index.php?action=vthread&forum=4&topic=16933
This frog did not get an infection and turn septic in 24 hours.
Look at the report again as well.

Kidney- The kidney is moderatly autolyzed. There are numerous small thin bacteria which are proliferating throughout the renal sections. Moderate numbers of them are confined to the capillary loops of the glomeruli although aggregates are also present within the interstitium
Spleen- moderately to severely autolyzed. It is also congested. The previously described bacteria can be identified with macrophages of the spleen. These are small punctate to short rod-shaped structures recognized within the cytoplasm.
Pancreas- severely autolyzed
Intestines- severely autolyzed
Possible Stomach- severely autolyzed
Lung- There are bacteria recognized within the capillaries of the faveoli.
Liver- mild multifocal areas of acute necrosis with fibrin deposition and the previously described bacteria. Granulocytic leukocytes are also identified although these are rare in number. The Liver is moderatly autolyzed.
Heart- The epicardium of the heart is supporting large numbers of the previously described bacteria.
Coelomic cavity fat pads- The previously described bacteria can be identified within some of the vascular spaces of the fat pads.
Skin- There are sections of the skin where there is extensive loss of the epithelium and large numbers of bacteria are proliferating throughout the areas with the epithelium as well as into the superficial dermis. There is also the subdermal lymph vessels and sacs containing the previously described bacteria and some cellular debris. Multifocally the epithelium is supporting an increased cellularity in areas where there is cell necrosis and fibrin as well as the bacteria. This cellularity is of granulocytic leukocytes.
Stomach- mildly to moderately autolyzed. The above described bacteria can be identified within vessels of the submucosa and mucosa.
Diagnosis-
Multiple organs- bactermia
Liver- Multifocal moderate acute hepatitis
Skin- Multifocal acute erosive and ulcerative dermatitis
Comment- The cause of death in this frog is due to bacterial septicemia. This is most likely the cause of the clinical signs. It is difficult to determine where the portal of entry might be for the bacteria, I suspect it is through lesions in the skin. There are areas of the skin with ulcerations and erosions and large numbers of bacteria present as well as large numbers of the bacteria being present within lymphatics in the dermis. No other specific disease agent is recognized.


If I had fed her something that infected her stomach, intestines, liver, spleen, pancreas, kidney and heart than I would absolutely be to blame. If I did not do any research on the proper care for these frogs the members of talktothfrog.org would have told me as much and so would the members of fatfrogs when I asked them. I am not an irresponsible pet owner nor am I reckless with an animals life. The animal's life is more important than making money from it.
This frog never ate in the 24 hours that I had her. What would cause necrosis and hepatitis in her liver if she never ate for me? She had a preexisting condition. She was sick before I got her. There was nothing toxic noted so it was not from the enviornment that she was in.
If she did not ingest or absorb anything while in my possession what other possibility is there besides her being ill prior to her arrival? Too much humidity? I indicated the same percentage on the link above.
My sole statement is that I was sold a sick frog by Ed Clark.
Again, if I take a legible photo of the necropsy report and that is acceptable I will gladly do so. If anyone here has a scanner and wants a copy to see and post for themselves I will happily mail one tomorrow.

 

[K412]

I felt I should chime in considering I have been keeping frogs for years, and many, many species. The excessive humidity wouldn't have killed the frog in a day - that's something that would wear away at a frog over the course of days/weeks, and we're allegedly talking about a no-more-than-2-day-period here. Bear in mind, frogs do endure 100% humidity situations on occasion during breeding season. Granted, it does seem closer to 100% than 60% [based on the pictures], but that's not gonna' do it in one day, unless it was really stressed from the shipping. The necropsy report is excessive, but if you're particularly interested in cause of death, I guess it'd be alright. Definitely not something Ed should reimburse Kelly for, since they didn't agree on it. Thirdly, can we get some confirmation on that email Ed posted where Kelly admitted to being a newb and blamed herself for the frog's death? If we get a screenshot/confirmation from Kelly on that, that pretty much seals the deal on who's to blame here. I'd be interested in seeing Kelly deny the email's authenticity as well [if that be the case], because, you know, that'd cause even more controversy. Pretty cut and dry at this point.

I do not deny that initially I felt guilty for this frog's death. I was very upset at the thought of having killed this frog. I would not deny the authenticity of the pm from fatfrogs.
After she died so suddenly I went to tttf and asked a larger group of more experienced keepers if I had done something wrong. I had the necropsy done to relieve myself of feeling guilty. This was the first tree frog that I had ever kept and felt guilty that maybe I had missed some huge "don't". I have horned frogs currently and don't claim to be an expert there either.
I don't want another frog to die or another person to feel the way that I did after she died for no reason.

 

[K412]

Not siding with Ed here, by any means, but is it common practice for the seller to be responsible for a necropsy performed prior to first contact. I can understand it if the seller was adamant about not sending a sick frog.

Check the copy of the pm that I posted where he states there was nothing wrong. The pm where he states there is no need to treat that frog is where I had asked him about treating the frog for Chytrid fungus because my ornate and cranwell have both been treated.
When is it ever okay to sell a sick animal?

 

[K412]

What was the appearance of the frog on arrival? Was it outwardly healthy? Lethargic? Perhaps more importantly, did you notice skin ulcerations and erosions when you unpacked it? How about posting the pics you took of her when she got there?
What was the date of the necropsy? It isn't clear to me whether the autolysis was the result of the infection, or the natural breakdown which occurs in dead tissue.

I don't know the habits of most frog sellers, but I know that nobody I have ever purchased from guarantees anything beyond live arrival for amphibians...and most of them don't even do that.

The frog appeared to be healthy on arrival. The frog was lethargic from the beginning. I put her up on the shelf to warm up and rest after having her soak to rehydrate after the shipping from NJ to VA. There was no outward appearance of abrasions or skin ulceration. Ed posted the thread that I made on fatfrogs after I got her. Here it is again. Her remains were immediately refrigerated when I found her deceased. The initial necropsy performed here in VA was done on August 15, 2008. My Vet said that she was unable to determine a cause of death and recommended sending the remains to Pathology. That was done on August 27, 2008 in CA by Drury Reavill D.V.M.

 

[jayefbe]

Ok, first you said that you asked about feeding the frog months prior, but you clearly asked a LOT of questions about feeding after you had already received the frog. It does not look like you had done your homework. Now, you may have studied up on it, but once you had the frog you were still in over your head.

Second, the necropsy indicates a number of lesions and ulcerations in the skin. Now, if the frog had been sent to you like that, there would be a problem. But all the pictures of the frog beforehand only show a healthy frog free from any aforementioned skin ailments. So what's the deal? Could the ulcerations and bacteria have occurred post-mortem? I mean, the frog was shipped to CA, so it's possible that improper shipping conditions led to an unreliable diagnosis. I may be wrong, please tell me if I am, but it does seem possible.

I used to breed and keep dart frogs, and have treated recent imports for chytrid. That does not kill a healthy frog in 24 hours either, even when taking into account stress from shipping. Plus, it is possible to detect chytrid fungus on a frog as it tends to leave noticeable spots. I just don't see how a frog with chytrid or bacterial infections could appear so healthy, and then die strictly from those causes a day later.

 

[K412]

Kelly Brown you have a very short memory and have left out some important facts.

The first frog I sent you an Ornate horned frog sat on your steps bakeing in the sun even after I sent you messages telling you that it would be there.
I took off work that day to be here when the frog arrived and it was DOA.
I have a strict live arrival only guarantee on frogs, this is an industry standard guarantee for frogs
I have never questioned your guarantee just your integrity.
I went above and beyond for you offering another frog with shipping paid by me.
I sent the initial payment for the ornate same day and offered to repay the difference on shipping but you said it was on you with pleasure.
You were very happy of my generious offer, I even allowed you to substitute for a CB Australian whites tree frog. this frog was 1 I was keeping for myself and was a perfect beautiful spotted CB.
I asked if you had any and you offered it to me, see the copy of the pm above.
The day you recieved it you were so happy you sent pm's telling me how nice it was. later on you sent a message asking if the frog falling on a rock would hurt it, next day you sent a message that the frog had died.
I asked if they could fall not that I saw it fall.
You made all kinds of threats, talking about the frog had bacteria and fungus etc. you can take a frog out of any collection and will find the same things.
My frogs aren't sick. I never threatened you I asked if it had been treated for chytrid.
Matter of fact you can test any living being. frogs, animals, humans and find a multitude of bacteria.
Of course but not the septic kind.
Kelly face up to it....you killed both of those frogs!!
First one was DOA and the second one was sick before I got her.
As far as abrasions? that frog had none or it would not have been shipped.
Not obvious to the naked eye.
You posted pics on fat frogs of a perfectly healthy frog with no abrasions the day you recieved it, why did you not mention that then?
She appeared to be healthy it doesn't mean that she was.
You asked what my guarantee was before you bought the frog and I told you I guarantee live arrival. you accepted that and payed me.

It didn't happen that way. I knew your guarantee because the first one was DOA. I never accepted then paid, I paid for the frog 2 months in advance basically.

 

[K412]

Can anyone show me the abrasions she claims that frog had on it?

I never claimed that she had abrasions on it. The necropsy report states that.

 

[K412]

What if the frog Ed sent isn't the one that got the necropsy? The vet said "There are areas of the skin with ulcerations and erosions" and I just don't see that from the pix.

Very strange.

There are no blue phase whites in my area, if there were then I would have gotten one here instead of having one shipped.

 

[K412]

I have no doubt at all that they are fragile, and judging by her questions in Ed's post you speak of, she has not got a clue to the proper care of these delicate animals.

As it looks right now, I do not see Ed is to blame on this one. It would be very hard to guarantee an animal like this in the hands of someone that has no clue to the proper care. I will also add, many people that sell amphibians have no guarantee at all. This would be a case that could explain why; Kelly needs to do her homework before getting another animal that she knows nothing about. JMHO.

I have other frogs and thoroughly researched their care.
I know very well how to keep them. I had 2 months to get everything just so.
i never said that he did not honor his guarantee.
I stated that he sold me a sick frog.

 

[K412]

The frog in the photos posted on fatfrogs looks pretty healthy to me. I do not see any abrasions or ulcers on the skin. If there was no guarantee on the sex and it arrived safely I think Ed lived up to his end of the transaction.

I kinda have a sick feeling in my stomach for siding with Ed on this one but the evidence supplied looks like he did his job. On another note I have purchased amphibians and had them shipped few people even offer live arrival guarantees..

There was no guarantee on the sex besides the pm that he sent me confirming that it was.
I'm sure that you know as well as I do that they hide their illnesses well until it's too late.

 

[K412]

I could not agree more John, but in all fairness Ed is not looking like he is to blame on this one.

As for that sick feeling you speak of, I get every time I see someone with an animal they just got, and then try to find out the proper care. It kinda burns me up to no end, just sad it all I can say about this.

Again, I had 2 months to research the proper care of these animals and I did so. I started via pm when Ed offered me the Whites as a replacement. I looked at pictures and thought they were cute so I said Ok.
I pm'd many keepers of these frogs on fatfrogs and other frog forums and compared care sheets, spoke to a breeder, and talked to people that I know personally who have kept them in the past.

 

[MiIguanaLvr]

There was no guarantee on the sex besides the pm that he sent me confirming that it was.
I'm sure that you know as well as I do that they hide their illnesses well until it's too late.

I guess my question to you then would be, do you think Ed Clark knew this was a sick animal and sent it anyway?
If the answer is no, how could anyone hold a seller responsible past their live guarantee for an illness in an animal that hides its illness until it is too late?

 

[K412]

I want to know what this girl did with the frog the day she got it? What did she do that made her worry that she had put it under too much stress that it died?

When I get a new snake, the thing sits in a cage in quarantine (which is also a low traffic area) and doesn't get touched for at least a week, or until it's fed. And when I had frogs they were never held, I always considered them a look but don't touch animal. Anyways, it looks like the girl has a guilty conscience and is trying to pin the blame on anyone else.

I soaked her in a room temp bath, put her on the shelf to warm up and left her alone.
I am obsessed with animal husbandry.
I am very particular in the way that I keep my animals and strive to make sure that I provide them with the best life that I possibly can.
When she died I felt guilty because I have never gotten an animal and had it die so quickly.
I had a guilty conscience and had the necriopsy done to preserve my conscience.
I am not blaming anyone, I am stating that Ed Clark sold me a sick animal.

 

[K412]

I guess my question to you then would be, do you think Ed Clark knew this was a sick animal and sent it anyway?
If the answer is no, how could anyone hold a seller responsible past their live guarantee for an illness in an animal that hides its illness until it is too late?

I cannot say with 100% certainty that he knew the frog was ill.
Now that I am aware of his reputation combined with the fact that he stated on more than one occasion it was without a doubt male, he chose a lethargic female to send instead of the one that he initially picked out for me in June.
That is purely a guess based on his reputation.
I "met" him on fatfrogs. Purchasing a frog from him was the first online purchase of an animal that I have ever made.
I had no knowledge that this forum existed until it was pionted out to me by another membr of fatfrogs. Then the pm's started rolling about his business practices.
I hold him accountable because he had stated on tttf in reference to another dissatisfied customer that if an acute death took place and was not the customers fault that he would honor his guarantee.
Whether he does or not is not the point. I don't want another animal to die.

 

[K412]

The bottom line is not the necropsy Kelly; this is clear in the fact that you contacted Ed after you received the frog asking questions on the proper care. I do not know, nor do I care how long you have kept frogs, however, if you are the expert that you claim to be, then you should have been wise enough to do the homework on the proper care long before making the purchase of a new animal.

A good keeper does the homework first, and if you would have done yours the frog might still be alive with no need of a necropsy. I will also add, you say the humidity in the enclosure was at 60%, which is not true, the pictures show the paper towels are very soaked and sopping wet. You are in the wrong place to try to pull the wool over eyes. You claimed the frog was awesome, then it went down hill in your care, and that’s the true bottom line.

The bottom line is the necropsy report because it states that she was septic.
That did not happen in a day. Her liver was not noted to have necrosis because I spilled some of the water from the bowl onto the floor of the cage.
I did plenty of research about their care as stated above.
I will take pictures and post the report because I don't have a scanner unless you would like me to mail it to yourself or another member with one. I will gladly oblige.

 

[K412]

60% humidity? HA! Riiight.
Sadly I wouldn't be surprised if that poor frog drowned in that cage with all of that water. Poor thing.

The humidity ws at 60%. I stated that clearly on the tttf thread.
The frog was never submirsed in water. I spilled the water from the bowl onto the bottom by accident.
The reason that everything appears soaked is because I misted it just prior to taking the pictures.