Ed Clark,don't buy frogs from him!

[crazyfroglady]

I think this horse is dead, Jamie. Ed is going to stick to his TOS to the letter, which is his right. Just because you (not you personally) don't agree with it, it is his TOS, which the buyer agreed to upon entering into a transaction with Ed.

Disclaimer: That doesn't mean I agree (or disagree) with Ed's TOS (I've never read them).

It may be felt he has a moral obligation to replace Kelly's frog, unfortunately moral obligations are not binding are are subject to the character of the person morally obligated.

Ed's already shown what outstanding character he has.

Kelly is not going to get a refund (if she does I'd fall over in a dead faint) and anybody reading this can tell just what they are dealing with if they decide to buy anything from Ed.

You're right I'm tired of beating the dead horse. This is not about replacing a frog it is about him selling sick frogs knowingly or not. And being on the board of inquiry it is to inform people who may have just bought or are thinking about buying a frog from ed. I'm defending kelly who does not deserve all the things she was accused of.

 

[jayefbe]

Frogs can keel over so what appears to be no reason. You could have the healthiest group of frogs one day, ship them out, and some are bound to die. It's kinda the way things work with amphibians, and is a risk that everyone has to take.

Again, one person that read the necropsy (did not perform the necropsy) said that the inflamed liver is what killed the frog when the necropsy did not state that was the case. Ok, that's not enough evidence for me.

There's no evidence that whatever caused the inflamed liver (if that is indeed what killed it) is contagious. There's literally a plethora of different things that can cause inflammation of the liver, and most of them are not contagious. Until the tests have been performed and come back positive, stop throwing accusations around!

You keep stating that it's a FACT that the frog was sick, but it is far from FACT. It's thirdhand speculation at best!

 

[LakesideBoas]

Why should Ed care about crossing those lines in the sand after Rick is already on his side of the line slapping him in the face?
(I do see what was wrong with his response.)

To me, that was like retaliating to the slap in the face by pulling out a gun.

 

[jayefbe]

You're right I'm tired of beating the dead horse. This is not about replacing a frog it is about him selling sick frogs knowingly or not. And being on the board of inquiry it is to inform people who may have just bought or are thinking about buying a frog from ed. I'm defending kelly who does not deserve all the things she was accused of.

There's no evidence that the frog was sick. Stop acting like it's a fact that he sent a sick frog because it isn't. It appears that there are many more thriving frogs out there than "sick" ones. Nobody is blaming K412 for the frog's death (at least, I'm not). I am defending Ed, not because I think he deserves it, but because I feel like he is being prosecuted without due trial. This is his livelihood, and it's simply unfair to throw out accusations without any evidence backing them up.

 

[LakesideBoas]

You're right I'm tired of beating the dead horse. This is not about replacing a frog it is about him selling sick frogs knowingly or not. And being on the board of inquiry it is to inform people who may have just bought or are thinking about buying a frog from ed. I'm defending kelly who does not deserve all the things she was accused of.

This thread will serve to inform any who think about purchasing from Ed in the future. I guess that is kind of Kelly's "refund". Not quite what she was after, but maybe some good can come out of it.

I think Ed's own actions in this thread will serve as a guide as well.

I'm not defending either one of them.

 

[RJK890]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJK890
Why should Ed care about crossing those lines in the sand after Rick is already on his side of the line slapping him in the face?
(I do see what was wrong with his response.)

Quote Lakeside:
To me, that was like retaliating to the slap in the face by pulling out a gun.

I agree, and found Ed's reply to be unnecessarily cruel.
Richard did throw the first stone though, and Ed threw a much larger stone back at him. It was unnecessary but when slapped in the face some people may turn the other cheek, some will hit you back, and others may pull out a gun. I guess you should be careful who you slap.

 

[crazyfroglady]

There's no evidence that the frog was sick. Stop acting like it's a fact that he sent a sick frog because it isn't. It appears that there are many more thriving frogs out there than "sick" ones. Nobody is blaming K412 for the frog's death (at least, I'm not). I am defending Ed, not because I think he deserves it, but because I feel like he is being prosecuted without due trial. This is his livelihood, and it's simply unfair to throw out accusations without any evidence backing them up.

If you say so frog expert well then I believe you. You keep saying you're not blaming her for the frogs death but that's exactly what you were doing earlier by accusing her of her humidity being too high. WHICH WAS NOT THE CASE! So stop acting like you're being objective in the matter because you're not.

Ok, first you said that you asked about feeding the frog months prior, but you clearly asked a LOT of questions about feeding after you had already received the frog. It does not look like you had done your homework. Now, you may have studied up on it, but once you had the frog you were still in over your head.

Second, the necropsy indicates a number of lesions and ulcerations in the skin. Now, if the frog had been sent to you like that, there would be a problem. But all the pictures of the frog beforehand only show a healthy frog free from any aforementioned skin ailments. So what's the deal? Could the ulcerations and bacteria have occurred post-mortem? I mean, the frog was shipped to CA, so it's possible that improper shipping conditions led to an unreliable diagnosis. I may be wrong, please tell me if I am, but it does seem possible.

I used to breed and keep dart frogs, and have treated recent imports for chytrid. That does not kill a healthy frog in 24 hours either, even when taking into account stress from shipping. Plus, it is possible to detect chytrid fungus on a frog as it tends to leave noticeable spots. I just don't see how a frog with chytrid or bacterial infections could appear so healthy, and then die strictly from those causes a day later.

I'm going to bed. I'm tired of arguing with you. Have fun battling this one out with yourself.

 

[jayefbe]

Crazyfroglady - I was pointing out inconsistencies in her story. A lot of things didn't add up and it appeared as though she still had a guilty conscience over everything; it looked as though she was hiding something. In fact, there are still questions about the frog's death that I'd still like answered. K said that she last saw the frog alive 30-45 minutes before it died. Did the frog have the white secretions on its back the last time it was seen alive? Or did those secretions form in the 30-45 minutes that K was away from the frog? I don't think K is personally responsible for the frog's death, but the situation continues to be a little fishy. I'm sorry if she couldn't handle the interrogations of BOI, but if one comes here making strong accusations they should expect everything to be sifted with a fine tooth comb.

When I began reading this thread I did so with no prior knowledge about K412 or the situation at all. I did, on the other hand, know about Ed's bad reputation. Initially, I thought K was another person screwed over by Ed, but as time went on it appeared as though Ed had upheld his end of the deal and unfortunately, through no fault of his own, the frog died. I began posting when it appeared that Ed was being unfairly blamed for the frog's death.

I'm being objective in that my opinions are based on the few facts of the situation. There is no evidence indicating that Ed is selling sick frogs and I will continue to point that out as long as you continue to make accusations without any evidence. I've heard a number of different theories as to what killed the frog, and so far, none have panned out (bacteria? fungus? hepatitis?). In the mean time, a few customers have come forward stating that they have been sent perfectly healthy frogs. Ed's claim to have sent healthy collections of frogs to a zoo has been substantiated. On top of that, nobody else has come forward complaining of frogs dying shortly after arrival.

There is a possibility that Ed's frog was ill with a highly contagious disease, but as more information comes forward it is appearing to be less and less likely the case. If you are continuing to defame Ed's name (not that it is held in high esteem in the first place) as a service to the amphibian and herp community at large, then I applaud your devotion even if I think it is misguided. But instead, I think your emotions in regard to Ed (he is a jerk) have clouded your judgment, and has led to you grasping at straws when it comes to defending your accusations.

 

[TrulyRare]

The way I look at it, If I bought an item from someone, and it died, I sent it off, and ..it had something, that wasn't my fault. I feel that a refund would be in place. BUT since I have better things to do than read 82 pages LOL, I'm assuming this was the case, and I would have felt bad for the froggy, as much as the girl who bought it. I don't know how she was to prevent, an animal she had for just barely 24 hours from dying, from a diease, that would take more than "say 24" hours to kill it. But, hey, I'm not expert.

 

[jayefbe]

The way I look at it, If I bought an item from someone, and it died, I sent it off, and ..it had something, that wasn't my fault. I feel that a refund would be in place. BUT since I have better things to do than read 82 pages LOL, I'm assuming this was the case, and I would have felt bad for the froggy, as much as the girl who bought it. I don't know how she was to prevent, an animal she had for just barely 24 hours from dying, from a diease, that would take more than "say 24" hours to kill it. But, hey, I'm not expert.

If this was the case, then yes, she should be at least justified in asking for a refund. But a lot happened in those 82 pages and it is unclear what killed the frog.

 

[TrulyRare]

Ahhhh..... okies

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

Ed, Ed, Ed, you slap like a little bitch. But I expected something like that to come out of you. It's amazing how when the pressure is on, you always manage to find something low down and slimy to toss in there in an attempt to dodge the issue, and turn the direction of the thread. I'm surprised after so many failed attempts at this ruse, that you still attempt it. Don't you learn?
I made a poor choice. Me and My beloved pet paid a price for that mistake. But still, unlike you, I owned my part of that mistake. Did I blame others, or did I say I made a stupid choice? Can you make such a claim Ed?
I challenge you to go find a customer of mine that has received a less then healthy animal, or a lie that I've been caught in. When you find that, you are more then welcome to start your own thread about me. But in the mean time, this one has YOUR name on it, along with a host of other threads. Hmmm. Is it because we are picking on you again Ed? Or is there something just a bit deeper going on.

See Ed, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt with my silence. Didn't want you to think that my dislike for you would affect my ability to be rational and fair, or that I was going after you just because it's an easy thing to do. It's your constant flat denial that brought me out. Simple as that. Try owning one of your many mistakes for a change, and I'd likely be less persistent in pointing those mistakes out to everyone. Honest (Me), dishonest (you) See the major difference there Ed?

I agree, and found Ed's reply to be unnecessarily cruel.
Richard did throw the first stone though, and Ed threw a much larger stone back at him. It was unnecessary but when slapped in the face some people may turn the other cheek, some will hit you back, and others may pull out a gun. I guess you should be careful who you slap.

Ed don't fight back though. He kicks you down low, then runs away. If he'd stand and fight like the man he portrays himself to be, I'd likely have more respect for him. But he attacks from behind. As for the gun comment. He's welcome to try that if he wishes, or you if you feel the need. Just understand, it's been tried before, I'm still here.


Slaps just like a girl.

 

[Laura Fopiano]

Very critical words Richard!

These come from an idiot that cant keep his own affairs in order but he will tell others how to keep their affairs in order.

He is so stupid he leaves an adult albino boa in his car in 100* heat and someone comes along and steals it, then he cries about it.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111688&page=1&pp=5

OH MY GOD!!!! DID YOU TYPE THAT WITH A STRAIGHT FACE?????

Ed there have been times when I have tried to give you the benefit of the doubt and have even managed to stay out of your "bad guy" threads. But this so-called throwing a bigger stone back was not only a low blow, but probably one of the worst come backs that I have read here in almost 2 years!!!!

Rick is a dear friend of mine, the kind of friend that puts their own grief aside to check on a friend that almost bled out in the hospital after a routine surgery gone wrong. That's what Rick did for me...I cried on the phone when he told what happened to Aurora, but he was more concerned with my health and wellfare.

Sorry to take this thread off topic as I did, I adore frogs and toads. I am fortunate enough to hear them sing every night, to find toads every day and watch the tad pole's grow into frogs and baby toads in my own back yard.

Ed where are your vet reports? Where are your pictures of tad poles growing into froglets? Oh wait...you refused to post the pics and I may be going out on a limb to say that you refuse to post them because there aren't any!

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

I think that post will have a longer lasting effect on Ed, then it had on me.

Thanks for the kindness though.

 

[jusmebabee]

Shrap,
If you want to compare your grandparent to a snake that's your choice.
When was the last time you left a child or dog in 100 degree heat??
I don't know Ed and won't be sending my money his way. My only point is if your going to sling mud then don't be suprised when some of it hit's you in the face..

 

[rabernet]

Very critical words Richard!

These come from an idiot that cant keep his own affairs in order but he will tell others how to keep their affairs in order.

He is so stupid he leaves an adult albino boa in his car in 100* heat and someone comes along and steals it, then he cries about it.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111688&page=1&pp=5

Wow Ed - the depths of low that you stoop to are mind-boggling. You came up short on the empathy, morality and ethics genes, didn't you? Always the victim, never responsible for your own actions, and never sincere.

I knew when I received this PM here from you that a leopard doesn't change its spots, but it's probably the only time you admitted to ever being in the wrong. This PM wasn't that sincere either, since days later it was discovered you tried to bypass your ban on BP.net and join under a new name.

http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?p=817644#post817644

06-23-2008, 11:06 PM

Ed Clark
Life Long Baller.

Hi

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Robin, long overdue. but wanted to apoligize for my past bad behavior....sorry.

 

[akaangela]

Originally Posted by Ed Clark
Very critical words Richard!

These come from an idiot that cant keep his own affairs in order but he will tell others how to keep their affairs in order.

He is so stupid he leaves an adult albino boa in his car in 100* heat and someone comes along and steals it, then he cries about it.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/for...688&page=1&pp=5


That was a low blow. I honestly only read half of all the posts and know nothing about frogs, but that post got my dander up. I have retyped my responce several times... All I will say is man you fight dirty and I m SO glad I have never gotten anything from you and I will NEVER buy from you.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Frogs don't... hide illnesses, as a rule. An active infection that's damaging the heath of the animal is pretty apparant in a very short time frame. I have no idea where this "they hide illnesses" stuff is coming from but it's blatantly untrue.

The stress placed on an animal by the shipping process and whatever handling or environmental conditions it is experiencing can cause a relatively passive bacteria load to turn into something more agressive and unchecked, but this would not have been apparant to Ed at the time of shipping and the frog would not be visibly sick.

Tissue breakdown in amphibians is extremely rapid after death, a necropsy isn't worthless but it is certainly worth less than it is for other types of animals. Inherently predisposed towards being less accurate to begin with, the second round of shipping and unknown timelines and conditions make the validity of firm conclusions questionable.

Humidity is water that is present in vapor form in the air. It is possible for an enclosure to be wet- covered in liquid- but still not humid. One does naturally link to the other but they are not automatically mutually inclusive, it's just very probable that the humidity was above the normal range for keeping the species. That said, soaking wet is worse than too humid when it comes to bacterial blooms, fungal growth, a reabsorbtion of waste matter through the skin, the spreading of various household chemical toxins and so on.

While it's not as good as a firsthand inspection, she looks to be in decent health from what was photographed in the shots upon arrival. Timpanic roll is within a healthy range, not obese but far from underweight, no discoloration or heavy sloughing of the waxy cuticle, clean clear eyes, nose and mouth, no visible abrasions, normal posture and body position for a whites that's awake and horizontal.

I wish there was a copy regarding how you inquired about the gender- the wording of Ed's PMed response seems to indicate that it was a response to a question and he qualified his answer with the reasoning behind the determination. The females very, very rarely call and it's widely considered to be an acceptabally accurate (while falling lower than 100%) method of casual sexing for the species.

Out of curiosity, how many frogs have died under the care of the thread starter out of how many owned? Which species have died, after how long and in what conditions?

The focus should have been on:

1. Ed sent out one frog that he had to replace because it was shipped improperly and suffered a dislocated limb (he shipped the replacement without a question because it was clear that he was at fault and not out of the goodness of his heart).

2. He shipped Kelly a frog that was DOA, and accused the OP of leaving the frog to bake in the sun. Kelly says that she has proof that she was home (can be posted with the personal information marked out, Kelly). I believe that I recall that the frog was shipped improperly also so it's possible that it was injured in the shipping.

3. The replacement frog that he shipped Kelly died within 24 hours. Looking at the picture and researching and looking at pics of healthy frogs...I still say that the frog does NOT look healthy to me. The eyes are a bit more sunken into the head, it doesn't have a bright look to the eyes..and projecting here...the eyes look down right SAD to me (humor me folks). I also noticed when Bobby blew up the pics that one limb was much redder than the others. It could be something, could be nothing...but...I sided with the OP because of those small bits that I gleaned and the fact that she had no priors.

4. Ed said the Zoo tested his animals...no proof was shown but he did prove that he sold animals to the zoo and the zoo said that they are doing well..however..further thought...still no proof of the rest of Ed's claims.

5. He was praised for breeding his own frogs, yet even I, with my makeshift facilities, am proud enough to post pictures. I don't understand why he doesn't post pictures if he actually does breed them and they are as healthy as he says?? Now, so much time has passed that if he does produce pictures, I am going to wonder what took so long...was he cleaning up?

6. Kelly herself mentioned in one post that it was possible that Ed sent a frog that didn't look as well as the first one (but this line of thought petered out when she asked me what I was referring to).

7. Ed himself taunted the boards when he said, "Let the big dogs hunt." To me, that seemed as if he was gleeful because he thought he " got away" this time..the sly fox.

 

[crazyfroglady]

Crazyfroglady - I was pointing out inconsistencies in her story. A lot of things didn't add up and it appeared as though she still had a guilty conscience over everything; it looked as though she was hiding something. In fact, there are still questions about the frog's death that I'd still like answered. K said that she last saw the frog alive 30-45 minutes before it died. Did the frog have the white secretions on its back the last time it was seen alive? Or did those secretions form in the 30-45 minutes that K was away from the frog? I don't think K is personally responsible for the frog's death, but the situation continues to be a little fishy. I'm sorry if she couldn't handle the interrogations of BOI, but if one comes here making strong accusations they should expect everything to be sifted with a fine tooth comb.

When I began reading this thread I did so with no prior knowledge about K412 or the situation at all. I did, on the other hand, know about Ed's bad reputation. Initially, I thought K was another person screwed over by Ed, but as time went on it appeared as though Ed had upheld his end of the deal and unfortunately, through no fault of his own, the frog died. I began posting when it appeared that Ed was being unfairly blamed for the frog's death.

I'm being objective in that my opinions are based on the few facts of the situation. There is no evidence indicating that Ed is selling sick frogs and I will continue to point that out as long as you continue to make accusations without any evidence. I've heard a number of different theories as to what killed the frog, and so far, none have panned out (bacteria? fungus? hepatitis?). In the mean time, a few customers have come forward stating that they have been sent perfectly healthy frogs. Ed's claim to have sent healthy collections of frogs to a zoo has been substantiated. On top of that, nobody else has come forward complaining of frogs dying shortly after arrival.

There is a possibility that Ed's frog was ill with a highly contagious disease, but as more information comes forward it is appearing to be less and less likely the case. If you are continuing to defame Ed's name (not that it is held in high esteem in the first place) as a service to the amphibian and herp community at large, then I applaud your devotion even if I think it is misguided. But instead, I think your emotions in regard to Ed (he is a jerk) have clouded your judgment, and has led to you grasping at straws when it comes to defending your accusations.

Atleast you can admit there's a possibility. And what information has came forward from ED. The only information I know of is the information that was posted by k412. For example the med examiner report and the Herpetologist. They both said the frog was sick. I'm going with the experts on this one not some guy who doesn't own a whites who thinks the frog was healthy. IMO the frog was sick. If you don't like it because my opinion doesn't match up with yours I don't know what to tell you.

 

[LakesideBoas]

As for the gun comment. He's welcome to try that if he wishes, or you if you feel the need. Just understand, it's been tried before, I'm still here.


Slaps just like a girl.

What I meant by my "gun comment" was I felt his retaliation to your "slap" to be overkill. If someone slaps a person ordinarily they slap back. Most people expect that before they slap someone. They do not expect to get their head blown off.

I would never use a firearm over something as petty as a verbal b*tch-slap.

I know with my naive attitude you'll be reading about me in the paper as close as I live the Chicago.